You're right... this woman is being extremely rude and she is damaging the reputations of true service dogs.

What exactly is the purpose of this "service dog" she has? Can it actually preform any services?

I don't know what to tell you honestly. I honestly can say that I greatly dislike people like the woman you have described.

 

Unfortunately the law may be too liberal. If the dog is trained to preform tasks as an accommodation to a disability, it has public access right. However, there are limits to poorly trained dogs that foul public places or are aggressive. You may want to do some reading at www.iaadp.org

Those people dragging glorified pets into public places are the enemy of those with dogs trained to assist them. Self training is legal. However, a school with team of professionals can produce much better dogs. If you are impaired, a trained dog from a school is the best option. Each school has its own financial arraingements. The dog guide school we raise puppies for will send people a plane ticket, pick them up at the airport, put them up in the dorm, train them, furnish the dog, harness, lead, etc. Cost? 0 Obgligations? 0 Many of the dog users do participate in fundraisers and promoting the program. I frequently work with many of them it those activities.

 

If you are impaired, a trained dog from a school is the best option.

I disagree. There are many many well trained service animals that are HOT (Handler Owner Trained). Mine is one of them.

If you have no dog experience, then yes, a trained dog from a school can be a better option, but this is not always true.

And not ALL service orgs charge "0". And the wait lists can be EXTREMELY long...not everybody has 3-4 years to wait for their independence.

That said, this person needs to have a stuffed animal, not a dog.

Little dogs can make WONDERFUL assistance dogs for people, and the first non guide dog I ever saw was a Papillon! He helped his owner reach things on shelves (she even grabbed a bunch of bananas from the counter) and picked things up off the floor. The large breeds were too obtrusive for the handler, so a Papillon is what she got. Marvelous little dog.

It sounds like this person is an imposter.

If you want to ask what the dog is trained to do for tasks, that is perfectly legal. You cannot ask her what her disability is, but you can ask what the dog is trained for. You can even ask for specifics of those tasks.

 

Tell her plainly that the big box store you work at is not certified as a service dog trainer. Tell her that you are not a service dog trainer. I know you already have, but you need to say it in no uncertain terms, and stop allowing her dog in your class. Stop giving her attention. When she demands more attention, send her to the manager and walk away. Remember, you reward good behavior and ignore bad behavior. And no, this is not a nice person.

 

Tell her that Pomeranians are very smart dogs but they require a smart & patient owner to train them.

 

ROFL Now THAT would be fun to say to her!

 

I wonder if this woman has am emotional/mental issue. Some people have service dogs to comfort them in stressful situations. Although many people use this as an excuse to take their dog into stores. You can train your own service dog. As Xeph said, it can take years and ALOT of money to get a service dog. They can cost $50,000. I am severely visualy impaired and qualify for a guide dog but I can't afford one and don't need a dog trained to the extent that a totally blind person does. Max suits my needs perfectly. A shelter dog that I trained.

 

I actually know what she claims as her disability, I just didn't feel like I should share something like that even if I'm not saying her name. I did ask her what tasks he performs, or what ones she wants him to do (thinking that I might be able to direct her to someone more experienced if I knew what she needed). All she was able to answer me was that petting him calms her down, which I'm pretty sure is not a "trained task", in the sense she doesn't give him a command to provide tactile stimulation or whatever, and he responds. It's more her picking him up and holding him like a doll.

What she really wants is "for him to you know, be trained well enough to follow her outside of a leash".

Thank you so much, even if I can't figure out a direct way to deal with the problem, it's nice to know I'm not alone in thinking this is both annoying and wrong.

I'm currently just trying to think of ways to get her to give him to a breed specific rescue, instead of trying to sell him on craigslist, which is her plan.

 

I have to agree with Max's Mom.

I have a friend who has a small, very untrained, mini foxie. She has three children with Autistic Spectrum Disorders and in order to have him in their home the childrens' therapist offered to write a statement supporting the fact that Jasper is a 'service dog' because he has an uncanny ability to calm them.

I am hoping to work with Jonah to achieve a much more interactive calming service for my own daughter (also autistic, although high functioning). It'll require work, and he'll never really be accepted as a 'service dog' by anyone, but that's what I'm hoping he'll eventually be.

Depending on the disability that this woman has, you may find it difficult to reason with her. If she is autistic, I would seriously consider other ways to help yourself cope. She'll be too stuck in her own way of thinking to acknowledge that the problem may be her own. I do hope that you can convince her that a breed specific rescue will be the best option for him.

There really should be laws against people being allowed to adopt and discard dogs at will. It infuriates me when someone adopts a dog, doesn't train it and then assumes the dog is damaged goods and then discards it like it was nothing.

 

What she really wants is "for him to you know, be trained well enough to follow her outside of a leash".

I know you have tried to explain it to her, but that is far from what a service dog actually is.

Thank you so much, even if I can't figure out a direct way to deal with the problem, it's nice to know I'm not alone in thinking this is both annoying and wrong.

You are not alone in your thinking. This could be one of the most annoying situations I've read about on this forum. I wish I had more advice to offer you.

I'm currently just trying to think of ways to get her to give him to a breed specific rescue, instead of trying to sell him on craigslist, which is her plan.

The only thing worse than an owner that doesn't accept their role in getting a dog to behave properly is one that sells it on the internet to recoup their costs.

I'm sorry that I have no advice to give you. It sounds like you are dealing with a person that in her mind already has it figured out. As a college instructor who deals with students like this every semester, I can tell you that I feel for you, and I'll pray for you in this situation and for the dog to find the right home.

 

people with anxiety issues can have service dogs who's main function is to offer comfort to their owner. The dog might not be trained to perform any other duties. That said, they need to be potty trained at the absolute least and socialized around other dogs and people of all shapes and sizes.

I believe there are a lot of people who abuse this situation. I used to train service dogs for lower functioning recipients. It would annoy me when people who just thought it was cool to have a dog go places with them would apply. Needless to say, they got put to the bottom of the list and it would have taken years before they would have got a dog. Thankfully, most of them got sick of waiting and moved on.

 

I was under the impression a service dog had to pass some sort of certification before it has right of public access? Safetry of the public and all that.

 

No. When you bring a dog into a store, the only rights a store has is to ask you "Is she a service animal?" and "Are you disabled". And the only answer you have to give is Yes/No answers, you don't have to explain yourself to anyone. If they try to ask for further information, you can ignore them and if they persist, call the police on the store.

 

I don't know much about what to do with this woman, but I do have a suggestion from personal expereince about what to do with the dog.

I fostered a Great Dane who was wildly out of control and meant to be a "service dog" for an autistic boy that was absolutely terrified of him. The family was taking him to the vet to be euthanized when I saw them and paid $20 to take him home. I rehomed him with an amazing trainer who has given him a lot of guidance and a chance at life as a loving pet.

If you're worried about this dog ending up on craiglist then this could be a possiblity. If you can take the dog from here and not necesarilly keep it but ensure that it goes to a breed specific rescue or to an owner who can handle him, it would at least do some good. I know this is not for everybody and is a little extreme, but if you feel like it's something you could handle, I would consider it. At least it saves this dog (who I think you said is not fixed? Would be a puppy mill's dream!), even if the woman's thinking is not changed.

 

As I said in my first post, the law is very liberal. A dog doesn't need to be certified. A store or someplace is allowed to ask what the dog is trained to do. If it isn't trained to do specific tasks, it isn't a service dog. There are psychological support dogs, but I couldn't findmy link to more info on them. They don't have the full rights of a service dog.

This is very difficult for stores and such. They can get in trouble for both denying access and letting the wrong dog in.

 

Thank you for the advice and sympathy everyone. I spoke with my manager today, and while there's nothing we can do at the moment, as she has paid in full for her class and hasn't violated any rules. I have been assured that were she to come back in for a second class, I would not need to teach her, and the class would go to the other trainer in the store (I feel bad for her, but she really doesn't care as much about this kinda' thing...so it'll probably be fine). I spoke with the woman on the phone about the possibility of taking the dog (thank you for the idea!), but unless I have 800$ she refuses. I tried to also convince her to neuter him before she sells him, but she also declined, saying people would pay more for him if he wasn't fixed. So the poor little guy is pretty much stuck. I did get it into her head that maybe her family would want the dog, so I'm hoping she'll try that..though if they're anything like her maybe it would be best to not...

As to her disability, she is not autistic. This dog does nothing in the way of service except provide her with a fashion accessory. I feel terrible for not taking the dog, but I just don't have that kind of money, it would be detrimental to my own dog (it would have to be taken out of his emergency vet fund) and I won't do that.

I think I'm just going to tell her where she can find an ethical breeder (she has settled on getting a mini poodle), and then just getting away from the whole situation.

Thanks for the link labs, that was really helpful!

 

As to her disability, she is not autistic. This dog does nothing in the way of service except provide her with a fashion accessory

So she's a Paris Hilton type of woman? You know, that's a pretty severe disability...but not one that should allow dog ownership of any sort. I think I'd much rather be autistic (which I am) than someone that sees dogs as a fashion accessory.

What are the chances that the breeder you choose will refuse to sell this woman one of their puppies? What would the woman do? If you gave her a list of reputable breeders that refused to sell to her, do you think she'd understand after a while? Do the breeders over there screen portential owners for suitability often (I find they don't here in Australia). Or would she merely turn to craigslist?

 

I hope this doesnt come off rude, but I have read the whole thread and in regards to service dogs....Disabled people are issued special permits for parking why couldnt they be issued special tags for their dogs?

I get very annoyed when people bring their dogs into places where they should not be...with the exception of service dogs. I dont take my dogs to the grocery store so why should someone else do it. And I dont work now but I used to work for a store that sold all types of things, food included and our manager never told anyone they couldnt bring their dogs in (service or not) There was a lady who used to come in with her big dog sometimes (not all the time) and one day it got very close to brushing up against my leg...as a reaction I stepped back, it was a lab and my husband is allergic to dogs and labs are the worst. She got all offended and gave me crap saying her dog was friendly and I am over reacting and blah blah blah...when the bottom line is he shouldnt have even been in the store. Anyways now I am rambling LOL.

 

Hang on...are you guys actually saying you're technically allowed to take dogs into these places?

In Australia I've seen people asked to either leave the dog outside or leave themselves. We often see dogs tied up outside of grocery stores and corner shops because you can't take them in there. I'm pretty sure the owners/managers can ask that you not bring the dog in.

Misty I don't think that issuing permits for dogs is rude or offensive. I quite like that idea. Most service dogs are trained for their specific purposes so getting a permit could be issued when the dog is handed over to the new owner. But for those other dogs that provide comfort and psychological support, perhaps a letter from a psychiatrist (or some other form of assessment) could suffice in allowing a permit to be granted. And of course, dogs should have a clean bill of health, C5 vaccinations up to date, good temperament and trained in at least basic skills, before a permit is issued to dogs that haven't been specifically trained for a service.

Is there already something like this in place? It would certainly make sense to put something in place...much more effective for a shop assistant to ask to see a permit for a dog in question, than to just ask 'is this a service dog?'

 

Hang on...are you guys actually saying you're technically allowed to take dogs into these places?

You are not allowed to take dogs in to places like stores etc, but people do...I have seen them in purses, strollers, shopping carts and just being carried.

 

Hang on...are you guys actually saying you're technically allowed to take dogs into these places?

Service dogs, yes. Not just any dog. Some people can lie and say that their dog is a service dog, that's true too. But that's not very frequent.

And if I may speak frankly (I'm not offended or trying to be hostile to anyone). The decision of what is and is not legal, what should and should not be done, is none of anyone's business but that of the disabled. We (the disabled) will decide what is OK and what is not. And we, the disabled decided this is how the law should be.

Those who are not disabled have no concept of what we have to deal with. Good intentions, maybe, but to be honest, I really don't care what intentions are. We know what is best for ourselves, and this is the judgment we have made. We don't need someone else trying to tell us they know better, because simply put, they do not. Their perception of the world is only that of someone who is not disabled. They will never see the world the way we do.

 

And if I may speak frankly (I'm not offended or trying to be hostile to anyone). The decision of what is and is not legal, what should and should not be done, is none of anyone's business but that of the disabled. We (the disabled) will decide what is OK and what is not. And we, the disabled decided this is how the law should be.

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying that for me.
I don't think many people will be offended by your thinking. I know that each disabled community views things differently, and that each individual within that community is different. As I said, I am autistic, and while most of the time I appear 'normal' there are days when there is obviously something 'wrong' with me according to societal norms.

I have to disagree, in the most respectful way as I don't want to get into an argument, that disabled people should decide what is legal and what isn't legal. Everything else you said I agree with 100%. But for minority groups to develop their own laws without taking into consideration the rest of the community would cause chaos. The disability movement has really pushed for some great things in the past, but I believe that the push for equality and acceptance of diversity needs to be that...a push (albeit not such a hard one!). [edit] I just re-read that sentence and wanted to slap myself...what I meant to say was "the disability movement has really pushed for some great things in the past, but I believe that laws should be made with the input of all communities effected by a decision...in this case the abled and disabled communities".

My only concern with service dogs and permits is that certain people will take advantage of the fact that permits are not currently needed and will take dogs anywhere they like and lie to be able to do so.

Having said all this, one of my biggest issues is dealing with injustice and inequality. I hate (I mean absolutely detest, loathe and hate to the very core of my soul) the way that so many people lie to get their own way and manipulate the world. It's a personal issue (stemming from the fact that a) I can't lie well, and b) I can't tell if people are lying) and one that probably drives my interest in a permit system. I know that Jonah will never be a true service dog and I wouldn't get a permit for him, as much as I'd want to, but the fact is when we chose him I did take into consideration the possibility that he could acquire a similar skill-set.

 

We have the ADA that requires the disabled to be admitted anywhere the public is and with what ever accommodations they require, ramps, elevators curb cuts, whatever including service animals. Certifications are available for dogs, but some feel it is an imposition to have to show ID where others don't. The service dog schools issue ID tags for the dogs and a photo ID for the person. They also are given a pocket digest of the state laws. They still get turned away sometimes. If they sue, they win.

In general, pets aren't allowed around food, excluded from grocery stores and restaurants, but I think by a patchwork of state and local laws. The puppies we foster for service dog schools are a gray area. Perhaps I do need a psych support dog, but there is no such diagnosis. Since the puppies aren't an accommodation for a disability, the ADA doesn't apply. We are given service dog tags for them. That exempts them from the laws prohibiting pets. We are very seldom turned away if we have a chance to talk to somebody with some authority.

 

I like the tag idea. That seems pretty good.

I guess each state/com munity can decide to deal with it in a different manner.

 

The service dog schools issue ID tags for the dogs and a photo ID for the person. They also are given a pocket digest of the state laws.

I'm sure you know this, but as a general statement so there's no misunderstanding. Some (not all) service dog schools issue tags, others don't. This is debated hotly. The problem a lot of people have with service ID's is that it fosters misunderstanding.

One person goes into Target, and is stopped. They show their service dog ID. Later, another person goes, and is stopped again. They don't show their ID. The store thinks they are supposed to have ID (based on previous interaction). You can see where that would cause issues.

Same thing for answering questions. A lot of people will instruct you that you should not ever answer any questions other than the 2 legal ones they are allowed to ask. That way, in the future, the store does not think it's in their right to ask more than those two questions.

I, personally, am of the belief that they have absolutely no right to stop me, at all. I do not need to show ID. My dog does not need to have special leashes or special vests. Fortunately for me, with the exception of them being allowed to ask me only two questions, there is no law that requires me to have ID's, special leashes, or vests.

 

Hey, R, this is slightly off topic, but if I recall correctly, you were planning on training Priscilla as a hearing dog. Are you in the market for another companion who could serve in that same capacity?

 

I am, yes. But circumstance does not allow it at the moment. My next dog is going to be a German Shepherd, or Flat Coated Retriever. The goal will be the same, if the dog is capable.

So what if I can't see the world exactly the way a disabled person can?

I can't see it the way a woman can either.

I also can't see it in the way a person with a dog phobia would either, but I could see the fear and shaking the woman in front of me at petsmart was doing during her panic attack when I got in line behind her with a large GSD this afternoon. When a big dog came out of the grooming shop at the other end of the checkout aisle I had to take my dogs away, I thought she was going to climb over the register.

People can empathize and do, and it's not all about disabled people, we are a society of all kinds of people. Some are scared to death of any dog, some are very allergic, it's not all about the owner of a service dog.

Having nothing in place to keep people from taking advantage just seems strange and wrong to me. It seems it only harms people who really do need a service dog.

Like handicapped parking places and jerks taking advantage of it.

See, this is kind of what I'm getting at. You're telling me it's not all about disabled people. Well, I'm telling you it's not all about abled people.

Yes, people can empathize. But why are abled people making decisions that, for the most part, only affect disabled people? Why do you feel abled people should have control over us? Do you believe we cannot self-govern? That we are incapable? It's not all about you. The ADA is FOR the disabled, by the disabled.

 

True enough I guess, but there is a legal penalty at least if they get caught parking in a handicapped spot.

From what R seems to be saying, there can be no getting caught for the person taking advantage.

Not that it upsets me, I would just as soon dogs are allowed everywhere service or not.

 

Not that it upsets me, I would just as soon dogs are allowed everywhere service or not.

See I dont. I dont want dogs in the grocery store if they dont need to be there. And even if its not the grocery store, allowing so many dogs in places would send my husband (and I am sure many others)into a full blown asthma attack everywhere he went.

 

Actually, aside from health department regulations, whether or not dogs and other animals are allowed into stores and other public places is generally up to the property owner and/or tenant. From the NY Times:

The managers of the Gap informed me at every store where I inquired that “the corporate policy is to allow dogs in our stores.”

(City Room blog)

It gets really fun when its not just service dogs but service ferrets, service snakes, service rats and more. San Francisco was a very amusing place

A person with a service animal CAN be asked to leave if they are presenting a danger or disturbance to others in the same way that a store or restaurant can ask a person who stands in the middle of the store screaming or throwing things to leave. So long as the "right to refuse service" is based on actions and not a disability in and of itself. Untrained "service" dog bites someone? Ask the owner to leave. Service dog stands there quietly and another person is scared of the dog? Tough crap.

 

Actually, aside from health department regulations, whether or not dogs and other animals are allowed into stores and other public places is generally up to the property owner and/or tenant. From the NY Times

I'm not 100% sure if that's what you mean by health dept regulations. But basically, any place that sells food (even packaged food like candies, drinks, etc) is not allowed to let dogs in.

But if the store does not have any food or drinks for sale, it's up to the store.

 

I'm not 100% sure if that's what you mean by health dept regulations. But basically, any place that sells food (even packaged food like candies, drinks, etc) is not allowed to let dogs in.

Yep, that's what I meant. I think there are some additional regs on non-food places in relation to stuff like medical facilities but that too could be location specific. I am mostly going on what I learned in the police academy.

Personally, I see a service dog like any device or aid to help someone. Lets say someone is in a wheelchair, it would be wrong not to allow them into my store AND it is none of my business why they have need of the chair. BUT, if they, say, keep running over people's toes on purpose, then it is reasonable to ask them to stop (i.e. control their dog) or leave (i.e. well, leave)