That sounds like a really frustrating situation. Could you maybe talk to the trainer before or after these events?

 

I'm thinking about it.....I have a funny feeling the reason she is calming Caeda more than the other dog is because Caeda really is an overly excitable dog, and is prone to keep going too far, any chance to teach her to calm down is one worth taking I guess. If that is the case I accept it, I just don't get why these little dogs aren't being taught the same thing

 

Yeah, people seem to under estimate little dogs WAY to much. They seem to think just because they are small, it's okay for them to be aggressive. About a month ago, our car broke down in a very small Texas town while on a long road trip from KY to AZ. We were stuck in this town for a couple of days waiting to get our car repaired. During our last day there, Marlin was beginning to get restless, so I took him out for a walk in one of the near by neighborhoods. As we were walking along, a pack of about 6 or 7 Chihuahuas came racing out from the property across the street, ran across the road where we were, and actually started to surround us, all looking genuinely aggressive and angry... In the past when dogs have run out at us, I normally just keep walking, but I couldn't. They were on all sides of us and began closing in. I'd stomp my feet at them, and yell at them to go away in a deep loud voice, and nothing was scaring them away... It sounds really funny, but it was actually really terrifying. Marlin stood between us and would rush at them when ever they started getting to close, but they would always come right back afterwards. If it hadn't of been for him, I'd of been bitten, and probably very badly. I'm surprised HE wasn't bitten to be honest. After about 30 seconds of this, the owners finally came running outside and tried to get the dogs, who were just running away from them, barking at us. Finally we were able to move forward and the owner replied "Sorry, they think they're big dogs" to which I replied "That's really scary, lady".

 

Rcloud: eek! that sounds terrifying, honestly. Those Chi's were lucky it wasn't Charlotte you were walking!

Greater Swiss: I would turn it into a 'teaching' moment. Next time this situation happens, ask inquisitively why the instructor decided to pull Caeda out and not the smaller dog. I think in this situation it would be about tone. If it were me I would want to know.

 

Rcloud: eek! that sounds terrifying, honestly. Those Chi's were lucky it wasn't Charlotte you were walking!

As I was walking away from the scene, this is exactly what I was thinking. She would have been tossing those dogs like dirty laundry and I would have been powerless to stop her!

 

One of the reasons I love our current trainer so much is that she explains and expects acceptable behavior from ALL dogs and ALL people in her classes. It's different because this isn't an off-leash play group, it's obedience and agility for fun classes, but often when practicing things like tunnels or chutes in a group before we do the runs alone, people lose hold of their leashes.

A couple of classes ago there was a small poodle-ish mix that was clearly anxious of big dogs, and as the biggest dog in the class Squash was always his target. I tried to make sure we were always way across the room from them, but if he ever got loose he would zero in on and charge Squash no matter where we were, barking his fool head off. I have no idea if he actually would have latched on or bitten because I always managed to intercept him and step on or grab his leash before any physical contact was made, and Squash is so easygoing with other dogs that he never reacted to the charging at all, but it got annoying. After asking her to keep control of her leash several times the trainer eventually told her she just wasn't allowed to practice chutes and tunnels when we were in a group.

But yea, the owners didn't seem to take it very seriously. They kept saying "but he loves to play with big dogs in day care!" and I always wondered if he was actually "playing" with them or just chasing some patient large dogs around the room barking at them.

 

Whoops, sorry I deleted my post when I saw you were responding already. It looks kind of funny now, oh well.

I think it's a lot to expect from any dog to not defend itself/its owner against aggressing dogs.

 

I think it's a lot to expect from any dog to not defend itself/its owner against aggressing dogs.

I know a lot of dog friendly dogs who would go postal over other dogs exhibiting threatening behavior to themselves and their family. Charlotte exaggerates at times, but she's definitely not a dog that needs a muzzle nor is she a danger to the general public....so long as everyone obeys the leash laws.

 

I have two small dogs that are very dog friendly but IF one or the other of them is threatened each one approaches the situation like 'the fight is on', protecting themselves or each other or me. I had one tossed and rolled by a young overexuberant lab/border collie mix a couple of weeks back (we were on leash and he was running about loose, darted out from behind a parked vehicle and caught us by surprise) and the other of mine went after that young boy with a good snarl and grabbed a cheek. Unfortunately most dogs are so much larger than them this it is not in their best interest.

You really can't expect dogs NOT to reacte to a rude approach like that.

SOB

 

Yep, from my experience, it seems to be a very natural reaction. Marlin is very dog friendly to, and yet he's raced to Charlotte's side a few times ready to kick some butt when it looked like she was in trouble.

 

It's not really a rant about small dogs, it's a rant about owners. I have a small dog that is not friendly- in general. He does not like other dogs, so I do not let him get near other dogs.

 

Heh, kinda curious I see this thread.

Today Homero was bullied . I felt bad cause I was close to him, but I did what I could as soon as I could.

I was gong to a friend´s house in which Ileft my cel phone and decided to take Homero so he gets a long walk and sniff out stuff he normaly wouldn´t. I knew my friend had a little dog ( I know little about dogs, so the race escapes me, bt I think its a kind of sausage dog(or whichever is the real name of the race ) ) but he generaly taks care to not let him get out when oppening the door. (Little dog´s name is milo)

When I enter I just wanted to stay in the door so he could get my cel and I could leave, (I am kinda paranoid on my dog being away from his normal pooping place and maybe wanting to go, so prefer not to enter shops and stuff with dog) so when the door gets open it was his mother and Milo did got out barking and all. I signald my dog with the leash to move away cause I was initialy concerned for Milo. As coward asmy dog may be, Milo is smaller and one bite from Homero I feared the worst. My friend´s mom shoutd Milo to come back and when he approached to much to my dog and I looked he was not replying the bark or the what-appeared-to-be little bittings on his side but I just shouted "Milo NO!" and manually holded him until the mother took him inside. Thankfully Milo didn´t tried to bite me.

I think Homero looks good so I hope he wasn´t biten or wasn´t bitten harsh at least (at least it didn´t left a mark). But well, kinda downer : /.

Also, I think Homero wasn´t afraid, but he was actually moving exactly as I moved him to with the leash (I tend to keep short leash and definetely had such in this scenario) in a way that seemed really control and also aware of Milo coming by. My conscience been running on that situation, but I think it wasn´t badly handled... Oh yeah, I did get my cel phone very shortlyafter n_nU

In any case, the chihuahuas thing doesn´t sound good at all. Thank god the owner came by, and yeah, its REALLY irresponsable to have your dogs without leash at least if there is a law on it, and at LEAST when there are SO MANY of them you are taking out at the same time. I mean, even if they are well behaved, one thing goes bad, and there are too many factors cause of that many dogs. It´s plain inviting for disaster u_u

 

Seriously? Its not "smaller dogs." Its the people who don't train them.

I could say the same things about a number of large dogs in my neighborhood.

 

Thank you. My small dog is very well trained but we just left the DP because of an obnoxious Pom whose owner thinks it's funny that her dog NEVER stops barking. It's always the owner.

 

You guys are profiling! LOL. It is totally on the owner. Dogs can not put on their own leashes. When I am walking my little dogs, big dogs go after them. When I am walking my big dogs, little dogs go after them. What I have noticed. The little dog owners laugh about how their dog is going after my big dog. Their little dog could be a Scooby snack to her. Lucky for these little guys she has kept her cool.

 

What I cannot seem to fathom is no matter what size the dog ... if you really care for your dog ... why would you put them in a situation where they could be injured or killed? I agree and IMO it is the the person behind the leash where the problem lies.

Long story short - I would never take my small dogs off leash anywhere ... period! They have an attitude problem and I don't want it adjusted by anyone or anything but myself.

 

Those of you who are saying it is the owners and not the dogs, yeah, definitely true. I'm surprised in my situation that the trainer is allowing it, she isn't exactly a softy, nor the type that would allow small dogs to get away with being bad. I'm assuming there is something between her and the owner going on but I can't fathom what. I'm fine with her protecting the smaller dogs from Caeda if she gets over-exuberant. Caeda has actually learned to play reasonably well with smaller dogs and greet them well, it just goes further when the little one starts hanging from her jowels or biting hard at her.
There is another owner who comes to social with a tiny dog (I mentioned them in another thread, they brought their kid and tiny timid dog), who I actually heard say "I don't want this little guy getting little dog syndrome". I think I know what she meant, and I appreciate it.
I do agree that it is generally the owners but as for the small dog (rather than the owner) being the issue, I wonder if as much care is put into concerns over temperament when breeding smaller dogs since it at least appears that many small dog owners are far less worried about the possibility of aggressiveness. Yes, partially a nature vs nurture debate, but I know temperament is often a concern in breeding dogs.....but is it as much a concern for a smaller breed?

 

Most small dogs are companion breeds so yes if you get one from a good breeder then you should be getting a stable dog with a good temperament. It doesn't make much sense to breed dogs for companionship that are aggressive. Most well bred toy dogs I know are VERY human friendly. Ironically one of the only ones that is not completely human friendly that I know is Mia. She is not aggressive though, just not trusting towards strangers. But that's just a Mia thing, not a small dog thing. Like I said, they're companions so they should LOVE people.

There is also the fact that small breeds have been the biggest target for breeds to be sold at pet stores and for mills to sell. There are a lot of people breeding really bad toy dogs out there with absolutely no care and no screening of anything.

Small dogs tend to be fear reactive a lot more (in my experience) than larger dogs. This makes complete sense. Think about being that small and think about how big and scary things coming at you could be. It always amuses me at comments I get from people about 'little dog syndrome'. If my dog barks at another she is being aggressive and 'thinks she's the boss'. If a dog runs up and startles mine and my dog snaps, she's got little dog syndrome. I could go on and on. But the bottom line is most 'aggressive' small dog behavior I see is actually fear based and the dog is trying to avoid actually having to engage in another dog. They're putting on a show so to speak. And I also see just as many big dogs and medium dogs having these issues too- pulling on leash, barking and growling at other dogs, etc.

I think it's dumb to even worry about 'small dog syndrome'. I think small dog syndrome doesn't exist. Just train and socialize like you would any dog. Any dog has the potential to be dog reactive or fearful, some breeds more than others of course.

I also think it's a bad idea to bring really small dogs to big group playdates with big dogs and I don't see a point. My two would HATE it and would be growling and snapping at big dogs too. Not because they're aggressive or have a bad temperament but because they were scared. Big dogs are usually rougher than they would like and a lot of the bigger dogs don't seem to be able to tone down their play styles. Small dogs can growl and warning snap and that's about all in their arsenal so they try to put on a show to keep the big scary things away many times. My two are absolutely fine in close proximity with big dogs so long as they don't have to interact with them. They're also really great with big dogs they know and trust but it takes time and proper introduction. You're not going to get that on the first meeting.

But I don't understand the notion that in order to have a 'good temperament' dogs would have to like other dogs and get along with all other dogs.

 

I don't really understand how owners of toy dogs can be comfortable having their dogs in group play settings with medium and large sized dogs. Little dogs who are reactive to dogs in such settings aren't being "nasty", aren't "thinking they're alpha" and aren't "looking to pick fights with bigger dogs". Despite what many people seem to think, small dogs do realize they are small and that is what is responsible for most of the "small dog aggression" people talk so much about. They don't feel safe and it's obvious to them that their owner isn't going to look out for them. As a few have already said, it's not a temperament issue. It's an issue of what is and is not an appropriate situation to put a small dog into. It's the same issue with toy dogs and children. If parents don't manage their children and allow them to feel terrorized by the child, they will start learning to act "nasty" to get the kids to leave them alone. This can transfer to other people too, if the dog doesn't think they are safe and has learned it takes a drastic display to get people to back off. But the issue still goes back to putting a little tiny dog into an inappropriate situation and making them fend for themselves. Situations that don't seem worrisome to bigger dogs can appear very frightening to a small dog.

Owning toy dogs comes with the responsibility of having to take extra precautions to keep your dog safe from things that wouldn't be an issue with larger dogs.

 

There are several stories here about people being rushed by small dogs while just walking. It's not all small dog owners, but I have been told by several people that it doesn't matter, they're small and can't hurt you or your dog. It's not only small dogs that are out of control, but I've never been told by a large dog owner that 'it's ok he can't hurt you'.
I'm always glad to see, or hear of, people owning small dogs that keep them under control, unfortunately there are those that don't believe they have to, because they're small.

 

I was simply addressing the statement that 'it's not okay for a small dog to snark at a large dog'. Not all the stories. Like I said though, I could post as many stories about larger dogs rushing mine and being out of control. I don't think posting a few stories about small dogs attacking yours proves any point at all other than those dogs should have been on a leash.

Anyways, I HAVE been told by so many people that 'it's okay, he's friendly!' In regards to dogs of any size. Or a big dog that comes up to my dogs and I say 'they're not friendly! the owner says 'it's okay, he needs to learn his lesson!' Or people that let their dogs come 'meet' mine and when mine growls back they're jut vicious little dogs.

 

It's not ok for a small dog to snark at a big dog that the small dog approached. If the large dog did the approaching, then they have every reason to feel defensive, but we weren't talking about that situation. And I agree, if my stories were unique it doesn't mean anything, but I'm not the only one with those experiences, they are not isolated or uncommon. I have nothing against small dogs, I own a lhasa apso as well as a couple large ones, my problem is with owners who think it's ok to let small dogs run wild because they're small and 'can't hurt' anyone. Saying that it doesn't happen just simply isn't true. And, yes, it's also true that people with larger dogs also are irresponsible with them as well. Ultimately it is the owner's fault, not the dog.

 

Aw, come on folks. Seriously? I think you're all arguing the same thing at this point, the differences just stem from the title of "A bit of a rant about smaller dogs" (which Rcloud has already admitted in this thread that it is indeed more an owner issue than a dog issue, so please forgive her for the title lol), and a few different stories being read with different tones by different people. If you go back and read through things (and I've read at this point every post on here), everyone is pretty well on the same page.

A) It's far more an owner issue than a dog-size issue
B) Off-leash dogs are more often than not the ones to cause/start the issue, as they're not nearly under the same control, if any at all, as those on-leash
C) Small dogs off-leash have gone after some of your larger dogs, and larger dogs off-leash have harassed some of your smaller dogs (see "A")
D) Owners should be responsible and intelligent enough to keep their dogs on a leash when out and about
E) Just because your dog is 5 pounds doesn't mean they should be allowed to run around aggressively harassing other people/dogs because "they can't hurt anything"

Ok, I think that covers it. Now who here disagrees with any of that? Oh, lookie there, no one is raising a hand lol

 

Yeah, sorry. I get a little carried away with this issue, I owned a pit bull for years and got tired of having to punt little dogs away from her as they got in her face barking and snarling. You know the pit would be blamed if she hurt or killed the 'cute little harmless dog', even though the little dog was off leash, she would just have been defending herself, on a leash and under control. I honestly have nothing against little dogs, just irresponsible owners.

 

My point is that responsibility goes BOTH ways. EVERYONE should have control of their dogs, regardless of the size and reason. But far FAR to often, I see small dog owners with out of control, nasty dogs because they don't seem to think they can cause any harm. My story about the poms was used as an example of how I think small dog owners SHOULD be with their dogs. It's understandable that they would be afraid of a lot of larger dogs, and as their owners, it's OUR job to make sure they feel safe and protected so they don't feel the need to defend themselves. Because regardless of who's at fault, if a larger dog retaliates in response to that attack, weather it meant any harm or not initially, the results could be devastating.

 

If a small "rat" is on a lead when multiple larger dogs run up on them, then obviously there is a person involved. Let me be that person and witness the other owner(s) laughing. Whether I'm fearful in that situation simply irritated for my own dog, we're about to have a throwdown match of some nasty words lol

 

If my on lead 'rat' as you so charmingly put it, is rushed by off lead large dogs - Note: 'rushing' not just casually galloping up - is considered the same as an attack.

So while you're laughing at my terrified 'rat' which is breaking no laws while hurling filthy words at me, I'll be going to the council and having your dogs and the others declared dangerous.

 

I wish I lived in a town where small off-leash dogs were an issue. I'm not excusing irresponsible owners who let their small dogs off-leash. But I would be a LOT happier if that out-of-control, off-leash dog charging at me was 5 pounds instead of 50.

 

If I were 10-pounds and the height of a computer monitor, I might be a little quicker to fear large people, dogs and objects. I don't blame my 10-pounder, Coco, for being afraid of large, fast-moving people (like those on bicycles or skateboards), or quick, awkward looking small people who keep try to grab at her (like children). In fact, I admire the fact that she's not afraid of any dogs, big or small. I also admire that she may bark, but her choice in the end is always to retreat rather than engage.

Of course, no dog should be allowed off-leash just to annoy other dogs. I don't believe there's a "small dog syndrome" any more than a "big dog syndrome." The key is to know your own dog's eccentricities and to acknowledge when you're in a situation where others aren't playing by the rules and you and your dog should leave.

 

We get a lot of requests for off-leash socialized play, which we offer. About 50% of the dogs whos owners want that socialized play do it because "their dog needs socialization", and I have to tell them we're not here to socialize their dogs, especially at the risk of other (dog friendly) boarders. Many of our dogs have regular buddies that they adore. A lot of the people who say "oh he loves the dog park" are dogs who actually (to me) dogs who look like they would rather melt into a puddle and disappear into a crack in the floor than have to play with other dogs. 99% of our socialized boarders are puppies and young dogs; my own GSD used to be the playground counselor until he hit about 4 years old. He has a select few dogs he loves to roughhouse with, but as an adult dog "playing" with every single dog on the planet is no longer his M.O.

 

Originally Posted by Greater Swiss

Its more of a small dog owner syndrome that I think I'm referring to.
You need to come work for me You'll see plenty of large dogs who are babied to the point of not being able to hardly function on their own. Our big joke at work is "get a real dog", meaning get a REAL dog, not judging what a real dog is by the sheer size. Do you know how many huge dogs in this part of the country aren't even leash trained because they're "farm dogs" and have "never been on a leash before?" In 5 years time I'm hoping to widdle my grooming clientele down to small dogs only with a few of my favorite selected large dogs, mainly because I am tired of being beaten up by large dogs whos owners have taught them absolutely ZERO manners.
It's not a small dog thing, it's an owner thing. Trust me. I bet 10 to 1 you would LOVE Tag, my youngest (14 pound) papillon. He and the GSD play like "real" dogs, he loves agility, loves to run, HATES to be carried. Not all small dog owners own them for the sake of dressing them up in ridiculous clothes and toting them around in purses.

 

It's not a small dog thing, it's an owner thing. Trust me. I bet 10 to 1 you would LOVE Tag, my youngest (14 pound) papillon. He and the GSD play like "real" dogs, he loves agility, loves to run, HATES to be carried. Not all small dog owners own them for the sake of dressing them up in ridiculous clothes and toting them around in purses.

Not everybody would love Coco. She does bark because she's wary of strangers, although she warms up to people that I seem to be "cool" with. She does like being carried (primarily when it's bedtime and she's too lazy to walk up the stairs - I'm a sucker). I have been carrying her less lately, though, because she's fully capable of walking. However, if I put even the tiniest piece of clothing on her, she'll stiffen up and get all deer-eyed like I'm torturing her. Nor would she have anything to do with a dog-toting purse. She's a rough-and-tumble dog, and I like that. There's absolutely nothing delicate or fragile about her personality.

 

I agree with you completely. Butters gets attacked by aggressive small dogs far more frequently than she gets attacked by large breeds. I think because larger breeds have more "bite" so to speak and can do far more physical damage, people take it far more seriously. Funny enough, this isn't altogether true, as my dog was attacked by a giant Chow Chow not too long ago, and the owners did ZILCH. Nevertheless, I would definitely have a chat with the small dog owner and ask them to kindly have their dog removed from your dog's personal space.

 

Wow this post seemed to go from venting to small vs. large dogs pretty quick.
Small dogs are, generally speaking, more coddled than large for a couple of reasons:
1) it's easier to just pick them up and remove them from a situation than to train and socialize properly
2) their behaviour is considered cute or laughable because of the size
3) awww they're so little, poor little doggy is scared, pet pet, hug hug, dog learns to be fearful and aggressive
The exact same problems can occur with large dogs but the problems are generally taken better care of because of the size of larger dogs. All dogs have the potential to be aggrssive and poorly behaved.

Bottom line is, people are responsible for their own dogs no matter the size. Socialize as much as possible as early as possible with dogs and people of all sizes, ages, and types. If you have a dog and it happens upon an aggressive dog -on or off leash- it's your job to protect and teach your dog what to do in that situation rather than worry about the other dogs owner. Protect your dog!
Dog Parks: not meant to be the only exercise or socialization your dog gets and can be a very dangerous place for young, inexperienced dogs.

 

Socialize as much as possible as early as possible with dogs and people of all sizes, ages, and types. If you have a dog and it happens upon an aggressive dog -on or off leash- it's your job to protect and teach your dog what to do in that situation rather than worry about the other dogs owner.

Perhaps, in your infinite wisdom, you can tell me what to do when I am walking a 5lb puppy and an aggressive lab comes tearing out of its yard and into the street, snarling, intent on eating my puppy. Maybe you can explain how that's somehow my fault for not teaching my puppy how to react in that situation.

Or maybe you can tell me what I should do when I am walking my two small dogs (20lbs and 10lbs) on their leashes in the dark, when suddenly we are rushed and surrounded by four dogs ranging in size from 30 to 60 lbs. Maybe you can give me some nice helpful little tips for how to keep my dogs from being afraid when they're surrounded, in the dark, by large pushy dogs they don't know. Go ahead. I'd love to hear what my "job" is in that situation and why I shouldn't worry at all about the idiot who has an aggressive dog or an actual dog pack running loose.

 

I don't claim to be infinately wise, far from it. I do, however, have a lot of experience and was simply sharing my two cents. Guess what, when you're out walking and dogs rush out at you, their owners aren't there! Guess who gets to deal with the situation? You. You don't want your dog to snap at the dog, so you have to intervene. Take a walking stick with you if that would make you feel more comfortable and do what you've got to do to protect your dogs. Size has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that circumstance. Whether you're walking two small dogs or a couple of great danes, you are still responsible for your dogs.