There’s definitely an amount of time that’s more okay. However I always recommend to not crate your dog at all since it can be very harmful and have a great negative impact on the dog. Hence I advice you to skip the crate.

 

Well, I'm not against crate training. Crating a puppy at night makes life easier on both you and the puppy. And there are other times it does that. However, I personally believe that a puppy that spends 8 hours in a crate at night should be spending as little time as possible in a crate during the day. If all you do is lock them up, why did you get one?

 

I crated my puppy a LOT the first month or two I had him. My situation was pretty specific for me to do that. One example is that my puppy came with me to work. So on top of being in a crate 8 hours at night he was also crated 8 hrs during a work day in my office, with 30 minute breaks throughout the day to potty, socialize, and train.

But instead of telling you how many hours to crate your puppy, I will recommend that you observe your puppy's health and demeanor. If your puppy seems content in the crate and is getting plenty of socialization and enrichment when he is out, then what you are doing is likely fine. People who dislike crates usually have a personal aversion to the idea of caging a dog. And I will be the first to agree that excessive isolation or confinement is detrimental to a dog's mental and physical health. But it really is not about the number of hours. It is about the quality of a puppy's time inside a crate (or pen, or loose, or anywhere), and the quality of a puppy's time outside of the crate.

 

People who dislike crates usually have a personal aversion to the idea of caging a dog.

Sorry, can I ask what you mean by that? Of course my opinion is personal but it’s based off of dog’s behavior, needs and facts/studies on the subject. Then it’s also a cultural aspect since it’s illegal to crate your dog where I live and it’s viewed as animal cruelty.

 

It's also worth noting that little puppies can easily sleep 18 hours per day. They need it to grow.

My pup Jet at that age would actively resist sleeping as long as something even vaguely interesting was happening around the house, so he'd get overtired and frazzled and bitey, and then as soon as I'd put him in his crate he'd immediately flop over and conk out. He needed the rest but he wasn't able to make a good choice on his own, lol.

 

"He needed the rest but he wasn't able to make a good choice on his own." Well said!

Yeah that was Brae as a puppy too. His quality of life was higher the more he was crated. Less stress, less frustration, calmer body language... And still very energetic, social, clear headed, and eager (but not frantic) when he was out of the crate. He was arguably crated the most out of his littermates (not that I know the exact amount his littermates were crated), but had great musculature and bone development per vet and chiropractor visits, multiple Xrays, and OFA eval when he was around 2yo. And actually grew up to be the largest in his litter much to my dismay.

But I want to be cautious here. So I am emphasizing that more crating is not necessarily better for all puppies out there. It was for mine, given my very specific living situation and my puppy's temperament.

 

Could you share a study on the topic?

 

Unfortunately I haven’t saved all the studies I’ve read through out the years but these are some that I found on the subject for now.

The first two are written in swedish, hence I will post a small piece of the study translated to English. I don’t have time to personally translate it so the text is directly copied from google translate.

“Although studies of different ways of dealing with stress in dogs are sparse, research shows that animals that appear inactive under extreme conditions try to manage stress passively, rather than not being stressed. Other dogs can actively manage stress, i.e. be more outspoken (Horváth et al. 2007; Koolhaas et al., 2007). Inactivity can lead to misplaced (unwanted) behaviors, e.g. hyperactivity, outbursts in humans and other dogs and excessive barking (Kobelt et al., 2003). In a survey of 203 dog owners, Kobelt (2003) found a negative correlation between incorrectly placed behaviors and the size of the resting yard and walking frequency, respectively. An animal may try to adapt to a stimulus, e.g. inactivity, by performing an abnormal and repetitive behavior, without a pronounced purpose, a so-called stereotypy. Examples of stereotypes in dogs are excessive licking, chasing their own tail, spinning in circles, wandering back and forth and repeated jumps (Hubrecht et al., 1992; Protopopova & Wynne, 2014). A stimulus-poor environment that prevents the dog from performing its natural behavior is a common reason for stereotypes to develop (Schipper et al., 2008). In a bachelor's thesis, Olby (2017) conducted a survey with owners of 75 dogs in convalescence after orthopedic surgery, as the dog has a lower activity level and limited areas to move on, and found that both the incidence of stereotypical and misplaced behaviors increased.“ https://pub.epsilon.slu.se/16752/1/berg_l_et_al_200309.pdf


”Stress can be triggered if the dog's movement possibilities are limited, for example if it is tied up or stays in a kennel or cage for longer periods, but also if it is allowed to be in the garden without being allowed to go out and walk (6, 12). Likewise, if they are left alone too often and for too long, do not feel sufficient belonging to the family or do not have enough to do, they feel lonely and bored.
[...]
Learned helplessness means that the dog experiences that, whatever it does, it can not affect its situation. It gives up after a while and stops even trying, no matter how unpleasant and horrible the situation is (6, 8, 14). The stressful experience of completely lacking control over discomfort destroys the dog's ability to later learn that control may be possible, and despite the possibility of being able to handle the situation, the dog chooses to be exposed to the stressor. According to Jensen P. (1996), a dog like this is very stressed (8). The dog then shows symptoms such as impaired initiative, lack of spontaneous activity, apathy, difficulty learning that it is profitable to fight, reduced aggression, lack of appetite, weight loss, hyposexuality, decreased social behavior and poorer immune system. Situations that can contribute to the dog learning helplessness are if it is subjected to one or more shocks, or if it is trapped in a cage, resting yard or is chained or tied up for longer than short periods. Even abuse or harsh and authoritarian upbringing and training, many bans and few permits can lead to it, as well as bullying or prolonged pain conditions (6)”
https://stud.epsilon.slu.se/10767/1/petersson_h_170913.pdf

Keeping Dogs In Kennels Can Literally Drive Them Crazy

https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/43747/Sonntag_Key_2014.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

https://www.peta.org/issues/animal-companion-issues/cruel-practices/crating/

 

I want to add on to two of the links provided.

Keeping Dogs In Kennels Can Literally Drive Them Crazy
This one references a study done on 30 police dogs that live in kennel situations. They equate well-trained for police work to ability to settle in kennel environments, which has no correlation. I think if you look at ANY dog in a kennel situation (I work in a shelter), you will get a very different picture. Also, having worked with police and detection dogs, I can agree that they can go crazy... Because often times the training revolves entirely around the work, not on settling. I think any study done on police dogs living in a kennel environment does not give accurate perspectives on dogs that are crated in home settings. It's also interesting that the article references the Stafford shelter in Montana. I know that shelter personally and I even have videos they've sent me of dogs being kennel stressed. "Kennel stress" is a term I use very frequently and it is a very real thing. But again, this is referencing dozens of dogs housed in a wall-to-wall kennel environment. I would not use this to reference dogs who are crated in a home setting.

Crating Dogs | PETA
PETA is an extreme activist organization. A lot of what is said in this link is extremely one sided or flat out wrong. Unrelated to crate training, but this article shows that PETA euthanized 90% of their animals in a Virginia shelter in 2014: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...-them-mercy-killings/2015/03/12/e84e9af2-c8fa-11e4-bea5-b893e7ac3fb3_story.html Their intake was around 3000 animals. They blame this number on the number of unwanted pets, no-kill shelters turning pets away.

About Us | Animal Shelter

Fairfax County, Virginia - About the Fairfax County Animal Shelter

www.fairfaxcounty.gov

But this municipal shelter (ie, they do not turn pets away and intake all surrenders) in the same state, 3 hours away, has an annual intake of about 4000-5000 animals, has had a 90% or higher live release rate since 2013.

Just showing that PETA is far from reputable, in the sheltering world or in the training world.

Here is a far more reputable source by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior: Housetraining Tips - AVSAB
The article is on housetraining, but they speak fairly on the use of a crate as well. It is hard to find a position statement on crating among American organizations because it is unanimously accepted that a crate is a great tool when used correctly.

 

I want to add on to two of the links provided.

Keeping Dogs In Kennels Can Literally Drive Them Crazy
This one references a study done on 30 police dogs that live in kennel situations. They equate well-trained for police work to ability to settle in kennel environments, which has no correlation. I think if you look at ANY dog in a kennel situation (I work in a shelter), you will get a very different picture. Also, having worked with police and detection dogs, I can agree that they can go crazy... Because often times the training revolves entirely around the work, not on settling. I think any study done on police dogs living in a kennel environment does not give accurate perspectives on dogs that are crated in home settings. It's also interesting that the article references the Stafford shelter in Montana. I know that shelter personally and I even have videos they've sent me of dogs being kennel stressed. "Kennel stress" is a term I use very frequently and it is a very real thing. But again, this is referencing dozens of dogs housed in a wall-to-wall kennel environment. I would not use this to reference dogs who are crated in a home setting.

On the other hand these dogs are provided with a lot of stimulation, activity and exercise when not kenneled. A part from the general dog in america. They’re also kept in kennels which still allow them to move around normally unlike crates that really confines the dog in its position. I understand the issue with lack of focus on settling down but apart from the general dog they’re at least provided with a lot of activity and exercise.

Crating Dogs | PETA
PETA is an extreme activist organization. A lot of what is said in this link is extremely one sided or flat out wrong.

What in this article is wrong do you mean? I disagree with peta on many subjects but on this subject I totally agree with them.

Unrelated to crate training, but this article shows that PETA euthanized 90% of their animals in a Virginia shelter in 2014: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...-them-mercy-killings/2015/03/12/e84e9af2-c8fa-11e4-bea5-b893e7ac3fb3_story.html Their intake was around 3000 animals. They blame this number on the number of unwanted pets, no-kill shelters turning pets away.

About Us | Animal Shelter

Fairfax County, Virginia - About the Fairfax County Animal Shelter

www.fairfaxcounty.gov

But this municipal shelter (ie, they do not turn pets away and intake all surrenders) in the same state, 3 hours away, has an annual intake of about 4000-5000 animals, has had a 90% or higher live release rate since 2013.

Just showing that PETA is far from reputable, in the sheltering world or in the training world.

Yes this is very unrelated and irrelevant to crating so I don’t see the reason for bringing this up in this discussion.

A part from that it has nothing to do with crating a high adopt rate says absolutely nothing to me. It doesn’t take the dogs wellbeing or problems, rehoming, euthanasia after they’ve been adopted. A high number doesn’t alway mean it’s good. What’s important is the quality of the homes they’re adopted to. I can’t see how that would show that peta isn’t reputable.

Here is a far more reputable source by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior: Housetraining Tips - AVSAB
The article is on housetraining, but they speak fairly on the use of a crate as well. It is hard to find a position statement on crating among American organizations because it is unanimously accepted that a crate is a great tool when used correctly.

Oh I get big warning flags from this source. Just by the fact that they claim that wolves are den animals.. This is in fact not true. The only time that wolves uses dens are when having puppies. So that is not a reputable source and contributes to misinformation. This article will debunk that myth Are Dogs Really Den Animals?

I disagree with them being okay with crating since I think it leads to reduced quality of life for the dog as a result of keeping it convenient for us humans, regardless if it’s properly introduced. And the “acceptance” could easily just be learned helplessness.

 

I think the good of crating is it enables many people who couldn't otherwise to have dogs and get through the puppy stages without giving up and dumping the dog in a shelter or losing their temper and doing harm. It's also beneficial to a dog to be able to accept confinement for safety when traveling and as a necessity after medical treatment.

As someone who shows her dogs, it's necessary at dog shows unless you want to spend hours with your dog on a leash in environments where dogs are forbidden in restrooms and show cafes. IMO the day-on-a-leash is harder on the dog and everyone else (some of us really don't think your dog is as cute as you do and don't want it bugging us) than the dog spending that time safe and peaceful in their crate. And for that to be possible, the dog has to have learned to feel safe and at peace in a crate.

 

I think the good of crating is it enables many people who couldn't otherwise to have dogs and get through the puppy stages without giving up and dumping the dog in a shelter or losing their temper and doing harm.

That’s my point. It’s a convenient and comfortable solution for the human that allows us to escape responsibility to properly train and care for the dog. In my opinion those people aren’t qualified to own dogs then.

It's also beneficial to a dog to be able to accept confinement for safety when traveling and as a necessity after medical treatment.

Yes, to train the dog to accept being in a crate is beneficial. However this doesn’t justify to daily lock up the dogs for hours. Training them accept being in a crate is not the same as regularly locking them in there for long period of times.

As someone who shows her dogs, it's necessary at dog shows unless you want to spend hours with your dog on a leash in environments where dogs are forbidden in restrooms and show cafes. IMO the day-on-a-leash is harder on the dog and everyone else (some of us really don't think your dog is as cute as you do and don't want it bugging us) than the dog spending that time safe and peaceful in their crate. And for that to be possible, the dog has to have learned to feel safe and at peace in a crate.

Yes I agree with this. Even though crates are illegal here, there are exceptions. You’re allowed to crate while transporting, if resting is recommend by the vet, when hunting, or during competitions. But even then you need to take the dog out every other hour.

There’s a difference between occasionally using a crate when needed, such as when transporting, competing, injury etc and to crate the dogs for hours every day.

What I’m talking about is the regular confinement of dogs in small cages. Not occasional use of crates when needed.

 

(Then it’s also a cultural aspect since it’s illegal to crate your dog where I live and it’s viewed as animal cruelty.)

Can I ask then, how do you keep a puppy safe?
We crate a puppy at night, so hopefully we can get some sleep and while we are gone to keep them safe... say from chewing cords or ticked off siblings.
I don't think it's possible for any human to be with a new pup 24/7.
Also, crating is good training for when they will be spending the day at vet or groomer.
Interested to hear how y'all get it done, thanks.

 

Can I ask then, how do you keep a puppy safe?
We crate a puppy at night, so hopefully we can get some sleep and while we are gone to keep them safe... say from chewing cords or ticked off siblings.
I don't think it's possible for any human to be with a new pup 24/7.

Keep them with me in a puppy proof bedroom or put up a puppy pen. Then you puppy proof the house or at least in the areas where it will be. Preferably you’re able to supervise the puppy the majority of the day. When not, you could put the puppy in a safe place like a room or puppy pen. I’m not against restraining the dog to a certain space. My issue is the small size of a crate.

Also, crating is good training for when they will be spending the day at vet or groomer.
Interested to hear how y'all get it done, thanks.

I’ve responded to this prior. Training a dog to accept being in a crate is not the same as locking it up for hours daily. To train the dog to accept crates does not justify keeping the dog in a small cage everyday for hours.

 

Oh, ok. My brain is using crate/pen the same, I guess.
We use a pen, plenty of space to move around.
Crates are used for transport only...or the one ornery old bat for feeding.
Thanks.

 

I don't really see a moral or practical difference between confining the dog in crate, versus in a pen or even a room like a mudroom or bathroom. I mean, if the crate is tiny, sure, but a crate shouldn't be cramped. For a puppy, what's the real difference between a crate and a pen? The pen doesn't have a lid? That just means the pen is escapable for an athletic dog, and ergo less practical, not that the pen is more humane.

I'm sure there are people whose crate use is abusive, but I don't think crates are, in and of themselves, abusive. In a lot of situations, too, crates are the lesser evil. If you have a dog that's a real escape artist or is a massive chewer (of the sort you can't puppy-proof for, because they'll eat through things like drywall), it's not kind to let them destroy their teeth, get blockages, run away, etc. Of course one should try different management and training approaches to mitigate the problem, but in the meantime you can't just let the dog kill itself or destroy the house.

 

I don't really see a moral or practical difference between confining the dog in crate, versus in a pen or even a room like a mudroom or bathroom. I mean, if the crate is tiny, sure, but a crate shouldn't be cramped. For a puppy, what's the real difference between a crate and a pen? The pen doesn't have a lid? That just means the pen is escapable for an athletic dog, and ergo less practical, not that the pen is more humane.

To me the difference between a cage that’s pretty much the size if the dog itself which confines the dog to it’s position and prevents them from behave naturally compared to a space where they can move and act naturally is obvious. The absolute majority of the crates I’ve seen are absolutely tiny considering the time they’re being used.

I really don’t understand how you can equalize a crate to a room or even a pen. Then the dog is allowed to walk around, move, lay in different positions, properly stretch. The small size of the crate is limiting the dog from engaging in natural behaviors which the other options don’t, therefore they’re more humane.

You can just ask yourself if it would matter to spend a day in a room or in a cage that’s just big enough for you to lay down in.

However when the dogs are not puppies anymore the idea is to give them free access to most of the house. However I see no issue with confining them in a particular room while gone and I can’t see how you could equalize that to a crate.

In a lot of situations, too, crates are the lesser evil. If you have a dog that's a real escape artist or is a massive chewer (of the sort you can't puppy-proof for, because they'll eat through things like drywall), it's not kind to let them destroy their teeth, get blockages, run away, etc. Of course one should try different management and training approaches to mitigate the problem, but in the meantime you can't just let the dog kill itself or destroy the house.

The dog you’re describing either suffer from extreme separation anxiety and/or under-stimulation or similar. Obviously this dog is under great amount of stress and shouldn’t be left in that condition. This is also my point, a crate will allow the owner to escape responsibility to properly train or take care of their dog since they can stop the behavior that affects them by shutting the dog in a crate. Meanwhile the dog does still suffer from the same issues, the only difference is that they can’t make no mess due to the crate.

 

The amount of time in a crate that is right for a dog varies. Some puppies are very non-destructive and learn to settle quickly, so they don't need to be crated as often. Others will eat walls and run circles around the house and be unholy terrors no matter how much mental and physical stimulation they get, so they need to spend a little more time in confinement.

For my dog, he was usually crate for 16 hours a day as a pup (8 hours at night, 8 hours while we were away at work). Other than that, he was generally pretty trustworthy as long as we were in the house (we got him at 6 months old, though, so a bit more mature). But, if your pup can't be trusted to not eat furniture, you might have to crate him when you do things like shower, cook, or anything where you can't 100% be watching the pup.

It doesn't have to be that way forever, though, just until your pup learns proper manners. My dog now spends the majority of his time free, but he gradually earned that freedom over the course of a few years of not eating furniture or books.

So, give your pup as much free, outside of the crate time as you can, but also use the crate when he needs it. It's going to depend entirely on your dog!

 

(I don't really see a moral or practical difference between confining the dog in crate, versus in a pen or even a room like a mudroom or bathroom.)

It may be in the general idea of a crate.. big enough to stand and lie down, that's kinda it. Pens and rooms are usually big enough to move around in.
Willow's pen is good size...and yes, we had to put a top on.
Just a different perception, perhaps. Crates, rooms or pens, what ever it takes to keep a pup safe. And I'm assuming most people are using them mostly for puppies, or new adoptions. Probably a rare occurrence that an adult dog needs one "full time".

 

It may be in the general idea of a crate.. big enough to stand and lie down, that's kinda it.

Sure, I think that's the advice for crate size (or to use a divider to make a larger crate that size) if you have a difficult-to-housetrain dog, because they won't dirty where they have to lay, so you can get them in the habit of not relieving themselves indoors when left unattended. But for a dog that's already got the concept of housetraining, I don't see any reason the crate has to be that small.

 

I think we come from vastly different cultures and short of showing you hundreds of videos of dogs very contently enjoying their crate, I don't know what to say?

I am very open minded to the idea of not crating dogs. If this country banned crates tomorrow, I would not be out there protesting. I would make better use of pens, baby gates, tethers, etc. That said, it doesn't really seem like you are here to learn more about how crates can be positive. You've made some pretty general statements correlating use of crates to irresponsible pet ownership.

If I may ask, have you been to this country? Have you ever seen a dog enjoying their crate? Have you worked with police dogs? If not, you are making broad assumptions about a few things here. (for example, assuming police dogs receive stimulation on par with pet dogs... ) You say you've "talked to dozen of owners that need help with their dog that shows clear signs of distress, under-stimulation, discomfort and separation anxiety, meanwhile they’re crating their dogs for hours each day and stand by that method." Are you a trainer who works with families in this country who crate their dogs?

 

That said, it doesn't really seem like you are here to learn more about how crates can be positive

I’ve said that I’m prepared to agree with the use of crates if they’re used in a good way and for necessary reasons. But the daily lock up for hours I’ll never see as positive, no.

If I may ask, have you been to this country?

No unfortunately not. I get my information from reading about it, talking to people. Informative programs etc.

Have you ever seen a dog enjoying their crate?

Yes, I have. I’ve seen them use it as a resting place, a cozy place. However I’ve never seen a dog enjoy being locked up for hours every day. Just because they occasionally like being in the crate I don’t think it justifies locking them in there for hours daily.

Have you worked with police dogs?

No unfortunately not. Something I would like to do in the future though. I based that comment on that the article claimed that the dogs were properly stimulated.

You say you've "talked to dozen of owners that need help with their dog that shows clear signs of distress, under-stimulation, discomfort and separation anxiety, meanwhile they’re crating their dogs for hours each day and stand by that method." Are you a trainer who works with families in this country who crate their dogs?

No, these are people that I’ve talked to online. I’m no trainer and have never claimed to be. However I’m very interested and briefed in dog care, behavior, training etc. I also study behavior, biology, evolution and genetics of the dog, ethology and animal welfare. I don’t think you need to be an educated trainer to decide how you think a dog should be cared for.

I've personally seen hundreds of dogs enjoy their crates. Not just tolerate - but enjoy. Behaviors that indicate enjoyment:
-dog willingly goes in, and chooses to go in without prompting
-dog chooses to sleep in the crate when other options (ex. floor, couch, dog bed) are available
-dog shows loose and happy body language when in the crate, including ability to express full range of motion (ex. lying on back with legs splayed)
-dog chooses to enter crate in stressful situations (ex. loud sounds, strangers, etc)
-dog brings other motivators (ex. food, toys) into the crate when other options are available to enjoy those items

With this argument the dog willingly and voluntary would want to be in their crate, right? Even if it’s for 8 hours. Why would you need to lock them up then? If this is your argument then there would be no need to even close the door. But I can guarantee you that most dogs that would be left in an open crate would choose to leave it eventually. Because it’s not natural for the dog to be locked up in a small cage for hours and hours. Therefore you need to restrain them and can’t let them choose.

I’m not arguing that some dogs don’t like to spend some time in their crate. I understand that it can be a great resting place where they won’t be bothered. But just because they like to spend time there occasionally doesn’t mean they enjoy being restrained to a small cage for 8 hours.

Yes, a crate is a space, just like a room. But the difference is the size of the space. The small size of crates are unnatural and inhumane if used for too long or too often.

If a dog is in distress when loose in a room, but shows calm body language in a crate, then in that scenario a crate is more humane for that dog than being in a loose room (I know this dog, btw).

That could also just be because of learned helplessness. The dog might be as distressed but is taught that he can’t affect the situation.

There are many ways to manage a dog, and the crate is one of many efficient tools that can work. Of all the pet issues plaguing this country (there are many!), the use of crates is almost a nonissue next to so many others that exist.

I’m not saying that there aren’t worse ways to care for a dog. But just because there are other worse issues, doesn’t mean you should ignore the other ones. And according to me the misuse and abusive use of crates is a very big issue which causes a lot of harm. It’s also one of the most common dog care issue so therefore it’s not definitely not a “nonissue”.

 

I'll take one more stab at sharing a different perspective than yours - not to convince you to like crates or use them, but perhaps to help you see that not all use of crates (even for 8 hours during the day) are detrimental do the dog. No sentiments, just facts.

I've personally seen hundreds of dogs enjoy their crates. Not just tolerate - but enjoy. Behaviors that indicate enjoyment:
-dog willingly goes in, and chooses to go in without prompting
-dog chooses to sleep in the crate when other options (ex. floor, couch, dog bed) are available
-dog shows loose and happy body language when in the crate, including ability to express full range of motion (ex. lying on back with legs splayed)
-dog chooses to enter crate in stressful situations (ex. loud sounds, strangers, etc)
-dog brings other motivators (ex. food, toys) into the crate when other options are available to enjoy those items

A crate is a space, just like a room or a pen or a hallway blocked off by a gate. In behavior, management of space is an antecedent. It can function as an establishing operation (ex. dog wants more space and movement after being crated), or an abolishing operation (ex. decrease the dog's desire to be in confinement). I agree that if crating causes an excessive desire for space and movement, or causes the dog to want confinement less and less, then crating is punishing and inhumane for that dog. However, if a dog is crated and the dog shows no change in behavior (ex. not more or less willing to be crated next time), then the crate is not punishing. If the dog shows an increase in behavior (ex. chooses to enter crate more and spend more time in it), then the crate is rewarding. ALL scenarios exist in the use of crates. The crate in itself is no more or less punishing than any other setup. This is in contrast to other tools that are banned in other countries (ex. shock collar), which by design is a punishing tool used to decrease behaviors. When discussing behavior, the learner decides if a stimulus is punishing. IE, It is less useful for people to say "crates are bad" than to observe the behaviors of the dog that is crated. There are many dogs who find crates punishing. But there are also many dogs who find crates reinforcing. If a dog is in distress when loose in a room, but shows calm body language in a crate, then in that scenario a crate is more humane for that dog than being in a loose room (I know this dog, btw).

Here's my opinion. I could care less if crates are banned tomorrow. Puppies and dogs need management, which varies depending on their behavior and the household they live in. There are many ways to manage a dog, and the crate is one of many efficient tools that can work. Of all the pet issues plaguing this country (there are many!), the use of crates is almost a nonissue next to so many others that exist.

 

Why don't you just try a playpen I think it would be nice during the day and willget your dog a lot of playing space.

 

Why don't you just try a playpen I think it would be nice during the day and will get your dog a lot of playing space.

Crate training if done right is a much better solution, but sure it's not for every dog you just have to make a choice, I personally start with crate training but if my dog rejects the crate I would use the playpen to help crate training but it's just personal preference, again if you have to crate during the day and it will take too long it's going to end up hurting the dog better to use a playpen. I don't see the playpen as an alternative to the crate but again it depends on how much time you have and if there is someone home at all times you want to see this post maybe it will give perspective on what you should use.

 

I've never used an ex-pen. This photo is from the breeder of my Story and shows what one of her littermates did with an ex-pen. I had another even cuter picture from another friend of her Rottie puppy doing the same (and even closer to freedom) but can't find it.

 

Yep, our new pup, Willow, did that on day two.
Solution...we removed two panels and made a lid. She still has plenty of room and is safe from herself while we are gone.

 

🤷‍♀️ No, you don't need to be an educated trainer to have an opinion on how to care for dogs. But everyone seems to be enough of an expert these days to make broad claims about training without hands on experience on the topic they are advising on. There are many things that dog professionals disagree on in this country. The general use of crates (yes, to lock dogs up in during the day) is not one of them. I am speaking from thousands of hours of hands on, professional experience. But if your internet conversations grant you more wisdom, then all the more power to you.

To the OP and anyone else reading this and considering a crate for their dog, my recommendations are the same - the crate can be a wonderful tool if the dog is trained to enjoy it, if the dog shows no distress when crated. There are many resources that help you do this. Here is one by kikopup (no affiliation to me, just a great trainer and a great channel for training resources):

To folks feeling guilt over crating their dog over a work day, I recommend setting up a camera and seeing what behaviors your dogs are exhibiting when crated. If they are calm, enjoying food enrichment, sleeping, etc. then they are fine. If they are showing stress signals (heavy panting, pacing, digging, chewing the bars, excessive vocalization, salivating, etc.) then either the crate is not a good option or you should reduce the number of hours your dog is crated. Obvious factors to take into account - make sure the dog has appropriate exercise and enrichment prior to leaving them alone (crate or not).

 

🤷‍♀️ No, you don't need to be an educated trainer to have an opinion on how to care for dogs. But everyone seems to be enough of an expert these days to make broad claims about training without hands on experience on the topic they are advising on. There are many things that dog professionals disagree on in this country. The general use of crates (yes, to lock dogs up in during the day) is not one of them. I am speaking from thousands of hours of hands on, professional experience. But if your internet conversations grant you more wisdom, then all the more power to you.

I don’t know why you’re focusing on me not having hands on experience with crate training in the states. Like I’ve said previously, I base my opinion on the facts around dogs behavior and needs. Being confined into a small space for hours and hours, everyday, immensely interferes with a dogs natural behavior, habits and needs. But you’re welcome to prove me otherwise.

I’m sorry but the fact that most American trainers agree with the use of crates or your thousands of hours of hands on, professional experience, does not matter to me or reassure me of any competence regarding the subject. I don’t know why you think it would if my point is that Americans have not understood the harm of crates or questioned the use of them in the aspect hey should. I don’t either really understand what you mean by the last part. Are you saying that there are not cases where the use of a crate itself is the reason for a problem? Or what is it I have been misinformed about through my internet conversations? Does this not happen do you mean?

Just a quick comment on something that was said in the video:
“A good sign that your dog is loving the crate is that he offers to go in again”.
Ehhm.. I mean, you do understand that the dog goes in there because he wants the treat and not because he loves the crate. If I taught a dog to stand on its hind legs and then they start doing it on their own, it doesn’t mean they love standing on its hind legs but that they understand what they have to do to get the treat.

Honestly, I was imagining that the crate ban was tied to an effort to reduce puppy mills or something, but that doesn't seem to be a problem in many European countries. So I am perplexed here.

We have other rules to control that. For example you need permission/license to breed three or more litters a year. Or to sell puppies from three, or more, litters a year. So without the license you can only breed two litters a year.

To get permission/license, you need to have competence regarding following:

• The dog's behavior, including unwanted behaviors that affect the animal or keeping of the animal negatively.
• The dog's basic physiological needs including needs for movement.
• The dog's need for a good social and physical environment.
• Stress in dogs.
• Simpler infection control.
• Supervision and care of dogs and simpler dog care.
• Animal welfare legislation.
• Breeding-related problems in the dog population affected.

And the location needs to be inspected and approved.

So if cages were legal it wouldn’t allow puppymills to exist either way.

But if crating is deemed so unanimously cruel, it should be easy to find research that proves this point. Not research done on working dogs that don't live in homes. Not research done on shelter dogs. There is research that shows the physiology of dogs living in kennel conditions is entirely different than that of dogs living in homes. My shelter participated in studies that show how even one stress hormone is present in drastically different amounts between kenneled dogs and owned dogs. So what we need is research done on companion dogs whose owners utilize a crate - the study size would be thousands, given how popular crates are in this country.

To be fair I don’t think you can assume that it’s not harmful because the lack of research on the subject. On the other hand I think you should be required to be able to proof that the way you care for a dog is not harmful or abusive. Not the other way around. With that argument you’re claiming that you should be allowed to care or handle your dog in whatever way you want unless you have a study that proofs it to be wrong. Not to apply all the science and facts about dogs to different situation to determine if it’s harmful or not.

And my point have also been that the use of crates have not been questioned as they should. It’s a comfortable thing to believe in so people don’t seem to be interested in finding out if it’s harmful or not.

However I did provide sources that indicated the harm and negative effects by the use of cages. Which you by some reason dismissed and claimed that they didn’t assume crating to be harmful..

“In a survey of 203 dog owners, Kobelt (2003) found a negative correlation between incorrectly placed behaviors and the size of the resting yard and walking frequency, respectively.“

“A stimulus-poor environment that prevents the dog from performing its natural behavior is a common reason for stereotypes to develop (Schipper et al., 2008).”

“In a bachelor's thesis, Olby (2017) conducted a survey with owners of 75 dogs in convalescence after orthopedic surgery, as the dog has a lower activity level and limited areas to move on, and found that both the incidence of stereotypical and misplaced behaviors increased.“

“Stress can be triggered if the dog's movement possibilities are limited, for example if it is tied up or stays in a kennel or cage for longer periods, but also if it is allowed to be in the garden without being allowed to go out and walk.”

“Situations that can contribute to the dog learning helplessness are if it is subjected to one or more shocks, or if it is trapped in a cage, resting yard or is chained or tied up for longer than short periods.”

How does this not indicate that crating have a negative effect on the dog? I asked before but you haven’t replied to that. I also asked what in PETAs article was straight up wrong.

 

I want to add that, in all fairness, I do fine Sunflower's points to be interesting and I am not trying to argue for the sake of arguing. I do follow the science as best as I can, in my personal and professional training. I think it would be interesting if crates were outright banned, and like I said I would not be up in arms if that were the case (I could say the same for a lot of training tools). I would actually love to see a world where crates are no longer needed. And in my personal training I use a crate to teach skills that later allow my dog to be free roaming. That said, I've made it pretty clear that I have no issue with the idea of crates themselves.

I've tried really hard to find research surrounding the effects of crating on companion dogs. I've also tried to learn why dog crates are banned in Sweden. (The vet I work with has lived and worked in Sweden for years, so I'll check in with her.). I've read a lot of fair articles that debate the use of the crate. But there is nothing objective on the topic. It's kind of like the breed ban in the States. There is no actual science that supports it but there are laws on it anyways. This is in contrast to laws like the shock collar ban - there are tomes of studies that show the negative effects of shock collars, even as many people have gotten desirable results from the tool. Honestly, I was imagining that the crate ban was tied to an effort to reduce puppy mills or something, but that doesn't seem to be a problem in many European countries. So I am perplexed here.

But if crating is deemed so unanimously cruel, it should be easy to find research that proves this point. Not research done on working dogs that don't live in homes. Not research done on shelter dogs. There is research that shows the physiology of dogs living in kennel conditions is entirely different than that of dogs living in homes. My shelter participated in studies that show how even one stress hormone is present in drastically different amounts between kenneled dogs and owned dogs. So what we need is research done on companion dogs whose owners utilize a crate - the study size would be thousands, given how popular crates are in this country.

 

The PETA article was wrong because it was full of absolute statements without a shred of evidence. It's not really worth debating with you Sunflower because you lack enough of an understanding of dog behavior to discuss this objectively. You wrote

"“A good sign that your dog is loving the crate is that he offers to go in again”.
Ehhm.. I mean, you do understand that the dog goes in there because he wants the treat and not because he loves the crate. If I taught a dog to stand on its hind legs and then they start doing it on their own, it doesn’t mean they love standing on its hind legs but that they understand what they have to do to get the treat."

That is the very basis of R+ training, to increase behavior - to increase the dog's desire to perform a behavior. Whereas if the crate was punishing, or induced a state of shut down stress, the dog would not choose to go in it as frequently or stay in it as long. I KNOW that a dog going in willingly does not equate a dog being locked in. But how a dog behaves when not locked can inform how the dog feels when locked in, because the same stimulus is being used on the dog. Also, because you keep referencing learned helplessness... There is a vast different between "calm behavior" and absence of behavior/shut down. You can tell if a dog is shut down in a crate, versus performing natural and calm behavior. I have seen both.

In contrast, the studies you keep referencing are valid but you are using them to make correlations. And that is simply not how it works.

You brought up the idea that maybe folks in the country haven't asked the question of 'why crates' enough. I think that's a very interesting idea! So interesting that I emailed two canine researchers and posted the question on a FB group centered around canine behavior analysis. But here's the flipside... How much has Sweden asked the question 'why not crates'? It is worthy to consider that too!

Someone provided me this link: https://cratesinsweden.wixsite.com/crates/crates-in-sweden
And here's what I've found so far:
This article mentions "There's been studies showing that dogs stored in crates get abnormal behaviors. (Suzanne Hetts et. al. 1991, Robert C. Hubrecht et al 1992; Bonnie Beerda et al 1999)."

Suzanne Hetts, 1992 "Influence of housing conditions on beagle behavior" http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download... Done in a laboratory setting. Her 1991 is https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2053257/. I can't see the full article but it is not focused on crates/companion dogs.

Robert Hubrecht 1992 "Correlates of pen size and housing conditions on the behaviour of kennelled dogs"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/.../abs/pii/S0168159105800966
Study done on dogs in animal shelters and labs

Bonnie Beerda et all 1999 "Chronic stress in dogs subjected to social and spatial restriction. I. Behavioral responses". https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10336149/
Again, I can't access the full article but this is the first sentence in the abstract "Six weeks of social and spatial restriction were used as a model to induce chronic stress in Beagles."

Sunflower, believe it or not I am looking for hard evidence to validate YOUR viewpoint. Because I am open to it. But like I said, you don't seem open at all to seeing my (our?) viewpoint. I have objective information on how dogs behave in crates but me being American and a professional with thousands of hours means nothing to you. So 🤷‍♀️ . I will take this debate to other professionals who may be able to find me the answers I'm looking for.

 

The PETA article was wrong because it was full of absolute statements without a shred of evidence.

You can’t say that it’s flat out wrong just because it doesn’t provide evidence. However you might not consider it to be a credible source then, but that’s different. The article you linked on crate training made a lot of statements without a shred of evidence as well.. They also claimed things that are straight up false, which have been disproved.

It's not really worth debating with you Sunflower because you lack enough of an understanding of dog behavior to discuss this objectively.

Haha oh please tell me how you come to that conclusion. Intrigued to hear your reasoning behind this.

Was it just because I claimed that the dog went into the crate for the treat and not because they loved the actual crate? That comment was directed at the clip in the video where you can see that the dog starts understanding what she wants him to do and therefore goes back in the crate. Then she made the comment that this was showing that the dog loved the crate.

I’m perfectly aware on how positive reinforcements, positive association and conditioning works and have used this methods a lot when training. But please, explain how I lack understanding in dog behavior. I know I lack understanding in dog behavior, we all do, there’s always more to learn. But tell me more specifically what I’m lacking.

My opinion is that you obviously lack full understanding of dogs behavior and needs since you don’t think crates have a negative effect on dogs. But I won’t claim that it’s not worth debating with you because of it..

You brought up the idea that maybe folks in the country haven't asked the question of 'why crates' enough. I think that's a very interesting idea! So interesting that I emailed two canine researchers and posted the question on a FB group centered around canine behavior analysis. But here's the flipside... How much has Sweden asked the question 'why not crates'? It is worthy to consider that too!

To be fair I don’t think we have to question it since it’s not we who are risking abusing our dogs. However I of course wish there would be more studies on this subject. For me the knowledge and studies of dogs behavior is enough to understand the negative effects of cages. I mean we have no need to question it but of course it would be good.

 

Well, I was trying to stay out of this, but I do feel I have a little bit of insight as an American living in Scandinavia. I think there's a bit of culture clash going on here, because in my experience (which is, to be clear, with Norway) Scandinavian dog culture is very different from my experience (again, mostly urban and suburban New England) US dog culture.

1: Many, many more people in the US rent. This means smaller living spaces for everyone, and small apartments can be incredibly difficult to puppy-proof, especially studios with very few actual enclosed rooms. It also means that minor damage that wouldn't be a big deal to the dog owner - scratches in the door, some puppy tooth marks in the baseboard, stains on the carpet - can become a big deal if the landlord objects. It can also be incredibly difficult to find dog-friendly housing in some regions, especially if you have a dog over 20lbs/9kgs or a 'notorious' breed, so the threat of having to choose between your dog and a roof over your head can be very real. Saying nobody who rents can responsibly own a dog is a vast oversimplification and flatly not true.

2: US work culture sucks. Not for everyone, but in general. Calling off sick is highly frowned upon. Vacation time is scarce, especially if you have to work multiple part-time jobs due to the tanked economy. It's certainly not normal to get 2+ solid weeks off every summer, as it is in much of Europe. And losing your job means losing your health insurance in many cases (yes, Medicare exists - for now - but it's rife with issues). Flexible hours, working from home (until recently), and/or a dog-friendly workplace are rare commodities. Taking time off for a new puppy is a wonderful thing to try to do, but it's just not always feasible in the American work culture, and again, it's simply not realistic to say nobody should own a dog unless they're retired, a homemaker, or have the luxury of lots of time off stored up.

3: The US is much less dog-friendly. Tying into the above, you just can't bring your dog a lot of places compared to what I've experienced in Norway. I suspect some of it has to do with how litigious US culture is - for example, many workplaces ban dogs to avoid the risk of being held liable if someone gets bitten. Many landlords ban dogs because it raises the insurance premiums for their properties (since that insurance is what would cover a bite or major property damage). Taking a dog that has a SRP (separation related problem) or is just a teething puppy with you is just not possible many places.

4: Dogs are incredibly easy to get in the US. That's not something I see as a good thing, btw. But irresponsible pet stores, retail rescue, puppy mills and brokers, and legions of backyard breeders mean that many more dogs seem to be impulse purchased in the US than in Norway. No, I don't have statistics on that, it's just the impression I get. And yes, Norway at least still does have irresponsible breeding going on, but nowhere near the volume the US experiences. This means that many people ARE unprepared for a dog when they get one, which sucks, but we can't realistically tell them just to give the dog back. We can educate and educate until we turn blue but right now we don't have a good solution here, and many commercial dog breeders learn how to talk a good game to avoid sounding like the mills they are.

5: The homeless dog population. Whoa boy, the homeless dog population. When someone DOES wind up with a dog that they're not prepared for, or one with an unexpected SRP or way more energy/drive than the home was prepared for, they can TRY to rehome. But very often, especially in the case of socialization/separation issues, there are precious few homes willing to take on problem dogs. While I greatly dislike the idea that you should NEVER EVER rehome a dog for ANY REASON, Americans still need to understand the reality where, if these dogs go into the shelter system, the chance that they'll make it out alive is slim to none. And in some cases, they can languish for years in kennels waiting for someone willing to take on their worsening behavior problems. Keeping the dog in the home they have is important in these cases, even if that means using less than ideal management to work through issues, when the alternative is a life wholly in high-stress kennel environments or euth.

I'll be honest. I crate very little. Tried with our older dog, and found that he was much more comfortable (and less distressed) being left out, first confined in our bedroom (which was relatively dog-proofed at the time), then the apartment. Now, he was my first dog ever and my wife's first dog as an adult, so the training there was lacking. Our youngest got crated at night for a while, and now rides in a car crate, but we went the pen route for his day-to-day confinement. We had the luxury of having an apartment that, while not feasible to puppy-proof, did have space to squeeze a pen in. It did require me to be willing and able to do several things that wouldn't be an option for everyone, including screwing the pen into the wall so the puppy couldn't shove it all around the apartment and get at things that weren't safe for him (almost all of the apartments I lived in in the US frowned greatly upon putting holes in the walls for any reason). Which he did even after a good month I had at home with him doing pen/separation training before I had to start attending school in person again.

But that was my choice, for my situation. I can't really judge someone for going with a crate instead. I do believe that the goal with crate training should ALWAYS be to reduce the time spent inside as soon as safely and feasibly possible, but understand that this is much more difficult with some dogs than others.

We do a lot of things that impact dogs' natural behavior and can negatively impact them in the name of keeping them safe. Collars can cause damage to the trachea, thyroid, or even neck vertebrae. Harnesses, although responsible for fewer acute issues than collars, do restrict the dog's natural movement and full extension of their shoulders. Leashes are entirely unnatural and cause many dogs issues when greeting other dogs because they can't express natural body language.

Perhaps more pointedly, we no longer just let our dogs out the front door to run loose in the morning and let them back in at dinnertime. Many trainers who were active in the 70s when this was popular (at least in the US) report that dogs then had many fewer issues with understimulation, lack of exercise and related issues (eg obesity), and dog-dog social skills. That doesn't mean that confining them to fenced areas, leashes, and long lines is cruel, but it does mean we have to consciously change how we interact with our dogs and ensure their needs are met. I personally feel the same about crates. They can be used cruelly, but with appropriate mental and physical stimulation, the downsides can be balanced. Like Canyx, I want to reach a place where they're not needed, and pens (at least) are more popular and more accessible, but we're not there yet.

I'd also - and not trying to be snarky here, this is genuine - really want to know how you would manage a dog with genuine separation anxiety that requires both pharmaceutical intervention and training, who will seriously injure themselves if not restrained, during the period it takes for the medication to on-board and then the training to be effective (which can quite literally take months), if you have to work outside the home to afford the dog's treatment? This is one of those 'no good solutions' scenarios that always bothers me, so I'd love to hear what your take on it is.

Oh, and about the PETA thing. It doesn't matter if the article has good information. By citing them you imply that you find them a generally good source of information (whether or not you do) and agree with their overall mission (which is to end the keeping of all animals, domestic or otherwise, including euthanizing those that can't survive in the wild), and their practices (like financially supporting domestic terrorist groups like the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front - here if you're interested). It undermines your credibility in a debate, even if the article is technically factual. It'd be kind of like if I said "Cesar Milan says it's important to exercise dogs" - the natural assumption is that I'm citing him because I generally agree with his training methods and philosophy, which I do not, even if this is one case where he's generally correct.

 

Well said, Daysleepers.

I'd also - and not trying to be snarky here, this is genuine - really want to know how you would manage a dog with genuine separation anxiety that requires both pharmaceutical intervention and training, who will seriously injure themselves if not restrained, during the period it takes for the medication to on-board and then the training to be effective (which can quite literally take months), if you have to work outside the home to afford the dog's treatment? This is one of those 'no good solutions' scenarios that always bothers me, so I'd love to hear what your take on it is.

I want to talk about this point briefly. I started as very pro-crate for separation issues IF the dog is already conditioned to enjoy their crate. But I've had some really interesting talks with Malena DeMartini and she pretty much never uses crates in treating severe separation anxiety. Her words during our conversation were something like 'I cannot think of a case where a crate was part of the solution'. I am still wrapping my head around the idea and to be fair Malena did not say that crates can never be part of the solution. Just that they often times are unnecessary and that they do sometimes inhibit progress. I think the treatment process for SA is very, very meticulous. Prescribed desensitization, behavior meds, and then literally putting resources into never leaving the dog alone (daycare, sitter, stay with a friend, etc). I've presented the idea of adding some operant training to help with the process (ex. Chirag's bucket-game style training to teach the dog to 'start' separation training, shaping calm behaviors on a mat, etc.). Malena entertained my ideas but said that pure DS was, in general and in her experience, the fastest way to progress.

 

Thank you, DaySleepers, for inserting some logic, insight and a somewhat unique perspective into an increasingly divisive topic.

There is sometimes a fine line between presenting an opinion that one is passionate about and berating anyone who does not share that opinion. Moderators have the inenviable responsibility of deciding when a topic has crossed that line.

This one is getting close.

 

Thank you for that clarification @Canyx. I know I've heard of people using heavy-duty crates for dogs who will, for example, break through windows or otherwise risk extreme injury in their anxiety, but as I've never worked with a genuine separation anxiety dog, I couldn't really speak to whether crating was common or not as an overall strategy.

I did see a talk by a veterinary behaviorist on pharmaceutical intervention recently, and she mentioned that in extreme cases she's worked with she'll prescribe a sedative as well as an anxiety medication, essentially practicing chemical restraint on a dog that's an extreme danger to itself. I'm not sure how I feel about chemical vs. physical restraint in that case, and suspect it'd depend heavily on the individual dog and situation.

 

Didn't know I can @ people @DaySleepers! Yeah, I've heard of situations where people pretty much sedate the dog to prevent harm. But I'd like to imagine that it is a last resort scenario, as it pretty much functions like a bandaid over the problem. A lot of this tips over into discussions of quality of life and owners of SA dogs are constantly making hard decisions, evaluating numerous pros and cons. But I've had some pretty hard discussions along the lines of - the person needs to make a living to support themselves and their dog, the dog cannot be left alone, what is the dog's quality of life when it is drugged to the point of sedation so that the owner can go out and make a living, no resources for alternatives, is euthanasia more humane. It truly is a horrible challenge to deal with. The other crazy thing is I've seen many instances where the maximum safe dosage of a drug or cocktail or drugs does not sedate a dog enough. Really heartbreaking for all parties involved. Many shelters that are limited intake do not place dogs with severe SA. I can't speak for the whole country, but I am relieved that in my area incidences of truly severe SA are rare.

 

This is a bit off topic from crating, so I apologize if this is inappropriate for this sub (and please feel free to delete).

But I was so tickled by this thread and I want to share that discourse on this forum has led to some pretty tangible outcomes for me in real life. As I mentioned, I reached out to some scientists about this topic. I am now in the middle of discussions with two separate canine behavior researchers about the possibility of doing canine welfare studies at my shelter. I was also talking to a someone with a PhD in behavior analysis whose done a lot of canine research, and was encouraged to pursue a Masters in applied animal welfare and behavior. Zoom meeting scheduled to learn more. Full disclaimer - none of this is to say that things will come to fruition. But the point is, I appreciate debate, different perspective, and opportunities to ask hard questions.

PS. No one I contacted had any studies answering the crate question. I asked a LOT of people, from researchers to certified professional trainers. There is a really interesting study on beagles in a lab setting, and findings implied quality of space matters more than quantity of space (Hetts, 1992 - "Influence of housing conditions on beagle behavior"). But lab setting, small sample size of 18 beagles. Someone needs to do a crate study on owned dogs!