What the...??? I have found a lot of help here, and I have a dog aggressive dog that I let off leash (in confined areas)...no one has ever attacked me. I am sorry you feel the way you, but YOU were the one who turned around and attacked another member after not liking what they had to say. Your statements were uneducated and inflamatory so how did you expect to be treated?

 

And now please unregister me, as I no longer wish to be a part of an abusive community. No one needs to be hit when they are down. Thank you.

No need to be unregistered. Just don't return to this internet address.

 

And now I want to say that dog forums are the worse thing that could happen when you need help with an animal. I hope to post this on another forum to warn people of them People here are rude and abusive towards members instead of helping, and this abusiveness is allowed, and I imagine that these very same abusive people are those with aggressive dogs, and that they are abusive towards those in the community as well. And yet if a member fights back their thread is closed down and they are accused of being mean. Why would any one want an aggressive dog if they were not aggressive themselves?

And now please unregister me, as I no longer wish to be a part of an abusive community. No one needs to be hit when they are down. Thank you.

Maybe its ignorant and hurtful statements like this that cause people to be hard on you...hmmm?

A lot of people were giving you good advice and wishing you luck on a hard decision...and one person disagreed w/you and gave their opinion ...and you went into full attack mode on a breed that is owned by members of this forum....people are going to fight when incorrect and ridiculous things are posted about their breed..

I agree 100% with BMI21

 

I think it's a reflection of their personalities, but in a good way. By them stating their opinions and giving you the reality of their ownership of these dogs, they're sticking up for them and fighting for them just like they do offline. You, however, jumped the gun and instead of taking the time to educate yourself, you gave up. Much like you did with your dog.

 

That previous thread was closed for your own protection. You were in the process of digging yourself a very deep hole, but now it's apparent that that's where you want to be.

You came to dogforums in crisis mode. The only responsible suggestion for you was a professional behavorist. You insisted on equating that to a trainer, and apparently even that was not an option for you, so I wonder what you expected from us.

You say you didn't want sympathy, but there is plenty of sympathy for your dog and your neighbor's dog. Your insistence that Rags was fine off-lead "as long as other dogs aren't around" resulted in the death of two dogs. There is no way to sugar-coat that.

We cannot "unregister" you. Just log out and people will forget about you soon-enough.

Regarding the "unfriendly" nature of this community - I'll address that in another thread. http://www.dogforums.com/7-off-topic/44822-dog-forums-not-crisis.html#post468707 That topic, and this thread, have nothing to do with dog training.

 

pot.....


.....kettle.....black....

or something like that.

Here is a little tidbit.

Pit Bulls.

www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com

www.forpitssake.org

www.understand-a-bull.com





please don't talk out of the side of your mouth just to bash and insult people's dogs..How would you feel if someone said

*Mocha is a stupid nasty ugly dog and id shoot her if I had the chance.*

You said something very similar to the responsible pit bull owners of this forum. Something that in MY real life I hear a lot. Even though I put more effort time and sweat into making my dog life the best possible than your average person does with their own life.

 

Whoa, I thought I was going to read about "Training Dogs To Be Off Leash". Dang, I love the internet.

 

whoa, i thought i was going to read about "training dogs to be off leash". Dang, i love the internet.

.....sike!

 

I agree that some people in forums and be abusive and I also know that some people have a hard time sifting through that.
I am also happy to her about how you worked with you dog. Not all dogs fit in square holes and they require different kinds of handling than the norm.
Thanks for sharing. You have to sift through the advice and pick what works for you and your animal.
I dissagree that forums are bad. There are a lot of good people here who will share information with you.
The reason advice is so cheap is it given by the bucketfulls. Good or bad, take it or leave it.
Best wishes.

 

Someone comes on an internet forum with a problem that has turned tragic. Said someone is seeking solutions to said problem. Said someone dismisses all proffered solutions. Said someone valiantly defends all actions said someone has taken leading up to, during, and after said tragedy. Said someone accuses all those who tried to help of being abusive, and leaves in a dramatic huff.

I love that about that internet.

 

This is all I have to say:

The doctor who wrote this article is a behaviorist

Nicholas Dodman
Professor
Section Head and Program Director, Animal Behavior
Department of Clinical Sciences

You all said that he didn’t know what he was talking about.

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/behavior/staff.shtml


http://www.petplace.com/dogs/predatory-aggression/page1.aspx

He wrote: “There is no good treatment for predatory aggression. The manifestation of a high arousal level, a fixed focus on the prey subject, and difficulty distracting the dog, are all indicators of a poor prognosis.”

Even my own dog could have been killed by Rags since he was becoming more aggressive towards her. You cannot always control a dog like this, they can break away from you like Rags did me once. They can get out of the house running by you, they can get out when you are going through the gate, etc. Those with dogs that they know will kill another dog are risking the life of other animals. Period.

 

He wrote: “There is no good treatment for predatory aggression. The manifestation of a high arousal level, a fixed focus on the prey subject, and difficulty distracting the dog, are all indicators of a poor prognosis.”

I'm no professional trainer, nor a veterinarian... but I know this statement is extremely misleading.

On one hand, it is very true. There is no cure for predatory aggression when the dog is fixated on something it views as prey.

On the other hand, you aren't trying to cure their reaction. You're trying to keep them below 10. In fact, you're trying to keep them below 5.

The trick is to train them BEFORE they are off the Richter scale, not when they're already fully aroused. This is a very difficult job, but not one that is impossible by any means.


I haven't read the original thread, so I have no idea what all the drama is about, but the MOMENT you had any inclination that your dog might be aggressive towards anyone or anything, you should have ****NEVER**** let it off leash again. Desensitization works very well, but if you don't have a direct control over your dog, a small child could jump out of the bushes when your dog didn't expect it and all the sudden he's jumped straight to 10 and bites. That's the reality of it.



As far as etiquette on the forums go.... you'll run into a lot of people who rub you the wrong way. It's part of life. I've met people on these boards that I emotionally loathe. I absolutely hate their opinions and the way they talk to people. I don't leave the boards, and I don't attack them. I just ignore them.

Welcome to the interwebz, get thicker skin.

 

Not if you never open doors or gates without your dog either on a leash or behind another door or gate.

 

so i would have to keep my dog tied up. what a life. because it would be impossible to leave the house with a dog on a leash. It would be impossible to keep a dog in the yard that wants out by either digging or jumping over. it would be impossible for the meter man to walk into the yard. impossible to keep children out of the yard if they wantd to climb over. You are presenting an ideal situation, one that can't be produced at all times. Somehow we would have to get into the house and get a leash on him before he got out. I know now that I did the right thing. No one could convince me any different. And what should I have done with my other dog who Rags was being aggressive towards? Sorry. I just don't buy your idea or plan.

Leashing a dog is never the answer for a dog that has killed another dog. Too many things can happen.

 

I disagree with your entire post. With training a guidance, a dog can live a totally happy life on a leash every time it goes outside. Mine sure does!

Yeah, it means you can't just open the back door and let them go potty.
Yes, it means you can't just let them sit outside unsupervised.
It means on walks you have to have them trained to loose leash walk.

Honestly, I don't see any problems with any of that.

There are plenty of people on these forums who successfully own (some who have rehabilitated) aggressive dogs. Our dog Mesquite is one of these. She leads a totally happy life, but just can't be unsupervised in situations with strange men around. So what? Also, I may as well mention, she is nearly 100% rehabilitated now because we desensitized her while she was on a leash. Once she learned to ignore men, we started the process of making her LIKE men. It is more than possible to rehabilitate an aggressive dog, it just takes dedication and a very large body of knowledge.


If your dog already killed another dog, I totally understand. I'm not calling you out on making a bad decision after the fact (I didn't read the original thread, so I'm assuming you had him put down), I'm saying you probably made a whole lot of poor choices before hand. Dogs do not just all of the sudden snap and go kill another dog. He was probably giving off all kinds of signs that would have let you know he was building up some aggression.

 

Dogs have thresholds. The key in dealing with a dog to dog aggressive dog is to be able to recognize the body language that precipitates aggressive behavior and stop the situation from moving forward.

I have a dog who is aggressive towards other dogs.

When she plays with other dogs and I see her ears stand straight up and she starts getting what I call 'shark eyes' I know that means she is starting to get fed up and I stop the play and do some obedience training before allowing the play to resume. its called redirection. and it allows for another thing called desensitization where the more your aggressive dog is exposed to positive interaction with the thing that triggers the behavior problem without any negative interaction then the less the problem will manifest.

My dog is not kept tied up all the time. Only when there is no other barrier between her and situations where I cannot control the environment.

She has doggie friends and is well behaved. I've worked hard to get to this point but it is possible its called being proactive.

 

"so i would have to keep my dog tied up. what a life." Mocha'sMom

Well, at least proper management keeps your dog (and others) alive...
...and it doesn't have to be a miserable life.

Keeping a dog in your home and only allowing it outside on leash or in a safely fenced yard is really not that difficult. I keep all seven of our dogs happily in our home until I can take them out and supervise them. Inside I do have to keep several of them separated from the others for safety, so they are rotated between rooms and crates unless I can supervise them together. If one or more of them couldn't get along even when supervised, I would simply keep them apart. When we go outside if there's no fence, they go out on leashes individually or a few at a time. I watch for other people and dogs and react accordingly depending upon what dog(s) I have with me. If there's a fenced yard they won't try to get over, they can be free. They don't try to dig under fences, because I am there and they have been shown where to dig if that's what they want to do. I am there, so the neighbor kids or whoever can be invited to interact with the dogs, but if I feel like the dogs would be better left alone, we simply go inside. If the meter man or mailman or one of my clients and their dogs come up (I run a grooming business out of my home), I put the dogs inside. Proper management works, and it's only as "impossible" or difficult as you make it.

 

I just wonder how many city dogs there are that have never been off a lead when outside their whole lifes. I believe many of them live good lives, are they perfect lives as in fairy tales. no but not bad lives either. I'm just hearing a lot of nickle-dime excuses. OP has lost credibility with me.

 

The big thing with being on a dog forum is to get DIFFERENT OPINIONS. If you dont' like them.......well don't follow that persons advice. I don't believe anyone is trying to offend someone else. But some people believe there way is the ONLY way to do things and can't believe it when other people consider other options.

That is the beauty of forums and different minds. If you keep your mind open and opposed to nothing but consider all the possibilities ............... you will never be blind! I find this is a fault with many people who do training.......they think there is only one possible answer because its the way they use, but they have never tried another way. CLOSE MINDED and they will never get far when placed with a dog very different from there own.

..........having a variety in your tool box is more likely to fix the problem then a single answer.

In the end we get to make the finaly decision regarding our dogs.........right or wrong............what's done is done.

 

I read thru the other thread and there was one mistake the OP did in her handling of Rags and I was going to bring it up but the thread got out of the realm of reasonable and Carla (I love her.. I really do) took out the Moderator Scissors and snipped it... LOVE them Moderator scissors!!!

In that thread the OP said she would correct her dog when he showed aggression toward other dogs. While a collar correction CAN work on SOME dogs in this situation, the rest of the story is that this dog was fearful. In a fearful dog that is showing aggression toward something, a physical correction (aversive) CAN sometimes make the whole thing WORSE. Remember.. the dog is aggressing out of FEAR (why for the fear? who knows.. might be any reason or none). When you physically correct a fearful dog it will often escalate the fear and make the situation worse.

Fear aggression is different than aggression. In fear aggression, the best thing the handler can do is get between the dog and whatever he is fearful of and move both handler and dog AWAY from the object of fear until the dog is relaxed. When the dog is relaxed, you reward the dog (for relaxing and focusing on the handler). IOW's the handler is letting the dog know by body language that they are dealing with it and the dog does not need to. Body language is something dogs understand better than verbalizations.

To overcome fear aggression you only bring the dog close enough to NOT disturb his threshold. Reward profusely. If you cross the threshold and the dog acts aggressive, again, get between the dog and the Big Scarey (which can also be a Little Scarey in proportion to the dog's size). By getting between the dog and the scarey thing, the dog sees you are dealing with it.. and the dog can relax. This also works for just plain fear (with no aggression).

However, any sort of punishment can back fire as the dog relates the punishment NOT to his behavior but to the Bog Scarey thing thus escalation of the aggressive behavior.

Dogs not raised around people (unsocialized) can become fear aggressive towards people. Dogs raised around adults who are suddenly presented with children can show fear aggression towards children. Dogs raised around children and adults can be fear aggressive towards infants. Dogs raised singly with no dogs around can become fear aggressive of dogs. Dogs raised around big dogs can show fear aggression of small dogs...

IOW's This is why 4 socilaizing your dog as much as you can.. presenting the dog with all kinds of different situations and rewarding the dog in all those situations so the dog is relaxed around new stuff.

Prey drive is different than aggression and fear aggression. Prey drive is chasing things dow to kill. Prey drive needs to be addressed and controlled b4 it is a problem (prevention is 9/10ths of the cure). Training can reduce and conttrol prey drive. That is what sheep herding is.. controlled prey drive (for instance).

What we humans do is tend to lump similar appearing beahaviors into one box and while the behavior LOOKS the same to people, it is usually differnent with different meanings to the dog.

I suggested these books before.. many of the responders here have read them but I suggest them again for the OP and anyone who stumbles on this thread....

"The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell Phd
"The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson

As to off leash or on leash.. my dog works off leash a great deal. Most of the time these days. It took a LOT of work and consistant training. She does not tear after things that run past her.. deer, squirrels, little kids, you name it... I need this sort of obedience for sheep herding. I rarely use a leash on this dog but she sits and waits and lies down and waits and obeys what ever cue she has been given until either given the release cue or another command. Those are MY requirements for MY dog.

Yeah.. I thought this was a thread about training too.. LOL

I won't get into the other stuff. People don't aways agree on things. Fact is, sometimes my best lessons have been learned bythose who do not agree with me (of course, this only happens after I am either whacked over the head or I have pointed out the other persons OTHER errors... )

 

I love your posts Elana. It is my border collie that has fear aggression, but it has lessened to such a degree that I seldom think of it. She is also very timid and submissive. In a way I wish that she wasn't so submissive in that sometimes you would think that she has been harmed, but submissive is just her way. she is even that way around other dogs, if she sees one she lies down. and when she was a puppy she would hear a dog bark or see a dog and want to go home. It was hard teaching her to go on walks with a leash, but she is better now. Still, when we walk past barking dogs she wants to walk faster.

Rags on the other hand had no fear.

I used the collar correction on Rags whenever he was aggressive towards dogs behind gates or out in the open. It worked as long as he was on a leash, and he was really good at ignoring them. He had a prey drive. He would not even hear you if you tried to stop him from chasing an animal.

Today Mocha wanted to chase a rabbit. I said No and she stopped. They were two different types of dogs, that is for sure.

Sorry about the misleading thread. We are at lest discussing off leash training now.

 

I used the collar correction on Rags whenever he was aggressive towards dogs behind gates or out in the open. It worked as long as he was on a leash, and he was really good at ignoring them. He had a prey drive. He would not even hear you if you tried to stop him from chasing an animal.

See, the problem with corrections is that the dog can misunderstand the corrections, attributing them to the target of his aggression, instead of understanding that the correction occured because of his aggression. Translation: corrections can make aggression worse.

I think his problems could have been corrected with the help of a qualified behaviorist. In the right family for him, he coule have become a very trustworthy pet. Unfortunately, he ended up in a home that didn't match with his personality, and he died because of it. It happens a lot....I don't know what really can be done about it. Almost all dogs in shelters are there because their personalities didn't match with the home they ended up in. There's a key for every lock....you just have to find it.

 

Heh I thought this thread was going to be people saying how dogs should never be off-leash, etc.

I was about to say - well I guess I'm an idiot because 80% of the time, Wally and I "have adventures" off leash. (Once we got lost, but that's for another story).

I don't think Wally is fear-aggressive. He is fearful (or, I guess I should say has fearful tendancies now because he's much better than he was) or maybe just was woefully under-socialized and isn't really "fearful" but is just very cautious of unknown stuff.

But what made me reply was Elana's post about correcting fear. I used to do that, being the stupid dog rookie I was (am?). What happened was a useless cycle for us both:

Me: Stop being scared. It's harmless.
Wally: But I'm scared!
Me: Stop it. Come here and touch it.
Wally: But I'm scared!
Me: Touch it!
Wally: But I'm scared!
Me: *moves Wally over and makes him touch it*
Me: Now. Touch it again.
Wally: *creeps up on it and touches it and runs back the minute I say it was a good touch*

Needless to say, that was going to go anywhere fast. So what I do now is either:

1) Direct him and make him focus on me and my directions
2) Ignore him and go about my business like I don't have a dog.

Obviously, I'm going to do #2 more often in the house although there are times where if we're walking and something "scary" is on the sidewalk, I just keep going. He's scared of whatever, but knows he BETTER be near me. So he gets up the nerve to come past it.

Mostly, though, I direct him and I act like he's not even worried about anything. I use my usual tone, my usual voice/click markers. I move at my usual pace and hold him to the usual rules of walking off-leash (i.e. you go past me without my permission, walk stops). Even if I KNOW why he's doing that (kids around are "too loud", some noises are concerning him, etc) rules are rules.

This seems to be helping him a lot. Now his "default behavior" is to come back to me and sit and stare at me when he's scared, and the number of things that truly frighten him or dropping by the week. Things that used to set him off in fear - just make him "mildly apprehensive" (tail drops, but not all the way down and he gets more alert).

I know none of this probably relates to you since I don't think Wally shares the aggressive trait (except in one baffling case I'll mention in another thread), but maybe it can be of some help to the TC or someone.

BTW all of this is off-leash. Stupid as it may have been, I told myself (and him) I'm not relying on a leash for control, he will control himself and I will control him by direction/presence, not just a strip of cloth. I do use the leash, if only to keep him used to it and when we go for our "migration walks" (especially since it's on a sidewalk by a major road).

 

We owned a Border Collie that we taught to go to each other. One day I got lost in the dark. My husband told her to go find me, and she did, and then I told her to go to him, and she helped me find my way home. We have to teach Mocha this one day.

I liked your dialogue with your dog.

See, the problem with corrections is that the dog can misunderstand the corrections, attributing them to the target of his aggression, instead of understanding that the correction occured because of his aggression. Translation: corrections can make aggression worse.

I think his problems could have been corrected with the help of a qualified behaviorist. In the right family for him, he coule have become a very trustworthy pet. Unfortunately, he ended up in a home that didn't match with his personality, and he died because of it. It happens a lot....I don't know what really can be done about it. Almost all dogs in shelters are there because their personalities didn't match with the home they ended up in. There's a key for every lock....you just have to find it.

I used the correction like I believe I saw Caesar using, and as long as he was on a leash he left the dogs alone when we walked. He ignored them.

I don't believe in keeping a dog on a leash outside or in the house all the time. We have a dog that Rags was becoming vicious towards, and it was getting worse. I didn't think much of it until two weeks ago. I remember thinking then that I wouldn't trust leaving them alone.

Leaving a chain on a dog outside when we are gone can make dogs worse.

I emailed Dr. Dodman with my story, after reading his article, and after the fact. He said that I had done the right thing, but to remember that some dogs can be fixed. But in big caps he wrote, BUT NOT ALL. He also said I had my hands full.

I thought about it and wondered if the other vets were wrong when they said he had to be put down. And then it dawned on me that I would not want to risk my other dogs life or my neighbor's kids during the process of trying to fix him, and that I would never really trust him again, and I would never know if I could trust him. That is when my mind cleared up in regards to whether I had done the right thing.

Plus, there are no behavorist dog trainers here.

He matched up very well in our home for over a year. When he killed another dog there is no longer a match. Not even Animal Rescue wanted him. He could not be given away. Animal Rescue has such a long list of dogs here that no one wants them, and they said it would be irresponible to give him away since he has killed a dog, and since our neighbor said that he looks at their toddlers as if they were prey, I didn't want to risk the chance. We have meter people coming into our yard. And he could dash out. Tying him up is not right. Animal Rescue here is trying to pass a law where dogs cannot be kept chained up.

So, it had nothing to do with matching up personalities. Rags was sweet with us.

 

My dogs are never off leash except in my fenced back yard. I know 2 of them would stay by my side if I were to let them loose, but I am not willing to risk it. And, I'd say my dogs have wonderful lives.

The OP makes it sound like it is impossible to keep a dog in a house or on a leash. My dogs have never gotten loose, or run out the door. I've taught them to stay when I open a door. It requires a little training, but based on the OP saying she's done "lots of training" that should have been a breeze.

 

I have Lola trained to not go out of the house on leash until I am outside first and then she is only allowed out when I say come on. After I trained her to do that I had trained her to do the reverse, meaning she can't come in until I am in first and only when I say come on.

I could have the door wide open and she will not run out even when she is off leash in the house. Someone could be coming in the door without me even opening the door to let them in and she will go to the door and as the person is coming in will back up.

I have her do the same when we are over someone else's house. I have also told her that when she starts paying the rent she can go out without me telling her to wait Of course that hasnt happened yet but still waiting for that day to come. I already know HE&& will freeze over first

 

Due to the issues Rags developed and your admittedly limited expertise handling those issues and the fact that Rags did kill another dog, you made your decision. Your dog, your decision.

As to the rest.. after reading everything you have written I believe that Rags was too much dog for you. Now this is not a put down.. but an observation. While this dog was sweet with you he had external issues that developed and escalated. In another, more experienced person's hands, he probably could have been fine (Note I said probaably, not assuredly).

Being "over dogged" is, I believe, what Willowy is referring to. This does not mean Rags did not love you and that you did not love him. It does not mean you did not do what you thought you should or could do to train him or eradicate undesirable behaviors. What it means is that you were lacking the dog training tools in your tool box to prevent the problems the first time they came up and to deal with them in a manner that would have allowed the dog to lead a happy and long life. There is no shame in not knowing what to do or how to do it.. we are not born knowing stuff.

We are not all behaviorists. I am not a behaviorist and I am not a professional dog trainer. I have knowledge and some experience but I defer issues beyond my ability to others. I do research and give things my best shot, but sometimes you do need a professional to step up and show you or to help out. This goes for everything in life.. from fixing dog porblems to fixing car problems (and no, I am not comapring dogs to cars.. just discussing any problem that is beyond our knowledge or ability to handle).

The trick in this is knowing WHEN to consult the professional.. When you (anyone, not you specifically) have crossed the threshold, or are about to, into an area where you need that professinal consult is not always clear. Sort of like crossing a line and you realize it a tad late and look back and say , "Hey.. WHAT line? I didn't see any line!!!"

Quite honestly, Rags MIGHT have been fine somone else's ownership IF they had recognized issues when they initialized and the issues were addressed through prevention of further issues and/or deflection of the behavior. HOWEVER, it might also be as likely (not ever having met this dog) that someone else could have been "over dogged" as well and needed a professional to step in.

In the case of this particular dog, things escalated until a tragedy occurred and the result of that tragedy was a dog that was PTS. Quite frankly, this happens quite often because the owner is not matched well with the dog. "Not matched well" can mean personalities, training issues, behavioral issues etc. and those issues with owners do result in many dogs being placed in shelters, rehomed etc. In your case the dog's personality was matched well, but his behavior characterisitics and your experience dealing with those behavior characteristics were not well matched. This is just an observation and not a put down at all. it was not that you did not try (you did). It was that you probably needed more tools (knowledge and skills) or professional help a few months b4 the tragedy occurred. If you cannot afford a professional or none are available, then it puts you in a difficult position.

I would take the experience you have had with Rags as a lesson learned and use it to recognize where you need to gain knowledge and understanding. Beating you up or you beating yourself up for what has happened will not help you or your current dog or your next dog. It will not help you gain the knowledge you need to gain.

 

I agree with everything you said Elana. And believe me I tried to get expert advice. It was really limited here to just vets and animal rescue. and animal rescue would not take him, and I could not put that responsibity in another's hands. So many dogs get put to sleep here that it is unbelieveable, and I didn't want to give him to animal control and have him in a bad environment before they put him to sleep. This areas is a hot bed for animal cruelty. I did the best with the advice that I could find. And my husband felt it had to be done. Once when I said that I wanted to try to cure him he said that he would take it out of my hands, because he didn't want a baby getting killed or another dog. He also didn't want to be sued. It wasn't an easy decision. If we had lived in a city maybe there would have been more options, but I don't know.

I didn't see things coming because he behaved good towards other dogs when on a leash. He didn't when he saw this small dog behind the fence, and I told my husband that he can't be out front when the dog is there. He thought our neighbor had returned him to his owner, and so was just taking him out to the car. But obviously he was not trained enough. He was too much to handle for me and my husband. Yes, I didn't see the line well enough. It had only been a week before that he attacted our dog, and everyone said, that is normal, my dog does that too. But I wasn't so sure.

Around here I didn't trust whose hands he would get into even if he found a home. but people here dump dogs all the time, and he was a dumped dog as a puppy. Around here people train pit bulls to fight. For dogs it is difficult. Even I saved a dog from the river that was in bad shape and got him a home at Animal Rescue who found him a home, and I wrote an article for the paper about it. The hardest thing when I moved here is seeing staving and beaten dogs.

Like you said I did the best with my knowledge of vets around me. I wish that I could have done more. And even though I wrote to Dr. Dodman after the fact, I wrote him as it was posted here, and I told him to be honest, if I was wrong in putting him down let me know, but he said that I wasn't. Here is another part of his article on predatotry aggressive that we also used to make the decision:

"There is no good treatment for predatory aggression. The manifestation of a high arousal level, a fixed focus on the prey subject, and difficulty distracting the dog, are all indicators of a poor prognosis. Dogs that are born with a high prey drive and have it fine-tuned by experience will always be likely to display this behavior under certain circumstances. They cannot help themselves. The behavior is neither malicious nor vindictive but simply biologically driven and natural – though unacceptable and downright dangerous when expressed toward humans. It is the responsibility of dog owners to appreciate tendencies in their dog. For example, a dog that screams with excitement when he sees a squirrel in the back yard through the window would be one to watch in the presence of a group of fast-running young children.

Electric shock collars have also been suggested but are not part of treatment programs we recommend.


Correcting dogs that prey on small animals are typically more difficult to correct than dogs that chase cars or bicycles.

The difficulty in treating predatory aggression is that it is hard-wired and driven by natural forces. Owners must understand that they are liable for any damage the dog causes if he gets loose. If the dog preys on people or small pets, the prognosis for retraining is guarded to poor."

 

Since you said He I can only assume you meant what corrections does Cesar do? Oh, I dunno, the "bite" with the fingers, constant jerking on the leash, hanging the dog in the air off the leash, alpha rolls and all sorts of flips and jabs. His little noise is even a correction. The problem with all those physical corrections was explained above by Willowy.

Why is it strange to be afraid of a Maltese biting? Many people think smaller dogs bite more, (in my experience, they do) because they're not trained as well as bigger dogs. A maltese bite can still be very bad, and scary.

I used to watch his show and I always thought it was cool how the dogs got better at the end, and I liked the ones where he went to Mexico to help rescue dogs. But when I actually got my dog I took the time to do my OWN research and learn many different ways to train and picked the one that would work for me and my dog. I gave Sadie a physical correction ONE time and she was terrified of me for the rest of the evening. I don't want my dog to work for me because she's scared, even if it "works".

 

Since you said He I can only assume you meant what corrections does Cesar do? Oh, I dunno, the "bite" with the fingers, constant jerking on the leash, hanging the dog in the air off the leash, alpha rolls and all sorts of flips and jabs. His little noise is even a correction. The problem with all those physical corrections was explained above by Willowy.

Wow - no wonder he draws a lot of ire/controversy. I couldn't imagine hanging a dog even just a little off the ground. Jerking the leash is bad enough and just flipping and jabbing a dog?

Why is it strange to be afraid of a Maltese biting? Many people think smaller dogs bite more, (in my experience, they do) because they're not trained as well as bigger dogs. A maltese bite can still be very bad, and scary.

Eh, I guess because it's such a small dog. I just don't imagine them being able to do a lot of damage - unlike say a Shepard or even a Lab/Golden - other medium to large sized dogs with more strength/power.

I guess I just can't picture being scared of a 4 to 7 lb dog trying to attack like he's a big dog.

I used to watch his show and I always thought it was cool how the dogs got better at the end, and I liked the ones where he went to Mexico to help rescue dogs. But when I actually got my dog I took the time to do my OWN research and learn many different ways to train and picked the one that would work for me and my dog. I gave Sadie a physical correction ONE time and she was terrified of me for the rest of the evening. I don't want my dog to work for me because she's scared, even if it "works".

Yeah, Wally is similar. The most physical I'll get with him is placing him in a position and even then I'm not doing that anymore as I learned how to use my body/eyes to communicate that I'm serious about that command I just gave if for some reason he refuses a known direction.

I agree - I don't want my dog to work out of fear either. That's no basis for a relationship, and it wouldn't be any fun if I had to scare him or threaten him every time before we can start training or something.

 

KBLover, no matter what size the dog is, bites that break the skin can get ugly:

WARNING, GRAPHIC PICTURES
http://janthedogtalker.blogspot.com/2007/11/dog-bite-three-years-later.html



Here's some more info. on Cesar:

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

 

KBLover, no matter what size the dog is, bites that break the skin can get ugly:

WARNING, GRAPHIC PICTURES
http://janthedogtalker.blogspot.com/2007/11/dog-bite-three-years-later.html

WHOA

Those are some scary photos - I stand corrected about small dog bites

Here's some more info. on Cesar:

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

Thanks for the info. I can see again why people would/do have problems with his methods.

I guess people think suppression is good enough, so he continues to thrive and be popular.

 

I used to be afraid of dogs, of all sizes. Mostly it was LOUD dogs. No matter the size, if they made noise it terrified me. A 4 lb dog that bit...SCARY. Dog bites are terrifying to many people - imagine how scary it would be if it's YOUR own dog and you can't get it to stop biting you! Little teeth can HURT too.