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Spray Bottle + Positive Reinforcement = hmmm?

1.7K views 11 replies 9 participants last post by  parus  
#1 ·
OK, so I have another long thread with back story, but I'll just skip it and present the basic problem.

My nearly 2 year old Lab has trouble settling and just resting, even after training, walks, fetch, etc. If people are sitting in the same room as him, he will usually try and climb on them relentlessly for play/attention. I'm soon moving with him from a larger house to an apartment and want to recommit to breaking this behavior. Me ignoring him hasn't helped. Taking a handful of hot dogs and putting him into a long down works, but only with the treats.

OK, so here's what did work.

Last weekend I was out of town and my Dad stayed at my house to look after Argo. His solution to the problem was to get a spray bottle. He didn't spray him at all, but Argo seeing the bottle immediately changed his behavior (he must have been sprayed before I got him). For a while he avoided my Dad completely, but after some coaxing he came and rested on the couch next to him. The next day he slept on the floor nearby. He almost never climbed on my Dad and waited for my Dad to show him it was time to play, and he never had to show Argo the bottle again.

Now, I know this method is incorrect and dangerous because Argo was only behaving because he was scared of the consequences. I have no intention of just using a bottle to break his bad habits, since I've read enough to know it isn't a good long-term solution.

But, would it make sense to combine the bottle with positive reinforcement? To be clear, I would never actually spray him, but right now the bottle's presence is apparently enough to get him to alter his behavior. When I need time to myself with him not climbing on me, could I put the bottle near me in his view and then reward him with treats and praise when he chooses to settle on the floor or couch next to me? The end goal would obviously be the phase out the bottle entirely.

Do you guys think that approach would be effective? I don't want to scare him into behaving, but I've also had a very hard time breaking through with positive reinforcement alone.

Thoughts?
 
#2 ·
The spray bottle is a threat. Pure and simple. You would be using fear to force behavior and that's never a good idea.

I think the problem you're having can be dealt with in several ways. A.) More exercise. Get that energy out! Play fetch, play with a flirt pole, go for a walk. Training is exercise, too, so train some tricks like play dead or touch or spinning, it doesn't matter, just engage his brain. B.) Look up "kikopup it's yer choice" on youtube. It's an impulse control exercise that will help. C.)You can train calmness. It's as simple as never rewarding jumping up, crawling over people, etc. and regularly rewarding being calm. If you see the dog sit or lay of his own accord, treat. If he stops jumping or whatever, treat. D.) Get him a nice bed, put it in the living room and train "go to mat". kikopup has a video for this, too. He gets to be around people, but in a way that you like. In the beginning, you will likely have to remove him from people altogether if he gets out of control, but that's okay. If he sits on the bed for a little while, he gets rewarded for that, once he starts being obnoxious, he goes away. He wont' take long to figure it out.
 
#3 ·
As you note, Argo had to have been sprayed before you got him for him to associate the sight of the bottle with a consequence. An ordinary object doesn't really mean anything to a dog until the dog has been conditioned to connect the object with either a positive experience or a negative experience. Like, a bowl on its own is nothing but once you start feeding the dog from a bowl, the bowl becomes something exciting and good to the dog when he sees it.

When your dad brought the bottle out, Argo didn't immediately know he was supposed to relax and chill out and not jump on your dad or bother him. What he knew was to avoid the person handling the bottle. The need to coax him to come rest on the couch next to your dad shows that there is a pretty strong negative connection with the spray bottle that your dad had to overcome (since Argo's actions were so out of character for a dog that normally wants a ton of interaction).

So if you bring the bottle out and then try to reward him for settling on the couch, all you'd be doing is holding up both "carrot" and "stick" while expecting Argo's desire for treats to be strong enough to counter his apprehension of the bottle. Mixed messages for sure. Plus, as unless you are specifically counter-conditioning his response to the bottle, the bottle continues to be a "threat" in his mind that he cannot be sure of whether you will use it or not.

Since putting him in a long-down with treats works, continue with that. Long lasting chews reinforced randomly with a bite of hot dog or cheese, then fade the extra treat so the dog just has a chew. It's like giving a kid a coloring book to entertain them while the adults visit; you don't expect a toddler to hang around doing nothing so you give them something safe and entertaining because otherwise, they will make their own entertainment (by bothering you or destroying something generally....)
 
#4 ·
Ya, that was my thought and why I was initially annoyed that my Dad used the bottle.

As for your suggestions:

A) He gets tons of exercise. He gets walked most days, but always gets 45-90 minutes of fetch. Last night he had 2 hours and was still ready to go.

B) He's actually quite good with impulse control games. I can hold treats inches from his nose without him taking it until I say OK.

C) This is the biggest issue. I almost never reward or give attention, but I'll need to figure out how to make it more effective.

This is the only bad habit he has and it's driving me nuts. Just trying to figure out a plan for moving to the smalle rspace.
 
#5 ·
Basically, dog's don't do something unless it works. He is getting something out of climbing on people. Maybe you relent and pet him a little, maybe you throw a ball once in a while just to get him out of your face for a minute. He doesn't do it because it gets him nothing.

Personally, presuming he's getting enough exercise, I would approach it by teaching both an 'off' command and a 'go to mat' (or bed, settle, whatever) command. You need to teach him what you want him to do. If you want him to settle on his bed instead of on top of you, you need to teach him that that is more rewarding.
 
#6 ·
Thanks, good responses.

He's very good about leaving people alone when he has something to do (ie. kong, bully stick, bone, etc.), but once that runs out his mind immediately wanders to "climb & play" with humans near by. Example, last night we played fetch for 2 hours while I cleaned the house. Afterwards I gave him a Kong while I sat with him and watched TV. After the Kong was finished it took maybe 5 minutes before he was climbing on me. I ignored him while he climbed, despite the fact that he was shoving his snout/teeth into my face. He voluntarily got off me once or twice before returning. Eventually I moved upstairs and locked him out of the room I was in.

I think I could do a better job of treating/praising in those moments where he gets off me on his own.

Otherwise, I almost never reward him in any way when he climbs. But I think he just has no idea what to do unless he is given something specific to do. Like I said, if I bring a fist full of cut up hot dogs he will sit at my feet for longer periods (30 minutes+) staring up and waiting for the treats. He'll try to climb if I am too slow, but an "uh, uh" from me and he lies back down. It's just in moments with nothing specific to do that he always resorts to climbing on me.

He had a bed but destroyed it about 2 months ago. I am going to buy a new one when we move in a month and work on reinforcing it as his area. I'll probably also try and get 1-2 toys that only come out when I get home, so hopefully they keep his interest more in the evenings. And I think I'll carry a small bag of treats everywhere, and any time he sits/lies near me (but not on) I'll treat, and when he voluntarily climbs off me. I hope that will help make some progress.

In so many ways he's turned out to be a great boy, but this one issue has been incredibly frustrating for months :(
 
#8 ·
Afterwards I gave him a Kong while I sat with him and watched TV. After the Kong was finished it took maybe 5 minutes before he was climbing on me. I ignored him while he climbed, despite the fact that he was shoving his snout/teeth into my face.
Ignoring works for some things, but when the unwanted behavior involves YOU, 'ignoring' while continuing to let him climb and get in your face is probably not the best method if you wish to resolve this. Stand up, don't go anywhere, THEN ignore and keep watching TV as if the dog doesn't exist. At least that way you'll prevent the dog from self-reinforcing.

Like I said, if I bring a fist full of cut up hot dogs he will sit at my feet for longer periods (30 minutes+) staring up and waiting for the treats.
The key here, I believe, is to not allow the dog to realize that rewards are available *now*. You need to create the illusion that treats are potentially available at ALL times. Just for example, don't "bring" a fistful with you, instead keep / stash treats in covered dishes and on higher levels around the environment for random, spontaneous reinforcement.
 
#7 ·
But I think he just has no idea what to do unless he is given something specific to do.
One way to teach a dog to figure out what he should be doing is work on training by shaping and clicker training. It teaches a dog to problem solve and think for himself. It is also a good mental workout.

This is going to sound counter intuitive, but in some ways, he may be getting too much exercise. Particularly the time of leashed exercise or other focused exercise vs fetch. Some dogs get into a mindless zone while playing fetch where they will run back and forth until their body runs out of energy but because they'd turned off their brain while engaging the repetitive action, they aren't really any calmer or more settled once the games are over.
Structured leash walks where the dog can enjoy some sniffing around but also is expected to pay attention to his handler, maybe to spend part of the walk in a heel position, maybe to stop and sit at corners etc, all engages the dogs brain differently and can help build focus.

Ending each game of fetch with a few minutes of basic obedience can help a dog to calm down before coming indoors.

Rally is a training activity (and competition activity) which doesn't need any equipment other than something to mark locations on the ground (can be as simple as cardboard indoors or water bottles outdoors) which can build cooperation and focus and tire the dog's mind out.
 
#9 ·
Although I agree with everyone's general suggestions, I'm going to suggest a contradiction in this specific instance. The spraybottle is a trigger that means avoid the person. I think you can transfer the meaning to be avoid the behavior, by attempting what you suggested:

1. Situation when the dog wants to climb on someone.
2A. You say, "Off." The dog stops, you praise and treat.
2B. Instead, if the dog does NOT stop, you show him the spraybottle, he cringes, you praise and treat.

Eventually, the dog will stop without the spraybottle, and he will learn [quickly] that "Off" means treat! But, the spraybottle is a mild reminder in the beginning.

For a timid, fearful dog, I wouldn't recommend this ... but I can't believe that your dog is 'timid'. Also, Labs tend to forgive and recover from poor treatment fairly quickly. In addition, many Labs think that it's great fun to be spray 'attacked' with a garden hose, a watergun, or a spraybottle. I used to throw handsful of water at my dog and he tried to catch them like a ball :) ... So, I believe your dog's previous owner might have yelled and sprayed ... b/c water, even in the face, is not a bad thing to a Lab .... My two cents :)
 
#10 ·
Impulse control doesn't just mean treats. Can he sit and stay while balls are being thrown? Can he control himself around food, people, etc?

Hank is very relentless over the top about a lot of things. I haven't had him too long but I think you could throw toys 24/7 for him. He's also very pushy for affection and will shove or bite to try to get it. Or just run and jump as hard into your lap as possible then shove himself on you.

We've had a lot of success in just a few days but it is me being very very consistent. I mean... all of my time right now is going to exercising him and then just spending down time with him. But all down time is teaching the rules. I HAVE corrected him by letting him hit the end of his leash and using verbals. He is very bitey and chasey with the other dogs. That is something that just couldn't go. But on the other side, if Hank does something RIGHT I let him know and praise him for this. If Hank comes crashing in to me and being obnoxious, I stand up and move. It is quite literally constant feedback to him. He is learning very fast.

For the time being, no furniture for Hank. That's an escape place for me and the other dogs. Hank is learning that he needs to curl up and go to sleep or go play by himself. We have also banished all play to outside right now. Outside = time to play and be wild. Inside = time to relax and be calm.

So basically if he were my dog I'd be first adding in training instead of just throwing a ball for 90 minutes. Maybe do 30 minutes of ball play but also add in sits, stays, and other work while playing. If he loves the ball that much it will be an easy thing to do. Then make more of the rest of your time working on calming down. I would tether him while he's indoors. Maybe even crate him some of the time.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I use a spray bottle occasionally. It's my last resort when Watson is getting over the top and really needs to stop. I've used it when he's rush the rabbits - they are on the other side of an xpen, but it's still not safe for him to rush right up to the fence.

I don't have a problem with it if it's used only occasionally and when really needed. When behavior is self-reinforcing, it can be hard to break and sometimes a quick punishment and then done is more effective than drawn out +R exercises. However, you need to lay the +R foundation or the dog isn't going to know what you want anyway. I like petpeeve's advice for ignoring, and for teaching him that treats are always available and his behavior can make them appear.
 
#12 ·
I've used a squirt gun on my now-elderly beast. It worked as an interrupter. This dog is the single least sensitive dog on the planet, though, so even a nuclear missile would probably only count as a "mild adversive" for her. Sounds like your dog has less concrete between its ears than mine, so I wouldn't use it at all on your dog.