The reason why a lot of people would recommend the "hippy positive-only/treat training" is because it works (if done consistently). Other forms of training are more likely to produce worse, unwanted behaviors in the long run (even if they seem to work in the short-run). Negative reenforcement simply teaches the dog to not do specific behavior when you're around, because then bad things happen. It doesn't teach the dog to stop the behavior altogether.

The couch sitting, for example--your dog isn't acting stubborn. He does not understand that he's never supposed to sit on the couch. He only knows that he's not supposed to sit on the couch when you're around. Admittedly, it's difficult to teach a dog to stay off furniture at all times (regardless of what training method you use). However, if you make being on the ground more rewarding than being on the couch, he'll eventually learn to stay off even if you aren't there. Is your dog fond of toys? Perhaps you could find a way to tie his favorite toy to a spot such that he has some room to move them, but he can't move them up to the couch. I'm sure others have suggestions as to training techniques that have worked for them.

One step in teaching is to get him to stop practicing the behavior--literally. Make it such that he can't get on the couch. You can either gate off the couch, or gate off the dog away from the couch. Maybe limit the dog to another room. The dog can't sit on the couch if he can't get to the couch.

I don't know much about dog aggression, but I can recommend a book on barking: Barking: The Sound of Language by Turid Rugaas. Your dog is trying to tell you something. If you understand what that is, you can work to curb some of the barking. The best prevention for barking, however, is limiting your dog's view of other dogs or people passing by. Some dogs will bark because of sound, but limiting sight should help somewhat.

Can't tell you much about the genital licking. If your vet prescribed an anti-depressent, it sounds like your vet thought your dog had an obsessive compulsive disorder. A dog behaviorist might help with those issues without the use of medication, but it will be difficult to simply train it out of your dog without special help if your dog really does have OCD.

 

We've run out of ideas on how to train him out of these things, so maybe you guys can give us some new ideas (I'm not a fan of the hippy positive-only/treat training)

I don't know why people expect a dog to learn simply by yelling at it. As if somehow the dog has an obligation to follow the human's commands. If you want a dog to listen, you need to give it something in return. This is especially true for shelties. A sheltie does not respond well at all to punishment. They require a gentle hand when training. They are very put off by frustration as well. And I do hope you've never struck him. If so then odds are he does not have much trust in you anymore.

1) The genital licking is weird and does indeed sound like an OCD unique to your dog. The vet gave you medication and it worked so clearly something's not right. I think you may need a professional trainer to help you with this one.

2) The barking and growling at other dogs is fairly common in shelties. We used to live in an apartment complex when our sheltie was younger. Anytime someone would walk by the door, especially with a dog, he would go nuts barking his head off. And if we took him outside for a walk, he was perfectly normal around people and dogs. What we did was started using the cue "Enough!" when he would bark. So someone walks past the door with their dog, he goes off barking, we respond with "Isaac! Enough!" once we have his attention we praise and treat. Do not yell angrily at him though, you just want his attention.

3) He does not know he's not allowed on the couch. He just knows you will yell at him and get angry when you're around. You need to teach him "off" for when you're around. The problem is he's already afraid to do it when you're around so it will be harder to teach. If it's that much of a problem when you're gone, then crate him.

 

I strongly disagree with the positive-only/treat training approach, but I only mentioned that to highlight the form of training I do not want to use to snap him out of this. And for the record I use pack training, which isn't necessarily a "negative" approach.

There is also some more information I should add about how we know the dog knows the couch and bed is bad, and that is his behavior after doing it. We walk in the front door the same way every single time. The days he did not go on the couch, he wags his tail and greets us. The days he was on the couch, he hangs his head low and walks in circles in front of the couch. I can train him all I want that the couch is bad and floor is good, but I know he goes up there for comfort and nothing on the floor is going to match that.

He actually can never see any of the dogs walking by, but the dog tags jingling gets him going.

And I'm sure this is going to drive some people nuts here, but the days I put a shock-collar on, he's perfect and I never use it. Never barks, growls, licks, or jumps on furniture. Because of that I know he is smart enough to be good only in-the-moment for treats if we tried that.


edit (just saw HerdersfForMe's post):

-I learned later that Shelties were bred to bark, and if it's common I guess we'll just have to deal with it (but carefully, because we do not want the malamute to learn that).

-Hopefully someone else has dealt with the licking, if not, I guess he's special and we'll have to deal with it or find cheaper pills.

So it looks like it's just the furniture issue that can be worked out (HerdersfForMe you should read the above paragraphs about his guilt of jumping on the furniture)

 

I strongly disagree with the positive-only/treat training approach, but I only mentioned that to highlight the form of training I do not want to use to snap him out of this. And for the record I use pack training, which isn't necessarily a "negative" approach.

I've never heard of that method of training. Could you describe it?

 

Pretty much the dogs do tricks and are obedient not to get treats, but because they are part of the pack and are required to listen. Disciplining the dogs isn't screaming and hitting, it's grabbing their hackles and pushing them to the ground, all while saying "bad dog" in a very controlled way. It's the exact same way dogs handle each other in the wild, except they grab hackles with teeth and draw blood.

There is no such thing as a "wild dog" in the sense of a domesticated dog living in the wild (and all dogs we think of as pets are domesticated through their evolution, making them completely different than "wild" animals). Anything named "wild dog" really isn't a domesticated dog or even close (i.e., the African wild dog). Since the African Wild Dog and the domesticated dog are two different species, you really can't take much about one behavior and attribute it to another. If you mean wolves, you should check out the latest studies in wild wolf behavior. Try the book Dog Sense by John Bradshaw. It explains the most recent studies in wolf vs. dog behavior in the context of training.

The first result: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bt7W-j7yDs

I can name off numerous times I've seen this as well, where one dog was acting misbehaved and another bit (or in most cases puts their mouth around and tackles) another dog. Dogs are socially skilled, they just don't discuss their issues over a cup of tea.

That is a LOT different than a human grabbing a dog by his hackles and pushing him to the ground. I'm not even sure they aren't playing. A bit of a puppy tumble over a toy. If you see an adult dog grabbing a puppy by the hackles and pushing it down to the ground, drawing blood, you are looking at a very unsocialized, damaged adult dog. Dogs get into tiny disagreements--even well-socialized, happy ones. Usually its over toys or one dog is annoying the other, etc. But that's not dominance. That's two dogs having a disagreement. The dog that "wins" is generally the one that is being annoyed, or the one that values the toy/treat/etc. more than the other. If the dogs are well-socialized, the encounter should be very brief (a second or less) and one will back off. It's just a warning; no injuries; no prolonged barking or growling and no aggressiveness. Such is not the case with a human pushing a dog down and yelling at the dog. That is aggressiveness. It doesn't teach anything to the dog except that the dog should be scared of the human.

 

I'm so confused here. The dogs are obedient, happy, travel with us everywhere, can walk without leashes, not caged, one is a therapy dog, both are perfect with children, not food aggressive, tricks on command, healthy, and we get compliments from other dog owners all the time. They have toys everywhere, good food, their own beds, run next to our bikes, and have never run away.

No one here has any right to say how I trained the dogs is incorrect. This shouldn't even be a point of discussion.

Here's what this is about:

-He has OCD, I have to look into medication again
-He's a Sheltie, so he barks
-He jumps on furniture

So the only issue I have with the 2 dogs I've trained this way is that one of them jumps on furniture. That's the only thing I need help with.

That is a LOT different than a human grabbing a dog by his hackles and pushing him to the ground. Also, those dogs aren't wild and, honestly, I'm not even sure they aren't playing. A bit of a puppy tumble over a toy. If you see an adult dog grabbing a puppy by the hackles and pushing it down to the ground, drawing blood, you are looking at a very unsocilaized, damaged adult dog. Dogs get into scuffles--even well-socialized, happy ones. Usually its over toys or one dog is annoying the other, etc. But that's not dominance. That's two dogs having a disagreement. The dog that "wins" is generally the one that is being annoyed, or the one that values the toy/treat/etc. more than the other. If the dogs are well-socialized, the encounter should be very brief (a second or less) and one will back off. It's just a warning; no injuries; no prolonged barking or growling and no aggressiveness. Such is not the case with a human pushing a dog down and yelling at the dog. That is aggressiveness. It doesn't teach anything to the dog except that the dog should be scared of the human.

There is no difference between a dog and human doing it. If it actually teaches them to be scared of me then I would expect them to be scared of me, which they are not. Instead they respect me. I think you are just going to disagree with anything I have to say.

 

I think you'd benefit to take a look at www.dogstardaily.com. Specifically this article: http://dogstardaily.com/training/food-critics and this one: http://dogstardaily.com/training/alpha-fallacy

You have a lot of misconceptions about food and positive reinforcement training that are preventing you from trying something that may help solve your dog's behavior problems.

I used positive reinforcement to train my reactive dog not to cry, bark, and lunge at other passing dogs. Slight leash corrections and negative punishment weren't working. A few weeks of utilizing treats in my training led to my dog being able to walk by other dogs, off leash, in the heel position without one reminder.

I'd also recommend you look into reading up on ACTUAL dog behaviorism and cognition... Not "wolf pack theory". It's an outdated and disproven theory that was actually corrected by its original author, who came out and said he made a mistake. Your way of training might have worked for you... up until now. It's not working--try something different.

Also, if he's perfect when you put his shock-collar on and not when it's off, you used the collar incorrectly. The dog should not associate the training with the collar and the collar should only need to be used for a short period of time. If you still need the collar to get the dog to comply with your rules, you did not train with the collar correctly.

 

The pack theory/dominence method isn't ineffective in all cases... it just can produce unwanted side effects and can harm the relationship between the human and the dog.

You listed a bunch of behaviors that you can't seem to train out of one of your dogs. It just may be possible that your training method isn't working for this dog and, hence, your training method may be wrong for this dog. Indeed, the couch sitting when you aren't around and the dog aggression are two types of behaviors that are far more easily managed using positive reenforcement rather than pack theory/negative reenforcement.

 

I'll try some of those techniques for just the barking and furniture issue, but I will not change how I train my good dogs!

Thanks for your time.

 

The pack/dominance theory was originally put forth after studying wolves, and as others have said, it has been proven to be erroneous. Even if it DID have any validity, it would not transfer over to dogs, because, also, as others have said, dogs are not wild. Dogs have been domesticated for so long that any traces of behaviors that were similar to wild wolves disappeared long, long ago.

I will say, you holding your dog down is not the same as another dog correcting it. Most dogs flop down on their OWN to show submission. They aren't forced down, except usually in rough play, or if a dog is damaged, or has issues. Plus, doing things that dogs do to correct dogs, or teach dogs doesn't always hold water. As Dr. Patricia McConnell says in "The Other End of the Leash", our dogs know that WE are not dogs, and they don't learn from us the same as they learn from other dogs.

I'm glad you were open minded enough to say you just might try a few of the suggestions for the problems you're having. But, maybe you'll be open minded enough to give this some thought: your dogs may seem to have not been harmed from your training methods, and maybe that's true. As a teacher, I know some even some harsh treatment can be accepted by kids once they've developed a thick enough skin. And, they can probably learn a bit from it. But, it doesn't mean that that's the right/best/most humane way to deal with them.

 

And there is no such thing as positive only training. It does not work that way.

 

but I will not change how I train my good dogs!

And this is exactly why you will not make any progress.

Training dogs involves keeping MANY tools in your proverbial tool box, and using them effectively on each dog. No two dogs will respond to training the same way....even if you use the same type of training.

I very much use clickers and food to train my service dogs. It is extremely important to mark and reward working behaviors. While a general drive to work is most definitely necessary, the learning process is much faster with a clear marker and a reward beyond praise.

 

^^^^^^This. Great story to illustrate a point. +++

 

+1 for sassafras.

Your dog would not 'look guilty' if he was not scared of you in some way. He has come to associate you coming home with him getting thrown on the ground and yelled at. You seem like you are interested in dog training and care about your dogs, so you should know that your dog has no clue what he did wrong when you "correct" him for being on the couch, especially since you were not there to actually see him.

There are lots and lots of things you can do to train your dog not to be on the couch. But, they involve positive reinforcement. Please read about the 4 quadrants and understand the difference between punishment and reinforcement.

In order to have your dog not jump on the couch, you have to make it unappealing but most of all, you have to make an acceptable place for him more appealing. Get a nice comfy, soft, warm dog bed. Fill it with his favorite toys. Every time he goes to it, give him lots of praise and a treat. Act like he did the best thing in the whole world when he stays in the bed. You can also work on teaching him the 'place' command. Take all blankets/pillows off the couch and teach him the off command. If he does try to get up, try just giving him the off command and showing him his place.

I know you have your own feelings about this, but how about trying it for 2 weeks and seeing if there is any difference? It won't hurt your dog, it won't ruin any of his other training and it really isn't any more work than what your doing currently.

If it doesn't work, then gate off the room with the couch. Restrict access so he has no opportunity to get on the couch.

 

I'm new to this forum, but not at all new to dog training (the "hippie" positive reinforcement kind) having worked with shelter dogs for 8 years, and I've just completed my undergraduate degree in behavioral psychology. I saw this thread and felt the need to add my thoughts.

Unfortunately, I think the original poster, Skyer2000 was looking for advice only along the lines of his/her chosen training method, which is not the currently accepted method of the training/veterinary community - positive reinforcement training is. For some reasons why, I cite this article, which summarizes an empirical, scientific study, originally published in Applied Animal Behavior Science:

"If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090217141540.htm

Unless you have damaged your relationship with your pet beyond repair, you dog WANTS to listen to you, so if it seems that he/she isn't, it's time to speak a new language, not blame it on the dog. Which is why I really think the original poster needs to be open to new training methods, at the very least for this problem, as their own method seems to be failing them

The quickest way to come to an impasse with your pet is to label their misbehavior/lack of "training" response by anthropomorphizing and imparting on them negative "personality" traits - they're "stubborn", "dominant", "alpha" - instead of recognizing the flaws in your own training and communication with the dog and trying another approach so that they may actually understand what you want.

You give your husband unclear directions to the mall. He doesn't find his way there. Is he "stubborn"? Or "alpha"? Do you then grab him by the back of the neck, shove him to the ground and tell him how bad he's been? So that the next time you give him unclear instructions, he should be in a panic over what will happen if he doesn't follow them? I think what people on this forum are asking you to do is really THINK about how your training is effecting your pets. Just because the animals can't speak back to you, in the way that your husband could, this isn't the time to avoid introspection.

I like it much better that when my dog is doing something I don't want, I call her away and she comes bounding to me, knowing that I'm always more exciting because I'll give her treats or cuddles when she gets to me, instead of slinking over to me, knowing that she'll be flipped over and yelled at if she doesn't.