I'd work on training her to be used to the crate since it's so valuable even past house training time.

Constant supervision. Maybe potty pads would be good in this situation.

 

Uhm maybe I didn't make myself clear...my neighbor is right next door...he calls the cops if my dogs bark at all...

With the new policies where I live, I could lose my house over her incessant barking...so let's just avoid the crate issue, ok.

 

Could you desenitise her from being penned up? How bout a room thatcan't be torn up (Kitchen with everything picked up, bathroom, ectra.

 

I have an open floor plan for the kitchen, it's combined with a dining room and there's no way to gate it off (island in the center) she attempted to destroy my bathroom door last time I tried keeping her seperated, I think she thinks it's too far from everyone else, not only that but there was a river of yellow to clean up after less than an hour stay in there...gross! LOL (she had to stay there while maintenance was working on the house, they no longer allow people to leave their dogs out while they work)

I'm going to "try" putting the crate in my bedroom and only using it at night (that's when we have the most accidents) but I'm not sure how well that's going to go over. Unfortunately if she won't stop barking I'll have to let her out...the last couple of times the MP's have been decent about it but did inform me they'd report it to my housing office if they get called again, which could very well mean I could lose my house over it. That's why I'm looking for an alternative to crating so if all else fails I have a backup plan.

I can't even remember the last dog that got potty trained at my house without a crate. I really like using them, but obviously they aren't for her because she freaks out.

 

Aurora's a bit of a different story, but Banjo hated crates, as well and we have now housetrained her, with hardly any crate usage.
Mainly what we did is notice patterns of where and when and what the situations were when she would have accidents, and then eliminate the possibility of that situation. For instance, at night, neither of them went to the bathroom when confined to our room while we slept, so we were able to keep them in that room all night. I don't know what your dogs situations and patterns are, but see if you can notice them.
Basically, the gist of it is, some rooms they would be willing to go in, and others they weren't. They NEVER went in our bedroom, except the first couple of mornings when we didn't get up fast enough and they weren't able to hold it. But anytime we left the bathroom door open, even if I was on the other side of the room next to it, they would go in when I wasn't looking and take a dump. So we realized, bathroom needs to be cut off, bedroom is okay...
So try to observe any patterns and see if you can cut off areas and/or situations.

 

Well, I take a proactive approach rather than a reactive approach, because I don't like cleaning up "accidents," therefore, I prevent them from happening in the first place. I've housetrained many a dog over the years without the use of a crate, although after I discovered how marvelous crates are (for me AND the dog), I'd never go back to training without one.

First, you must be consistent, persistent (and above all, patient) with your dog. Here are my suggestions:

Food and Water: Keep your dog on a feeding schedule (stick to it), and, since she does a lot of peeing at night, take her water away after 7:00 pm. Keep track of when she's fed, and when she eliminates by jotting it down in a notebook. You will learn how long after food goes in that it goes out!

Take her out after a nap, after play, after eating.

Tether her to you for periods of time when you're at home, so you will be able to tell when she's got to go by her body language. PRAISE her when she does go outside.

I'm going to "try" putting the crate in my bedroom and only using it at night (that's when we have the most accidents) but I'm not sure how well that's going to go over. Unfortunately if she won't stop barking I'll have to let her out...the last couple of times the MP's have been decent about it but did inform me they'd report it to my housing office if they get called again, which could very well mean I could lose my house over it. That's why I'm looking for an alternative to crating so if all else fails I have a backup plan.

Keep the crate right next to your bed, so you can put your hand/fingers in the crate to let her know you're right there. Also, by removing her water by 7:00pm, she's less likely to have to pee during the night.

I've had many a rescue I've fostered who "hated" the crate, but, not one who did not learn to at least tolerate it well, if not like it. If you establish a daily routine with your dog, and provide structure, which includes brief periods of time spent in the crate, she will come to accept the crate, and may well like it enough to go in on her own.

 

I was going to say what Poodleholic said. At night, if you find she is noisey in the crate even with you right there, you can take a rope and put a snap on it and tie her up right there next to you with her bed. The rope needs to be long enough for her to get up and turn around and lie down again, but not so long that she can get far enough away from the bed to pee.

You might also try setting your alarm to get up in the middle of the night ONCE to let her out to pee.

I too would never go back to the "old way" of a dog uncrated, but you have a miserable circumstance with an intolerant neighbor. Your dog is in your house... and unless the two houses have a common wall, the barking INDOORS (unless incessant at hours when they are sleeping) should not be an issue.. but this is just me ranting. You are in a miserable situation with the rules on the base. Too bad you can't re-home your neighbor.... (maybe here is the time I would support taking them on a drive out in the country and turning them loose in the wilderness because it is obvious to me a neighbor this unhappy needs to be set free.... ) I am sooo BAD!

 

I too would never go back to the "old way" of a dog uncrated, but you have a miserable circumstance with an intolerant neighbor. Your dog is in your house... and unless the two houses have a common wall, the barking INDOORS (unless incessant at hours when they are sleeping) should not be an issue.. but this is just me ranting. You are in a miserable situation with the rules on the base. Too bad you can't re-home your neighbor.... (maybe here is the time I would support taking them on a drive out in the country and turning them loose in the wilderness because it is obvious to me a neighbor this unhappy needs to be set free.... ) I am sooo BAD!

LOL thanks Elana! Yes I do have a miserable neighbor. Oddly enough, the neighbor I share the wall with doesn't mind it at all and ignores it (she has 2 small chihuahua's though and they are yappy) but the one that is across my yard hates dogs, hates me...hates the world I guess. Not that these walls are thick either though, I can hear my piano being played outside so I imagine barking would be the same.

These are at hours when his wife is sleeping...he came over to complain at me at 3 PM cause his wife "was trying to sleep" - she does not work however. So I don't care if she's trying to sleep in the middle of the day. He sleeps at night ,she sleeps all day...he's the only one that works. So it doesn't matter what I do, I'm not right, we're always "disturbing" one of them. **sigh**

I'm going to try with the crate next to my bed tonight. I think Lily is also part of the problem because I got up at 4 this morning to let them out, and she pooed on the floor coming back in...she hasn't had accidents in months, I guess she needs a refresher course.

 

I think I would also tether the dog to me so she cannot sneak off and go to the bathroom in the house. If you starts to go you are right there to immediately take her outside.

 

Ugg, sounds like the new girl is upsetting the housetraining a little bit I'm sure you are, but I guess it's worth mentioning making sure you clean any accidents thoroughly and with enzyme cleaners...or they will come back to that spot. I housetrained mine without a crate...with just very structured eating and structured potty times. But, mine are gated in one room when I'm gone. Have you tried gating her in a room, without closing the door...but just using a tall baby gate?

 

Neither of my dogs are crate trained. Both of them had to learn to go potty outside, they have their own little dog pen area with access to a doggy door. For my pug mix, he was a pain, i used training pads, he didnt really get the hang of letting us know that he had to go potty until a few months ago. My lab is a female and she was really good, she used pads and it didnt take too long befor she knew that she had to go out back or go stand or sit by the front door to let us know she has to go potty. Now my pug scratches at the front door when he has to go potty, he learned that from my lab, he would hear me tell her that she was a good girl when she did that and went out to go potty, soon after he did the same thing. Also just watch for the signs. With my pug i couldnt really tell, sometimes he would go sniff the curtains or the couch. With my lab i could tell she would mostly go in the hallway and sniff around and just walk around.
My dogs did poop n pee in their dog room for awhile, they finally learned not to do that anymore thank goodness.

 

I'm going to suggest in addition to what Poodleholic put down that you invest in Susan Garrett's DVD "Crate Games." Your dog CAN learn to LOVE her crate: http://www.clickerdogs.com

 

Thanks, that was my point. You can still crate train the dog.

 

The insanity insues...

Lily decided the house is her personal toilet now...she does it in front of us and gets shoved out the door with a loud "AHH".

We tried putting the crate in our bedroom last night...epic fail. Between Lily acting the fool because it was "her" crate so she whined all night long, then the barking starting up at 4 AM (after just stopping at midnight) I'm really sleep deprived this morning. Lacey had an accident in the crate, which was my fault...the 4 AM barking wasn't "let me out of the crate" it was "I gotta GOOOOO let me OUUUUUTTTTT"...lesson learned.

 

That's where the problem came up. She has no problem laying in there with the door open, but as soon as it's closed...that's when all heck breaks loose. Even for 5 minutes. I put up with about 4 hours of whining and crying and barking and all that last night/this morning. My neighbor came over to complain at me this morning about it. At least this time he didn't call the cops.

I wanted to make sure I was perfectly clear that I have an @$$hat neighbor and I can lose my house over this if she doesn't ever mellow out about it...really doesn't matter what time of day it is either.

I came looking on advice how to potty train the dog without the crate, since it causes stress on all sides...not to get a snarky answer that it's the only way to do it.

 

Do you feed her in the crate? Give her treats in there?

 

I do wish you luck, and would hate to be in your position with that neighbor. I don't think anyone, including myself, has been snarky at all on this thread.

We're offering what we can, and with out having been there through all of your training and attempts, all we can go on is what you provide Therefore, you're going to get a wide range of answers, and they may not all be what you're looking for. So in those cases that turn out to be what you're not looking for, leave em alone and take what you can work with for suggestions.

 

get something like those smell sprays or noise things that go off when she barks and see if that will stop her?

 

I housetrained Scarlett without a crate because she had learned at some point in her life that crate=potty. I started out with an ex-pen with the crate inside and pee pads in the corner of it...Lacy might be too big for an ex-pen already...but after that I tethered her to me when I was home and gated her in a bathroom at night and when I had to leave, still with the crate in with her with the door open...gradually I stopped tethering and used baby gates to keep her in the same room as me so I could watch her. She sleeps loose in my bedroom. She had more accidents than she would have otherwise I think, but we still got her trained anyway. At the same time as all this, I worked on crate training her when I was home, basically feeding in the crate and giving extra special treats in the crate with the door shut. She goes in the crate o command now and no longer potties or barks in there, but I still hardly ever crate her.

 

As far as crate training goes... if she's barking and you let her out, you're teaching her that by barking, she gets freed from the crate.

I understand the neighbor situation, but is there any possibility you might be able to explain to them that you're training your dog, and some barking might occur? Teaching her that barking doesn't equal freedom is the only way to get her to stop. I don't know what noise violation laws are in your area, but if it's 3 PM, tell you're neighbor to shove it! Hah, but seriously... try living on a college campus. It's noisy 24/7... anyway, I'm getting side tracked

Like the others said, staying nearby her while she's crated should help ease the anxiety.

Reward her like crazy when she's in the crate - treats, stuffed kongs, lots of good stuff to keep her occupied. But only give these things to her while she's in the crate. Distract her and reassure her, so she doesn't fear being confined.

Dexter never really had a huge problem being crated, but he would cry and bark a little, when we left him. And he used to have to be put in his crate. Now I can tell him "Go in your crate" from the other side of the house and he'll run straight to it and sit inside. I reward him, shut the door, and he takes a nap.

It's frustrating, but you just need to make the crate a fun, safe, pleasant experience. Right now she just sees it as a scary cage that separates her from being near you.

However, if you're pretty set on going about it without the crate... I wouldn't use wee wee pads, at least not for long. They basically teach your dog that it's ok to go inside, as long as it's in a certain spot. If you're able to get her to go on the pads, then start bringing the pads outside, she may make the connection. We used the pads with Dexter very briefly, but I feel like they were more trouble than they were good (Dexter would go potty in the spot where pads used to be, etc.)

Everyone else has good suggestions. Keep her with you at all times, take her outside after meals, no water after 7 PM. Also make sure you're giving her plenty of exercise... that way, she might have less energy to let out if you do decide to attempt the crate at night.

 

I think the situation, (living on a military base, in military housing, where they are starting to ban specific breeds, and they will throw you out of the housing for ANY dog related complaints or require you to get rid of the dogs) supports the unreasonable nature of the situation and ANY barking.

I think that in all of this I would also be working very hard teaching my dogs to be silent, to be extremely obedient every where (even with strangers in the house working on the mechanicals) and to be so thoroughly house broken and well behaved that no one would care if the dogs were there or not....

.... and I would also be doing what the OP is doing... trying to find off base housing. (I know the area and the market. It is difficult to find anything liveable as in Decent Safe and Sanitary and affordable within commuting distance of the base.. everyone else living on base is trying to do the same thing and there is a severe housing shortage in the area).

 

.... and I would also be doing what the OP is doing... trying to find off base housing. (I know the area and the market. It is difficult to find anything liveable as in Decent Safe and Sanitary and affordable within commuting distance of the base.. everyone else living on base is trying to do the same thing and there is a severe housing shortage in the area).

We're actually looking to buy, but it's going to be awhile...lots of things to pay off first before my credit is decent (divorces can get ya, 3 years, still paying, gah) so that's been the issue with that. As far as the maintenance guys, they are now requesting dogs be put in another room away from them for their safety...with the breed banning it's an extra precaution because if they don't even SEE my dogs, they can't say my dogs had anything bad to do. However, what you suggest about the perfect behavior and basically nobody realizing we have dogs in the house is what my goal is. I'm just avoiding complaints all the way around. Lily doesn't bark, Lacey does though, but we're working on quiet command and there's some progress.

You haven't mentioned what their feeding schedule is, water availability and exercise routine is. I think this plays a huge part in housebreaking without a crate. I never use a crate for my adult fosters. It takes a strict diligence with their routine though, but they normally catch on quick.

K, that's easy enough. They get fed twice a day, once in the morning (usually around 9 AM sometimes a bit earlier depending on if I need to do anything) and in the evening around 6-7 PM, the times just recently changed now that I know her schedule. It takes approximately 12 hours for food to go through Lacey's system (I know this, I have been studying it...sad that I keep a log of when my dog poos...but I do) hence the schedule change, a 4 AM wakeup was called for the other morning because someone was finally telling me she needed out. So times got switched within reasonable hours for me to be up. Water is available from when they get up until right after dinner...then it's gone for the night. Peeing hasn't been the issue so much as the pooing. Some of that I can attribute to her getting used to a new diet (read that as good diet, her first poos at my house were horrible and obviously filled with corn...no clue what they fed her)
Exercise has been a problem. The weather sucks, I'm not acclimated to the cold yet so getting out and moving around when I need to dress like an Eskimo isn't my thing. We've been playing lots of games indoors and praying for decent weather, so the mental edge is being taken down a notch but not the physical side of it. I can't wait to get outside in nice weather again, not only for the dogs but for my kids sake. They're tired of being cooped up too. I was using a treadmill for Lily, but it broke beyond being fixable.

I don't crate.

I also play the 'cross your legs' game.

I tether the dog to me and the minute I see them start to squat I start moving very fast and calling out praise and encouragement. Run around for a minute and then run outside and click treat when they squat outside.

ETA

gradually increase the time you run around before you run outside.

it trains them to hold it.

I'm going to have to try this.

Ok, as for the neighbor...he's non-tolerant 100%. We've had words, he's blamed me for animals pooing in his yard, saying it was mine...there's a 6 ft wooden privacy fence between the yards...therefore, he's an @$$hat. Unless my dog is super-dog and can jump a 6 foot fence (which Lily can do) poo in his yard, then hop back over (she was maybe 4 months old when he accused us of this and she just now can hop the fence) then I don't see how it happened. I don't know why, but he just doesn't like us. My other neighbor is very tolerant (and has dogs) and doesn't care...I extend the curteousy by not caring (read that as not complaining I guess) when her kids play Guitar hero until 3 AM and I can hear all the words to the song...we share a wall.
I can't pick my neighbors, and he moved in after me. If I had known I was going to live next to someone so intolerant, I wouldn't have picked this house and asked for another...but we were here for a month before Jerkzilla moved in. We also have other problems with him aside from the dogs. That's a long story though.

So, progress update.

Three nights, sleep deprived. No more doggy poo in my house though so that's a plus. I don't know Lacey's history, but something about crates flips her out. Tried feeding her in it with the door open...she's suspicious and won't eat more than a bite and run out. So, we put some treats that she couldn't resist in there, she dragged them out. Sometimes she'll go in it on her own, but as soon as anyone comes near she races out. She has a good sized open crate (wire crate) big enough for me to get into comfortably, so it's not like a really tight enclosed area.

But, she's fine if left loose in my bedroom and will sleep on the bed with me unless she really needs to go. She's letting me know by whining and barking at me (not that loud obnoxious bark but the low "woof"...we're getting a system down)

Someone else asked how often I'm home. I'm home all day, every day...aside from maybe an hour or two to grocery shop every 2 weeks and get dog food. I have 3 kids, 2 that aren't old enough to go to school, and a husband in the Army that's gone all the time...so I'm home a LOT. Sometimes I might have an appt to run to in the mornings, but other than that...yeah I have no life.

Just for the record. I have nothing against crating, Lily is crate trained, Smokey is not because we worked around it (I had tile floors in my last house and a bigger yard...worked out a lot easier with a dog that had never been in the house as opposed to a dog that had been previously allowed to crap in the house) and I have to say I've been bad about this too when people ask questions like mine and suggested retrying the crating thing. It's been an eye-opener to have a dog that just isn't having it. I'm guilty of doing the same thing others have done with my thread, and now I can understand how frustrating it can be.

Oh and clean up. I just shampooed all the carpet in my house with vinegar and water...once it dried it smells decent in here again, but I was using enzyme cleaner to spot clean prior to that. Carpet sucks.

Ok, I think I covered all bases.

 

I'd start a whole new routine. You need to confine the dog to a room/section area, like kitchen or somewhere where they can see you and keep crate in there with door open. Don't force them in or they'll hate it. Yes they make gates for large entrance ways. Pick a weekend when you're around and walk the dog frequently, every hour or two. Also, pick up the water early in the evening. I potty trained mine this way in days. Even now will never go in house. I know some neighbors have nothing else to do, too bad for you.

 

Crate-training is NOT the only option here -- and maybe Zim will back me up on this -- so I'm not sure why everyone is offering solutions on how to improvise with a crate. I housetrained both my dogs without a crate. I just didn't know what crate-training was.

I used an X-pen, about 1x1 metres, to confine her when I couldn't supervise her. I carpeted it with newspapers just to make messes easier to clean up. I also worked out a feeding schedule, the same way you would for a crate-trained dog, and took her out at the appropriate times to reinforce for eliminating outside. I'd go out there and sit with her onleash, reading a book till she finally went. The more supervision you can provide, the faster the process. When she peed on walks, I'd throw a huge party about it. It wasn't as structured as crate-training and probably less expeditious but it worked.

 

Crate-training is NOT the only option here -- and maybe Zim will back me up on this -- so I'm not sure why everyone is offering solutions on how to improvise with a crate. I housetrained both my dogs without a crate. I just didn't know what crate-training was.

I used an X-pen, about 1x1 metres, to confine her when I couldn't supervise her.

Maybe I am not entirely clear on how you used the X-pen here, but it seems as though the x-pen was used rather similarly to what one would do with a crate.

I could see where the x-pen could be a better idea for this pup and the barking. Maybe the idea of the open top (not so confined feeling) would make a difference for her.

Did you ever have issues with jumping out, or did you just have a taller sided one?

 

You haven't mentioned what their feeding schedule is, water availability and exercise routine is. I think this plays a huge part in housebreaking without a crate. I never use a crate for my adult fosters. It takes a strict diligence with their routine though, but they normally catch on quick.

 

i don tknow how much you are home. but maybe you can try tethering the dog to you and just going out a ridiculous amount of times until the dog starts to get used to going outside so much that it 'prefers' it enough to be willing to wait until the nxt time it can go out. if maybe you had a 4 day weekend or somethin from work coming up you can stay and watch her like a hawk, bring her out every second youre not doing anything else, you might be able to get her to start preferring to go outside. if she doesnt want to , try putting a those smell things that make dogs want to go in a spot outside and bring her there each time.

 

That game...it isn't something I do with super young puppies. But for an older pup to older dog it really helps.

There are two keys to it.

a. timing. the INSTANT they start acting like they are going to go in the house but before they are actually going in the house is when you want to sort of rev them up. Next time I housetrain a dog Im going to use the rev up cool down sticky in conjunction with this game. I usually just shout their name and then ''COME'' and then start running around like a madwoman yelling ''yeah yeah good dog good dog come get me Come come COME!!''

b. reward. when you get them outside and they go you produce sometime FANTASTIC and completely out of the ordinary.


its not really training their mind so much as manipulating their mind to train the body to be able to hold it...


and it may not immediately work..it only works when you find the right motivational combo.

As they get better at it and can hold it for longer and longer you incrementally tone it down and start varying the reward. I still always reward for pottying outside. Just not always utterly wonderful droolworthy rewards.

forgot to mention

the cross your legs game has an interesting side effect if you always keep your runaround the house to a pattern.

Every dog I've used it to help housetrain...they run the pattern when they need to go.

 

It looks like you are making progress....

Now if you could just move the neighbor to the Northwoods (Adirondack forest Preserve)... He ought to be able to make it.. spring up there arrives in May sometime along with blackflies the size of cats which will suck a preson dry on the second bite.... He will just LOVE the quiet. Fact is, if you get him far enough in, all he will hear is his own voice echo off the trees and mountains as he screams for help.... (and they think the Windego is evil????)