Those behaviors are appeasement behaviors. . .she's saying "see how cute I am? Please don't hurt me!". So something is scaring her. Did anything scary happen in the car? Do you use harsh methods? But suffice to say, no, she's not trying to be "dominant". Your dog does not want to take over the world, LOL.

 

I've tried both methods to be honest but I try to be easy on her if I don't understand the behavior, I did have to swirv to avoid an accident and she hit the door, (not too hard) that's all I can think of. And the way she was barking and mouthing sure seemed to be a callenge of sorts I just get thrown off because she was submissive before hand. Combind with the way she started blowing me off when potty time is over and its time to go in, it seems she is under the impression se is alpha and is trying o maintain that position.I dunno :-\

 

No your dog is not trying to take over the world! Dominance and the pack theory are complete bunk. As the poster above said those are appeasement behaviours, she is trying to tell you she is afraid. it would take only a few minutes for a good clicker trainer to get her in the car on her own steam, and only a few sessions (5 or 10 minutes each session) for her to like getting in the car. She is a "soft" dog and needs gentle handling, from the little info you've given.

 

From what you've described, it sounds as though the car incident (swerving, her hitting the door) could have resulted in a bit of fear / discomfort. After one minor accident that occurred years ago, I'm still uneasy about four-way stops. Earlier this week my dog started refusing to walk into the yard - I have no idea why. I was patient with her: walked a few steps into the yard, called her name, and lured her with treats (I could have used a toy, but bits of dehydrated lamb lung fit in my pocket better than a squeaky ball or stuffed raccoon). After a few times, she went back to her normal behavior.

Her dancing, barking, and mouthing sound like her wanting to play. If she needs a run, that's more indication that she has some excess energy and needs an appropriate way (e.g., walks, play, training) to expend it. She's not "blowing you off" when she doesn't want to go in after potty time - she wants to explore the wonderful world around her!

As Deaf Dogs said, dominance theory is not supported by scientific evidence. Take a look at the resources listed in the recommended reading sticky and here are some additional resources: Dominance Myths and Dog Training Realities, The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory, and Dominance and Dog Training. Also, take a look at the materials on Ian Dunbar's site, Dog Star Daily, especially the free downloads.

 

I agree with the 4 responses above.
There certainly is something that's making her stressed about the car, maybe it's the swerve, or maybe you'ill never find out what exactly, but it doesn't matter.
Dominance between 2 different species does not exist.
Don't talk to her "sternly" around the car, and dont act as if she was trying to "dominate" you, this will only stress her more, and she might even shut down.

What I would do is stop taking her on car rides.
Feed her meals around/near/beside the car for a couple days.
Then feed her meals inside the car, without turning the motor on.
After a couple days, if she's doing ok, feed her meals in the car and turn the motor on and off while she's still eating.
Then feed her in the car and drive around the block, etc...
This must be done progressively and always under threshhold; for example, if she will not eat, or "freezes", she's too close to the car, feed her further away.

 

This is what I hate about dominance theory. It turns a puppy's innocent invitation to play into something to worry about.

OP, read the recommended articles and then read our stickies. You're about to enter an era of doing things with your dog instead of to your dog.

Oh, and get a seatbelt harness. Dogs aren't safe just loose in the car.

 

I hav a 10 month old pit, total cupcake..except: she has been avoiding getting into the car this week, she lays down and chills, when I walk overor speak stearnly she rlls over and submits and I have to drag or carry her.

I find it interesting you describe her as submitting, but then are worried about her being dominant. Also that she's a total cupcake. That's usually not a 'I'm gonna own you' personality

today, granted she needs a run, she bgan dancing and spining, barking and mouthing my hand when I approached her.I have been showing her recently to walk out of the house after me as well as leash training, is she fighting to be pack leader?

Sometimes, play is just play.

Keep working with her on the leash walking and being patient will help her learn control and what you expect in situations. From this, it sounds like you're fine. Good luck with your puppy.

And the way she was barking and mouthing sure seemed to be a callenge of sorts I just get thrown off because she was submissive before hand. Combind with the way she started blowing me off when potty time is over and its time to go in, it seems she is under the impression se is alpha and is trying o maintain that position.I dunno :-\

Well, one thing standard explanations of dominance/submission miss is that it's a fluid thing. So different situations can call for different members of the group to "be dominant". That said, it sounds like play and energy built up. Dogs do bark and mouth during play (play is partly practicing survival/adult behaviors in non-critical, safe enviornments, and barking and biting are definitely some often used behaviors in adult dogs if only to "talk" and eat )

How does she blow you off? Is she just really interested in continuing to sniff? Distracted by everything? Does she stand there watching you? What happens if you move towards her? Could be wanting to start a game? (Does she play bow, etc). Is she standing still, but looking alternately at you and something else? (indication that she might want to go that way and is looking to you to see if you and her can go)

Has she learned recall pretty well? If so, you can build a behavior chain - go potty, then recall. The reward can then be taking her to go sniff or investigate whatever.

 

Thanks you all for your advice, I feel like a totall a hole now lol I'm going to go give stella a big hug and a treat! And in respose to thegoing back in, she will either lay there and not listen or sniff arround or start walking further in the back yard.

 

This is why Cesar should not be on TV. to many people take his methods and apply them in the wrong way.

 

It's def. not a dominance issue, that is for sure. I'm also not convinced it's necessarily fear either. I think she is just not wanting to do these things, such as get in the car, or go inside. It seems like she is simply protesting. Bella does this when she doesn't want to walk home from the dog park or it's hot out and she just doesn't want to walk. She will try to veer off to the side of the road and lay down in protest. She will just literally lay there lol. I don't know what your location is but it's pretty hot out now and cars get extremely hot. That could be a reason why she doesn't want to get in....

 

Forget about "dominant" and "submissive. What are the behaviors you WANT? work to get them and a good social relationship is likely to follow.

 

Dominant behaviour in dogs may well be bunkum but it seems to hold true for human beings in this thread towards the OP.:wave:

Why is it that the word "dominant" presses buttons in people anyway?
I'm prepared to respect a different point of view on dog training. there is more than one way you know.

 

Why is it that the word "dominant" presses buttons in people anyway?

Because this training method usually results in creates more problems than it solves. It results in a shut down, unhappy, dog. It can create a dog that will explode in a vicious attack unexpectedly. It can become abusive in the hands of some people. A lot of this is because it starts from an incorrect premise, that the dog is trying to take over.

When I was at the beach over the weekend I saw several people who were using CM/dominance style training. They were 'tchting', belly kicking and so forth just like their celebrity mentor. Their dogs were highly reactive toward other dogs and were obviously highly stressed. They were giving off calming signals and looked quite unhappy. In one case, the owner began slapping/spanking the dog when he kept reacting poorly.

In contrast, there were some happy, engaged, dogs around who didn't react poorly to other dogs and people. I don't know, of course, what kind of training method they used but it clearly didn't involve overbearing dominance.

EDIT: Here's another case in point from another thread here: http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/116393-traveler-need-some-advice.html

I have tried flipping her on her back to show dominance and biting her ear... talking to her in a disappointed tone, and telling her that what she is doing is wrong... but still she continues to nip... the only thing that has changed... is now... she tries to be sneakier about it... she generally won't nip unless I am not looking...

 

good answers sassy and bgm!

 

Not overtly rude I admit but a more insidious know it all arrogant tone, I've seen on more than one dog forum. >>>>

keep in mind that "tone" and emotion can be hard to interpret in written answers.

 

Not overtly rude I admit but a more insidious know it all arrogant tone, I've seen on more than one dog forum.
And "the opinion" comes across more as "self-righteous fact". As if the people who adhere to old school training methods are imbecilic dinosaurs.

Hey, I'm a self-confessed old school dinosaur. I never did use the imbecilic word. Just always admitted to not being brightest bulb in the box.

 

Hey, I'm a self-confessed old school dinosaur. I never did use the imbecilic word. Just always admitted to not being brightest bulb in the box.

let's start a dinosaur dog owner's club then.
Any schools of thought welcome.
In fact any thinking.

 

Dominate versus lead...I guess I think of it as how I want to be managed at work. I wouldn't be very motivated to work for a boss who tried to dominate me: "Do what I say or you're fired!! I'm important because I'm the BOSS, so hop to it". I'd do what he said alright, but I'd be doing as just what I had to and no more and I'd be looking for another job. A boss who leads, on the other hand would explain why what WE were working on was important (and he'd have enough of a clue to get me to buy into that explanation), would explain why my contribution is important to the effort and make me feel like we were working together toward that goal, rather than my doing his bidding "just because" or "or else". Positive feedback as well, "Great job!" "Couldn't have done it without you", and, support when you run into trouble with others...i.e, having my back. THAT boss, I'll go the extra mile for and won't be looking for a new one right away .

Dogs, of course, don't understand all that talk. But, I think it's the same basic thing...dog will consider you a leader if you are confident, fair, predictable, can be trusted and you provide the salary (in their case, food, water, shelter, affection...).

 

Of course I like nice bosses too. But if they are all carrot and no stick, you start to lose respect for them. A little healthy fear, reminds you of the bottom line. They can and will fire you if you aren't doing your job.
Maybe that analysis isn't fair though. I mean I treat my dog like he's my own child, which surely crosses sensible boundaries of the dog/master relationship. Familiarity breeds contempt? ........

 

I don't Wally to have any fear of me. He was already once a fearful dog. Why would I want to introduce fear to our relationship?

 

There have been two schools of thought on dog training for well over a century. They basically break down to using negative vs. positive techniques although the scientific basis for one method or the other has varied over the years. I wouldn't say one is more "old school" than the other. You can find 19th century writings that recommended that you beat sense into a dog with a whip or cane and others that recommend that you use treats and gentle handling to bring out the best performance in dogs.

My family's tradition has been to use gentle and positive methods when training dogs (as well as horses/ponies) going back at least 4 or 5 generations. The training has been primarily been for hunting and herding and even some vaudeville/circus type performances back in the early 20th century. I'd guess someone who primarily trained for military/police work or something along those lines might have a different training tradition. However, I do think training for the average family pet needs to be far more positive than negative based.

 

Wow..to the OP:
It does sound like your girl got a bit of a scare when you had the bump in the car happen. Remember that dogs in their adolescent time can go through fear periods AND periods of what appears to be "blowing you off". This is just an opportunity to kick up your management (ie start taking her to do her business on a long line) and making sure that your rewards for coming to you (even if you have to use the line to walk her in) is worth her doing it. The brain in her head is doing some wonky things, she is far from "grown up".

I also want you to think about the jumping and mouthing and if she does it again to take a real look at her face and body language...is it frantic? Are her pupils dilated? Some dogs that are feeling anxious pump up the appeasement behaviours, so it is possible that this is NOT play and is anxiety based. For me, I find that thinking about what happened just prior to the jumping/mouthing will often indicate whether this is fun or not fun behaviour. Was she corrected for something prior to the behaviour? Did she have to do something she found scary?
Context is everything.

As for the leadership debate. I am captain of the team that is me and my dog, but she is a teammate, not an underling. Fear and respect are NOT the same thing. It is important to remember that positive does NOT mean permissive and none of the dogs I work with get away with doing things they are not supposed to. The difference is I distract, recall, cue a leave it etc and give the dogs an opportunity to earn a reward for doing what I want..and they can THINK it is what THEY want. Works fine for me.

 

Fear and respect are NOT the same thing.

Why are so many people afraid of "fear"?
No need to assume it's worst case scenario.
Like that awful word "dominance". I'm just a junior member here. Is there a smilie icon for rolling over to appease?

 

You mean you are so afraid of us, that you are willing to grovel? LOL. Actually, there was a great on-line lecture recently by Robert Sapolsky (a favorite neurobiologist of mine) on the consequences of stress in our lives. In nature the sympathetic nervous system provides us with important fight-or-flight responses that may save our life, but operates on a level where our body maintenance system (the parasympathetic nervous system) is put on temporary hold. We are not able to rest, we are not able to digest, and we are not able to heal injuries when that lion is chasing us. ALL our resources are put into use for survival and avoidance. As Sapolsky points out, in nature, the sympathetic nervous system generally only kicks in for a short period of time - and after three seconds, you've either evaded the lion -then you are able to go back to maintaing your body and health - or you are no more and none of it is any longer an issue. In our lives (and in our dogs lives sometimes, because we tend to treat them in certain ways and ask them to live in our world) we have more chronic stress and input from the sympathetic nervous system. This can - over time - lead to immune difficiencies and chronic disease. I have to teach my dogs certain rules for their survival, and my sanity. (not to mention avoiding a house full of pee and poo.) But I'm going to do it as low stress a way as possible with my dogs. I recognize that I can't avoid stress in learning altogether (learning is stressful) but I'm going to rely on other things than teaching them to fear me (or that sometimes I'm scary and sometimes I'm less so.) I don't need their fear to gain cooperation. I want eustress, not distress
http://www.openculture.com/2012/08/...atch_istress_portrait_of_a_killeri_with_stanford_biologist_robert_sapolsky.html
or, you can read his wonderful book "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers"

 

Because fear is a destructive emotion that shuts out all other emotions. It hinders learning and wears away at mental health. While it can keep us out of trouble (I have a serious fear of heights, which keeps me from falling off cliffs), it's also a negative thing (because it also keeps me off ferris wheels, and I can't clean my gutters). Fear isn't useful in training.

 

Yes, this exactly. Fear inhibits learning and fear and anxiety can be both mentally and physically damaging over time. When a fear is based around the humans actions it can be detrimental to the relationship between human and dog. I want my dog to be eager to learn not afraid of doing wrong.

 

I must also say, up until 3 years ago, I use to be a CM follower, I used to use a pinch collar, I used to use corrections and fear... I was introduced to clicker training, I have learned a better way, I am enlightened I no longer use any corrections or force... too late for Oliver, but I'll know what to do when I adopt another like him

 

I'll say I have met some really old school trainers who used to train working dogs and I must admit I had some prejudice about their "methods" but it turned out it was nothing like what I thought at all... they can get extremely crafty with food, toys and various strange inventions

I can only talk about pointing dogs and unnecessary force/abuse destroys style when a dog is pointing a bird. In competition a dog with no style just does not win.

 

I agree that fear is not useful for general training. However, I also agree with Sassycat's specific example for poison training. In Texas, we have significant rattlesnake issues, and the most common way to stop a dog from attacking a live rattlesnake (and getting fatally bitten) is through fear training. It may not be the "best" universal way to training, but it seems to be the most effective method for quickly getting the idea across to a wide variety of dogs. I wouldn't use this method for other training, but in this case, it is life or death and must be absolutely 100% successful in having a dog actively alert to and avoid snakes.

Disclaimer: I live in the suburbs with no poisonous snakes, and don't take my dog hunting, so I have never used this method myself.

 

Avoidance training has its place. I've used corrections to teach my dogs to stay away from cane toads. I probably could have trained them to leave toads alone using rewards, but it would have taken a lot longer, and I'm not sure if would be reliable once prey drive kicks in. It only took about 4-5 corrections for Obi, and 2 for Pixie, and now they avoid cane toads like the plague.

I don't like to use corrections or fear, I don't even use verbal corrections for anything, but when it's a matter of life and death, I want it fast and I want it reliable.

 

What about adrenalin? Night before exams? First date? Some people (example elite athletes) thrive on fear. They actually do better when the pressure is on. When the stakes are high. I use fear of losing as a motivation sometimes. Like this morning when I got out of bed. Go to work to avoid getting fired.

Isn't there a difference between fear and competition, excitement, anticipation? Even so, you can't teach new behaviors when someone is in that kind of mental state. Adrenaline doesn't leave room for new stuff. I can't imagine you got much out of algebra class on days you had a first date, right?

I go to work because I like my job. And when that fails, I go to work to get money. If I had to worry about being fired all the time, I wouldn't be able to function. Fortunately, I can't be fired, barring serious wrongdoing. And I avoid that behavior because I'm a good person, not because I'm afraid of being fired. I've seen the stress and anxiety that high sales quotas can cause. And maybe the salesperson steps up and gets those sales, but I stand by the negative effect on mental health. Someone who has a backup job plan and money in the bank may do OK with that kind of pressure, but when someone is afraid they won't be able to feed their family if they don't make their quotas, that kind of stress can be a real killer.

Now, obviously pain and fear can be used to create avoidance. But if you ever needed a poison-avoidance trained dog to eat off the ground or a snake-avoidance trained dog to approach a snake for some reason, it wouldn't happen, or at least not without causing the dog severe anxiety.

 

Adrenaline doesn't leave room for new stuff. I can't imagine you got much out of algebra class on days you had a first date, right?

Also, this.

The athlete (to use spolier's example) isn't trying to learn a new technique or refine his existing skills in those situations. Learning is non-factor. He/She is trying to win, not train.

 

>>> if you ever needed a poison-avoidance trained dog to eat off the ground or a snake-avoidance trained dog to approach a snake for some reason, it wouldn't happen...

Agreed! In these circumstances and locations, the need for 100% avoidance ( and the extreme consequences of failure) are worth the loss of ground-eating or snake-hunting function and capability...