What is your main concern? I've always equated runt with the smallest dog or the most timid etc. I don't normally equate it with health issues though that could be there. I mean if you like the pup and you're not going to show- sounds win win to me to save some extra cash? I know runts tend to become normal size or some even outgrow their litter mates.

Apparently this guy was a runt: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ggest-dog-world-Meet-George-7ft-long-Great-Dane--whos-terrified-chihuahuas.html

 

Well, health, definitely... I mean, Cavaliers are already notoriously unhealthy, so I don't know if I'm making a really bad investment by buying a runt. Btw, is an animal still called a runt if they weren't born the smallest but then grew a lot more slowly than the others? I'm just afraid that once I bring her home, she'll start getting sick and having health problems (I dunno, seizures, etc?) and by then it'll be too hard for me to give her up already! Lol.

The breeder thinks that she will be a lot smaller as an adult, maybe 6-8lbs as opposed to the usual 10-18.

And.. HOLY COW that dog is huge!!!

 

I think it'd be really hard to tell unless she is seemingly sick now. Especially for a condition like syringomyelia which probably would not show signs until later in it's life. Also if the runt has that issue there is a chance the other pups in the litter would also have the issue. IMO probably the best indicator of possible long-term health is the general health of bitch/stud.

 

I agree... I think it's gonna be one of those things where I won't know until several months/years down the road.

For what it's worth, her grandparents (I think I've seen 2 of the results) were tested for SM and MVD at age 5 and were clear. That's why I went with this breeder.

I met the sire today, he and Cadence got along very well. Lol. He's only 3 though, so still too early to know if he will have MVD or SM in the future (he's the one whose parents were MVD/SM clear at age 5). Also, he had a generally nice temperament. Pretty laid back and calm.

 

I'd absolutely buy the runt. My "heart dog" was a runt and lived to be 17 years old!

 

Wow, that is an amazing age, even for non-runts!

Anyhow, I managed to screenshot some pictures of the puppy from a video the breeder uploaded (Sorry about the crappy quality!):

She's the one in the middle, on top.

Look at that face!

Size comparison. That's her littermate beside her.

 

She's adorable. Though she looks small, she doesn't appear to be unhealthily "tiny" to me. Just a bit of a runt
I wouldn't buy a runt if the breeder was advertising the runt as "a rare teacup size CKCS, only $500 more than her littermates", kwim? One of my customers has a runt-sized CKCS, she was an TEENY baby, and as an adult she's petite and small, but not sickly-small.
The breeder sounds like a good one, and I would personally be flattered if they chose me as a home for a pup they were in love with but decided not to keep because of my knowledge. I'm an enabler. I say go for it :rockon:

 

There's a fairly recent thread around here about runts that kind of drifted into a discussion of just what a runt is. If you define a runt as the smallest but otherwise healthy puppy in a litter -- not only WOULD I absolutely buy one, technically I DID! Squash was the runt of his litter as defined this way, as he was the smallest at birth.

If you define a runt as an unhealthy or sickly puppy, then no I wouldn't buy a runt.

 

If the runt pulled at your heart, that is where I would look, not the littermate. If you are not showing & heath is tested then she just needs someone to love.

 

I would. Maggie is the runt. She still is too! 67 pounds and her brothers and sisters are at least 75.

 

If the pup is healthy then it matters not if it is the runt or not...From my experience runts always catch up to their litter mates. Get the lil one you will be happy and after a month you couldnt imagine having picked a bigger sibling.

 

I agree!!

 

Yep! I have no plans to ever show or breed, so a healthy but petite puppy poses no problem for me.

 

I've had two runts as family dogs, and they were both great dogs with little health issues. Granted, they were mixed breeds and we adopted them from the shelter.

I would be wary if the breeder is charging you less for the runt (why less for an equally good dog??), and offering her to you because she thinks you're experienced & good with dogs, etc -- that seems to me like giving you a crap dog for a discount. If I were so invested in a getting a certain dog of a certain breed, I'd want the best of the best.

I don't know anything about the correct weight for a puppy of that breed for that age - but 2lbs is a very, very small dog! With a situation like this, where you're obviously so invested, you don't want a dog that hasn't possibly had adequate nutrition for the most important time of its life.

 

I'd have no hesitation on getting her honestly. I use to own Cavaliers, loved them, spent alot of time and money researching breeders and trying to get a healthy one, lost one to cardiac problems at 4 years old, the other to SM. Sadly, this is one breed that as you sound well aware of, does have alot of health issues. That said - I did show, and got show dogs. Neither turned out as show dogs, and the breeder's contracts only went to 3 years old, so I was out alot of money in vet bills on both. Where this breeder is willing to cover health issues for the entire life of the dog, you have nothing to loose, but I'd ask them if by "covering" you'd have to return the puppy, or if they'd help with vet bills from any genetic problems that come up regardless. I couldn't return a dog I'd brought into my home and fallen in love with either!!!

I've had two runts as family dogs, and they were both great dogs with little health issues. Granted, they were mixed breeds and we adopted them from the shelter.

I would be wary if the breeder is charging you less for the runt (why less for an equally good dog??), and offering her to you because she thinks you're experienced & good with dogs, etc -- that seems to me like giving you a crap dog for a discount. If I were so invested in a getting a certain dog of a certain breed, I'd want the best of the best.

I don't know anything about the correct weight for a puppy of that breed for that age - but 2lbs is a very, very small dog! You don't want a dog that hasn't had adequate nutrition for the most important time of its life.

As a show breeder, I'd disagree with that, especially since she mentioned the breeder is willing to cover any genetic health problems for the entire life of the dog as long as she keeps in contact. I often lower my prices for people I know well, or have been in contact with me for a long time, and I have a dog that I know is nothing but a pet and all I really want is someone that'll love and spoil it! That said, I wouldn't offer just anyone a discount on a puppy, and NOBODY gets a puppy from me until it's spayed/neutered and I've had several interviews, and done a really detailed check on the person, I want to know where my babies are going and feel confident the people taking them will keep in touch! If someone has been really good to stay in touch long before I even have bred my bitch, or whelped the litter, I'm much more likely to offer them a lower price then I'd offer the average person, especially on a pet quality dog.

 

Not to rain on this parade.... But..... Something you related from the breeder caught my eye.... This pup was the same size at the others at birth but is growing more slowly.

If it was me, I would have a concern about Liver Shunt. Slowed growth in puppies is a symptom and a quick google search shows it occurs in the breed.

 

Kennedy, my roommate's cavalier, was and still is a runt. At three years old she still has no heart murmur. That's all I know as far as the typical cav issues. She's on a great diet and we keep her very active. Because of that she can run circles around every other cav we know even though her original owners bought her from a crappy Missouri puppy mill.

However, I'm inclined to trust JB's opinion. Can you have the vet check her liver before agreeing to take her?

 

According to the breeder, when she was born, she was the same size as her littermates, but she's just growing a lot more slowly than the others.

I have no idea what this could mean and because I've NEVER whelped any puppies in my life, I'm hoping that some of you could shed some light on this situation.

In the usual breeders sense of the word a runt is a puppy that is born significantly smaller than the other pups. Many times runts will catch up and be a normal sized adult.....

But that does not seem to be the case here..... This put is falling behind, not catching up. There is a reason for that. Could be a lot of reasons. Some serious. Some not.

 

I would definitely have the Vet check him out. JohnnyBandit mentioned: Liver Shunt. Check that also.

While you're talking to the Vet consider that a 'runt' may just be one of the last puppies that was conceived. The pups were small, so a small difference in weight, may not have been noticeable. But I agree with most, that a well-fed runt that's healthy should grow up just fine.

 

I'd get her vet-checked first (which the breeder said you could do) and if everything comes up fine there, I'd take her. Yes, she could develop problems in the future, but so could any cavalier (or any dog). It's responsible and commendable of the breeder to offer you a lifetime health guarantee on this pup.

 

I'm a terrible enabler LOL Just look at me - 5 dogs, 5 cats, and thankfully a nice big house and large yard to keep them all happy LOL Only reason I have a California King bed is so the dogs have enough room on the bed! It's always good to be cautious even with good breeders, but it sure doesn't sound like this breeder is trying to hide anything!

 

I'll send you a PM. They weren't that weight at 13 weeks, but my little girl was quite a bit smaller then her larger litter mates even though at birth she was the largest. She's actually a good pound smaller then the next smallest puppy in her litter now that they're all full grown! I've seen 1 other case with a cavalier where all the puppies where the same size at birth, and 1 puppy stayed very small and was probably about the same size as your little girl at 13 weeks. She matured to be 9 lbs, where most of her litter mates where 14 - 16 lbs, but she's healthy, she's never had a problem! BUT you just never know, this breeder had never had a small puppy before, either!

 

I'll send you a PM. They weren't that weight at 13 weeks, but my little girl was quite a bit smaller then her larger litter mates even though at birth she was the largest. She's actually a good pound smaller then the next smallest puppy in her litter now that they're all full grown! I've seen 1 other case with a cavalier where all the puppies where the same size at birth, and 1 puppy stayed very small and was probably about the same size as your little girl at 13 weeks. She matured to be 9 lbs, where most of her litter mates where 14 - 16 lbs, but she's healthy, she's never had a problem! BUT you just never know, this breeder had never had a small puppy before, either!

Woops - Forgot to add, I don't know if you saw the piece about the urine bile acid test that they can do here in the US. Not sure what they offer in Malaysia but it'd be worth asking your vet about, I don't like fasting puppies when at all avoidable, especially a small puppy that young! The fasting bile acid test is a bit more accurate, the urine bile acid test is a bit more specific, I can't remember the numbers but I'll see if I can find some articles on the 2 methods of testing for bile acid for you.

That's very comforting to know! About your friend's puppy, that is. The breeder thinks that this little puppy will stay very small, maybe topping out at 7lbs, so tiny for a Cavalier! I don't think she will even be able to eat the Orijen kibble I'm feeding Cadence because of her size. I'm thinking might have to feed her canned food for the first couple of weeks.

I will have to ask my vet if he's able to do a bile acid test. I'm also worried about fasting a tiny puppy for 12 hours, which is why I wanted to do bloodwork instead. Is a blood test sufficient to test for liver function or do I absolutely need the vet to run a bile acid test on her?

I have gotten runts before. My last runt from a breeder ended up bigger than all his littermates in the long haul! He is healthy and temperament couldn't have been any better, a gentle giant at it's finest. We did a sort've litter reunion at the breeders house once and he was the most well behaved and loved boy of the crowd so we definitely got the best one. I did get a heavy discount because he was so little and was really shy as a pup, but he grew up to be a confident adult.

I can understand why breeders who are doing show quality dogs would mark a discount as there is a questionable variable if they will ever breed standard in their adult life but doesn't mean anything wrong with her for a great pet. You are not showing, not breeding, so this is a good opportunity for you given that the puppy checks out fine at the vet.

Think about it for a few days, and let us know what you decide, but I think you'll be very glad to get a good dog at a good price that gets along well with Cadence and has made a impression on you.

That's great that your pup turned out confident! That's also a bit of a crapshoot with puppies, huh? When they're little most of them are crazy, hyper, and friendly, but not all of them grow up that way.. and then some who are shy really blossom when they're separated from their littermates.

I'm definitely going to be thinking about it long and hard. I've told the breeder that I'll make a decision by the end of the week, so... I'll be keeping all of you posted on what I decide!

I'm also feeling kinda nervous adding another dog. It's just going to be such a huge jump going from 1 to 2 dogs Right now Cadence gets to eat whenever he wants and I don't have to worry about separating dogs during feeding time etc. etc.

I think I'm going to post a separate thread on the training forum because I've never trained 2 dogs at the same time before... In your opinions, is it absolutely necessary for dogs to learn to be alone? It took Cadence a long time to adjust to being alone (he sounded like a banshee every time I was out of sight), but this new pup will probably never spend any time alone at all since Cadence will be there to keep her company.

 

I have gotten runts before. My last runt from a breeder ended up bigger than all his littermates in the long haul! He is healthy and temperament couldn't have been any better, a gentle giant at it's finest. We did a sort've litter reunion at the breeders house once and he was the most well behaved and loved boy of the crowd so we definitely got the best one. I did get a heavy discount because he was so little and was really shy as a pup, but he grew up to be a confident adult.

I can understand why breeders who are doing show quality dogs would mark a discount as there is a questionable variable if they will ever breed standard in their adult life but doesn't mean anything wrong with her for a great pet. You are not showing, not breeding, so this is a good opportunity for you given that the puppy checks out fine at the vet.

Think about it for a few days, and let us know what you decide, but I think you'll be very glad to get a good dog at a good price that gets along well with Cadence and has made a impression on you.

 

Woops - Forgot to add, I don't know if you saw the piece about the urine bile acid test that they can do here in the US. Not sure what they offer in Malaysia but it'd be worth asking your vet about, I don't like fasting puppies when at all avoidable, especially a small puppy that young! The fasting bile acid test is a bit more accurate, the urine bile acid test is a bit more specific, I can't remember the numbers but I'll see if I can find some articles on the 2 methods of testing for bile acid for you.

 

I think it's a matter of personal preference - I like my dogs to learn to be alone so if they do have to be hospitalized or something for any reason, they're ok being isolated at the vet clinic and it doesn't stress them out any more then needed, plus I show some of my dogs, so they have to be ok with being crated and alone ring side and in the grooming area when they're not in the ring.

As for the health testing questions - Standard blood work I find is insufficient to really rule out a liver problem. It may indicate there could be, but for liver problems to show on standard blood work there has to be significant damage done to the liver already, that's why I always recommend the bile acid test if there's a concern about a shunt or liver problem.

As for feeding - You may be surprised! Orijen is a very good kibble, if at first she has a hard time, try soaking it a little - Canned food can be a great alternative as well. Honestly, I am not a big fan of dry kibble alone. More so with cats then dogs, but dry kibble can lead to bladder issues, kidney problems, urinary problems, etc. A dog's natural diet is high in moisture, where dogs tend to drink more water on their own then a cat would it's not a HUGE deal, but I still prefer moistening kibble, or feeding canned food if a commercial diet is going to be used. Myself, I prefer to feed raw, but understand that's not an option for everyone or every dog - One of my dogs can't eat raw because of medical problems that prevent her from being able to digest her food effectively, but I find in general raw is by far the healthiest way to feed your dog.

 

I've just spoken to the breeder again, and he agrees on doing an acid bile test as well as bloodwork to rule out any potential problems with the pup (whose temporary name is Chloe, given by the breeder). He's also agreed to let me take her home for a week to get her checked over by the vet and to see how well she gets along with Cadence before I commit to anything--he's agreeing to take her back if for some reason I don't feel she's a good fit or if she isn't given a clean bill of health.

I got the breeder to send me some photos of here so here they are!

 

omg, that face! How could you resist? She is DARLING! Almost makes me want another cavalier! I'm really liking this breeder - Not only is it very clear to me as a breeder myself that they've got nothing to hide, but they're going out of their way to make sure that this darling puppy is totally healthy, just tiny. Wither you get this puppy or a puppy from this breeder down the road - I'd say you've found your self a GREAT breeder!

 

Well, beause I am an enabler, i am going to tell you to get another Cavalier!! I know, i'm having a seriously hard time saying no to that face! I agree, I got really lucky with this breeder and he was only the second one I contacted while searching. If I end up not getting this puppy, I would most definitely be getting another one of his somewhere down the line. Isnt it funny how we all root for the underdog? The breeder's entire family loves this little girl and really want her to go to a great home where she will be well taken care of and loved. They've also said that she seems like the kind of dog who will do best with a canine friend instead of being an only dog. I'm 100% sure Cadence is the same way too--he took a really long time to adjust to being alone and till toda, whenever he goes to daycare or the boarder's, he runs in at full speed, completely ignoring me, to go and play with his buddies