Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

Spay,Neuter and Joint Disease

11K views 102 replies 17 participants last post by  luv mi pets  
#1 ·
There are three topics you shouldn’t discuss with friends: religion, politics and mandatory spay/neuter. Talking frankly about spay/neuter is worth the backlash however because the health risks associated with it, especially when done in a young dog, are worthy of discussion. That isn’t to say that dogs shouldn’t be spayed or neutered; that’s a personal decision best left to the pet owner. Like vaccines and most routine veterinary procedures however, vets spend a lot of time discussing why you should spay or neuter your dog, but spend very little time talking about why you shouldn’t. The goal of this article is to give you the information your vet doesn’t, so you can make the best possible decision for your dog.

I’ll preface the article by stating that I breed Labrador Retrievers, a breed that can be prone to hip and elbow dysplasia, as well as cruciate tears. The families that get one of my puppies receive a warranty of sorts, saying that I have done everything I can to prevent these issues and if, despite my best efforts, the puppy I’ve bred ends up with a debilitating joint issue, I will refund the purchase price to the puppy’s family.

There is one disclaimer however and it’s as follows: if the family decides to spay or neuter the puppy before 24 months of age, my warranty is null and void. The reason is that research shows I can’t guarantee the puppy’s joints won’t be affected by this seemingly simple medical procedure. Spay/neuter has the capability of permanently changing a healthy puppy joint into an unhealthy one.
Abnormal Growth

At the heart of the matter is how spay/neuter affects the dog’s hormones. When a dog’s reproductive organs are surgically removed, the sex hormones they produce also disappear. The sex hormones are responsible for more than just sexual behaviors and one of their responsibilities is regulating growth.

Breeders can readily spot the difference between an intact dog and a neutered dog: neutered dogs have longer limbs, narrower heads and bodies, and they are lighter in bone. When the sex hormones are removed, the growth hormones are missing important regulatory input and the bones continue to grow longer than they ought to. Studies have proven this to be true (Salmeri et al, JAVMA 1991).

In each long bone there is a growth (epiphyseal) plate, which is a band of cartilage found near the joint. This growth plate lays down bone as a puppy develops and, as it builds bone, the bone becomes longer and the puppy gets larger and taller. Once maturity is reached, this growth plate turns into bone and the puppy’s full height is reached.

When dogs are sterilized before maturity, the closure of some but not all growth plates may be delayed and this would be especially true if a dog is sterilized when only some of his growth plates are closed.

The dog’s elbow and stifle joints are similarly designed. Above each joint is one bone (the humerus and femur respectively), and below are two bones (in the elbow there is the radius and ulna and in the stifle there is the tibia and fibula). One bone effectively sits on two. What would happen if one of those bones underneath the joint stopped growing before the other bone and they ended up being different lengths? It would be very much like building a house on a slope: the weight of the home wouldn’t be evenly distributed and there would be increased load at the lowermost corner of the house.

The same could very well happen in the elbow and stifle joint when closure of the growth plates is artificially delayed and this could in turn lead to increased risk of both elbow dysplasia and cranial cruciate ligament tears.

There is research that supports this. Whitehair et al (JAVMA Oct 1993), found that spayed and neutered dogs were twice as likely to suffer cranial cruciate ligament rupture. Slauterbeck et al also found an increased risk (Clin Orthop Relat Res Dec 2004).

Chris Zinc DVM PhD DACVP explains, “…if the femur has achieved its genetically determined normal length at eight months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle likely becomes heavier (because it is longer), and may cause increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament.”

Additionally, sterilization can cause a loss of bone mass (Martin et al, Bone 1987), and obesity (Edney et al, Vet Rec Apr 1986). Both of these factors could lead to an increased risk of cranial cruciate ligament tear. Furthermore, spayed/neutered dogs are greater than three times more likely to suffer from patellar luxation (Vidoni et al, Wien Tierartztl Mschr 2005).
Hip Dysplasia

The thought of hip dysplasia is enough to strike fear into any large breed dog lover. For that reason, the bulk of research on spay/neuter and joint disease is focused on this disorder.

Dogs who are sterilized before the age of six months have a 70% increased risk of developing hip dysplasia. The authors of this study (Spain et al, JAVMA 2004), propose that “it is possible that the increase in bone length that results from early-age gonadectomy results in changes in joint conformation, which could lead to a diagnosis of hip dysplasia.”

There is more evidence that spay/neuter can increase the risk of hip dysplasia. Van Hagen et al (Am J Vet Res, Feb 2005), found that of the sample dogs diagnosed with hip dysplasia, those that were neutered six months prior to the diagnosis were nearly twice as likely to develop hip dysplasia.

Interestingly, a study by Dannuccia et al (Calcif Tissue Int, 1986), found that removing the ovaries of Beagles caused increased remodeling of the pelvic bone, which also suggests an increased risk of hip dysplasia with sterilization.
Osteosarcoma

Although not technically a joint issue, osteosarcoma is a cancer of the bone. This bears mentioning because spayed and neutered dogs are twice as likely to develop this deadly disease (Ru et al, Vet J, Jul 1998).

In another study, male Rottweilers, a breed susceptible to osteosarcoma, were nearly four times more likely to develop osteosarcoma than intact dogs (Cooley et al, Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev, Nov 2002). In fact, Rottweilers spayed or neutered before one year of age had a 28.4%(males) and 25.1% (females) risk of developing osteosarcoma. Interestingly, the researchers concluded from their results that the longer the dogs were exposed to sex hormones, the lower their risk of osteosarcoma.
Playing Roulette

There are other related risks with spay/neuter, including an increased risk of many cancers, hypothyroidism, diabetes, urogenital disorders, cognitive impairment, obesity and adverse vaccine reactions – not to mention the risk associated with the surgery and the anesthetic. These risks should all be considered when it comes time to decide if spay/neuter is an option for your dog.

What does seem to be clear is that the risk of joint disease in particular is greatly exaggerated if the dog is sterilized before the growth plates close. It’s important to remember that the sex hormones do play a synergistic role in your dog’s growth and development and their removal will create imbalance in the body. Just what the fallout from this imbalance entails remains to be seen, as research into the effects of sterilization is in its infancy, even though hysterectomies on humans and spay/neuter on dogs has been accepted as a normal procedure for decades!

The age at which the growth plates close is entirely dependent on the dog and the breed. In general, the larger the dog, the later the growth plates will close. In giant breeds, this could be nearly two years of age.
Conclusion

Getting back to my puppy contract, given the above research, I simply can’t guarantee the puppies I breed will have healthy joints if they are spayed or neutered, especially before the age of two. Whether the puppy’s family decides to keep their dog intact or sterilize him after that age is entirely up to the family. I do an extremely good job of screening the homes that apply for one of my puppies and if they aren’t responsible enough to keep an intact animal, they certainly aren’t responsible enough to deserve one of my precious puppies in the first place.

People who are involved in rescues and shelters may have a different view on this and they are certainly entitled to it. When considering if and when your dog should be spayed or neutered however, it’s important that you make the decision based on facts and try to steer clear of an emotional response that may affect the health and longevity of your dog. It’s really not for me – or your vet – to dictate what you should do with your dog.

Happily, there are alternatives to the complete removal of the sexual organs. Vets are starting to experiment with zinc injections to sterilize male dogs. This leaves about half of the circulating testosterone available to the body. Vasectomies and tubal ligations are also becoming more popular and they have the happy consequence of less interference with the sex hormones – and your dog gets to keep his reproductive organs right where nature intended them to be.

You have a choice in whether and when your dog is spayed or neutered and how important it is to you that his/her sexual organs and hormones remain in place. Once your dog is spayed or neutered, you can’t reverse your decision, so dig a little deeper and you just might find a solution that you and your dog can live with, happily and healthfully.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/spay-neuter-and-joint-disease/
 
#2 ·
As someone that really appreciates the structure and movement of a well put together dog. I cannot help but feel bad for speutered dogs and think what they might have been. ESPECIALLY dogs that were speutered young.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I was familiar with those papers, but, to oversimplify, I was under the impression that most studies were done with Rottweilers, and most problems were with females. And, I believe that Rottie females had a higher incidence of mammary cancer when spayed after the first heat. Other researchers generalized to other breeds - which I disagree with.

I haven't studied the issue, but I haven't seen problems with males [mix breed] neutered at 6 mos. On the other hand, I also haven't seen large dogs [Labs, GSDs, etc., but again, not champion lines] that do NOT have some type of arthritis by 12 yo [Only some of my sample was neutered.] And, I haven't seen the lankiness as a general rule, but I also hadn't seen many dogs neutered at 6 weeks (!) until recent years.

Since my current pet is still ready to hump the right girl, even though he was neutered at 6 mos, and is currently 13 yo (!) ... I personally prefer and suggest neutering :)
 
#4 ·
Well, today we did an ACL repair on an intact 6 year old Boxer. What? Can not be because he is intact!. This is the problem of stating to people that leaving their dog intact, the dog will not have joint problems. Also, during surgery there was arthritis discovered on the joint. The dog was also overweight. I so wanted to take a picture of this dog to post on here but due to privacy laws we can not post pics without owners approval. I am not saying that neutering early does not increase the risk. It is just that I think it is misleading to state that leaving an animal intact, that animal will not get overweight, have joint problems and be disease free. It does happen.

For some reasons obese pets whether intact or speutered are on the increase. It is pretty bad when you have to shave hair from the privates of an animal because that animal is so obese it can not clean itself. Usually females more so than males. I so want to post the picture of the obese dachshund who was fat and intact. He came in because he had sores on the underside of him because of the constant rubbing of the ground when he walked. It hurt me just looking at the sores on his privates. Sometimes these overweight pets need surgery performed on the area to get rid of the fat folds. I always worry when the owner starts bragging about how much their big dog weighs. I immediately think you mean how much your obese/fat dog weighs. Sorry for the rant. That Boxer ACL was probably due to more of the stress put on the dog's joints because of the excess weight more so than that he was intact.

I have stated many times on here that males do not see that much between leaving them intact or neutered but for the females see way to many pyometra and breast cancer for me to leave a female intact that I do not intend to breed. also, I tell owners that leave their animal intact that owner has to be aware and not squeamish of checking and feeling the privates of their pet. This is especially true of the older pet. An owner who frequently checks their pets are going to catch something faster and take care of it before it becomes a big problem. This alone can mean life or death of any pet.
If you leave your male intact to have his prostate checked regularly during the yearly exams. Not for the risk of prostate cancer (which is rare and can happen on neutered animals as well) but to check of enlargement. Enlarged prostates can cause a male dog not to be able to urinate. A non-urinating animal can die.

I would rather believe a study done on forty thousands dogs instead of 1200 of one breed where only 700 responded back to the survey. I also see this more so than any other studies done on a daily basis at work. To say leaving an animal intact will increase life span in my opinion is not a fair statement. I do believe that pedi spays/neuters are not a good thing but till people become honest and do what they agree to, shelters/rescues groups feel the need to do pedi spays/neuters to get better compliance.

The following can be read at http://www.aahanet.org/blog/newstat...04/18/467371/Research-finds-that-neutered-or-spayed-dogs-lead-longer-lives.aspx

After examining 40,139 dog death records spanning a 20-year period, University of Georgia researchers have concluded that spayed or neutered dogs tend to live longer than intact dogs.

The study revealed that sterilized dogs had an average lifespan of 9.4 years, while intact dogs lived 7.9 years on average, according to ScienceDaily.

In addition to highlighting the differing mortality rates between intact and sterilized dogs, the study also showed that these groups of dogs often die from different causes. Sterilized dogs were more likely to die from cancer or autoimmune diseases, while intact dogs tended to die from infectious disease and trauma, researchers reported.

"At the level of the individual dog owner, our study tells pet owners that, overall, sterilized dogs will live longer, which is good to know," said Dr. Kate Creevy, assistant professor of internal medicine at the
University of Georgia College of Veterinary Medicine. "Also, if you are going to sterilize your dog, you should be aware of possible risks of immune-mediated diseases and cancer; and if you are going to keep him or her intact, you need to keep your eye out for trauma and infection."

According to Daniel Promislow, Franklin College genetics professor and co-author of the paper, the study has provided insights that could benefit future research into how reproduction affects human mortality causes.

"When researchers have looked at the effect of survival rates in humans, the results have varied from one study to the next. Our findings suggest that we might get a clearer sense of potential costs of reproduction if we focus on how reproduction affects actual causes of mortality rather than its effect on life span," Promislow said.
 
#6 ·
I am not saying that intact dogs will not have issues... But altered dogs will have more... the angles change.


I have seen more than my share of blown acl/ccls... At the moment they have happened. Far far far and away it has been altered dogs. And in the venues in which I have seen these occur, it intact dogs outnumber speutered dogs by far....
 
#7 ·
For giant breeds this is a huge issue. You should never spay or neuter them prior to 18 to 24 months.Unless for a medical reason

For males
Pros
eliminates the small risk (less than 1 percent) of dying from testicular cancer.
reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes
Cons
if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
triples the risk of hypothyroidism
increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
quadruples the small risk of prostate cancer
doubles the small risk of urinary tract cancers
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

For females
Pros
if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

Cons
if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
triples the risk of hypothyroidism
increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
causes urinary “spay incontinence” in female dogs
increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections
increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
doubles the small risk of urinary tract tumors
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


Quote:
“The researchers suggest a cause-and-effect relationship, as sex hormones are known to influence the maintenance of skeletal structure and mass, and also because their findings showed an inverse relationship between time of exposure to sex hormones and risk of osteosarcoma.”

Quote:
“Given the poor prognosis of osteosarcoma and its frequency in many breeds, spay/neuter of immature dogs in the medium/large, large, and giant breeds is apparently associated with a significant and elevated risk of death due to osteosarcoma.”

With all the dogs I have ever had in 30yrs have yet to ever have a ops, my dog knocked up the neighbors.

If need I can post a lot of supporting video's and articles that backup what I have just posted.

One questions though why do some states that require a quota of rabies vacs, only accept spay or neutered to go toward that quota?
 
#10 ·
I am not anti Neuter per say... But based on what I have seen in over 30 years in performance dogs and my personal experience with the four dogs I have neutered (out of 40 give or take) I am NOT altering any more of my dogs..
 
#11 ·
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-news/2014/04/27/406302/Cancer-tops.htm
Cancer tops list of causes of death for Taiwan dogs: study
TAIPEI, Taiwan -- Cancer topped the 10 most common causes of death for dogs in Taiwan, according to a study released by a senior veterinarian yesterday.




Among cancers, skin and soft-tissue cancer are at the top of the list, followed by breast, reproductive system and digestive system cancers, according to the study released by National Taiwan University (NTU) Veterinary Hospital head Liu Chen-hsuan (劉振軒).

The top causes of death after cancer are heart disease, kidney failure, neurological disease, trauma, digestive system disease, multiple organ failure, natural causes, respiratory diseases and liver-related diseases, the study determined.

Liu said the study shows that the top 10 causes of death for canines are very similar to the same list for humans in Taiwan, where cancer has been the number one cause of death for more than 30 years straight.
He noted that the life span for dogs has lengthened in the last few decades. Before, the average life expectancy for dogs stood around eight to nine years, but now more and more dogs are getting older than 15 or 16.

A longer life span for dogs means they are more inclined to develop chronic illnesses such as cancer, Liu said.


I found this article interesting because in Taiwan, I do not believe they neuter their animals as much as we do here in the US.
 
#14 ·
Well, there is always seems to be a fault with a study.
First need to look at the things that were tossed out of a study because it did not fit what the person was needing to find out.
With this one here is the weak link. they did not take into account when the dog was neutered.. A dog could be left intact for 10 years, get neutered and be considered neutered at time of death. I find this to be a fault with this study. The fault with the Rottweiler study, they did not include the dogs who died at the universities. I think all dogs should have been included in the study.

this site is just full of studies of hip dysplasia in dogs. sometimes I just have to wonder about some studies. Like the study done on greyhound/GSD mixes.
http://www.joint-health-for-dogs.com/hip-dysplasia-research.html


I am not saying that pedi spays or early speuters do not cause problems. I do agree that a dog needs to grown before the surgery takes place. This is especially true if a large breed. Hip disease according to these studies are inherited and food intake affects the outcome also. Even to when the pup is born determines an increase in HD.
 
#15 ·
Yet there are no real studies that show any real health benefits to speutering.


And to speak on the "trauma" thing..... People assume that is because intact dogs roam.

But folks do not consider that most working, herding, farm, hunting dogs, etc remain intact.

Dogs that work for a living have a MUCH higher chance of being killed accidentally.

There are a hundred ways for a dog to die in the woods. on the farm, etc. And age often catches up with a dog. It comes to a point he is a little slower, does not react as quickly, etc and is still working.

A LOT of working dogs die doing what they do...
 
#16 ·
Don't know, but maybe I just see a bigger difference with, the type of breeds I prefer, as you can most of the time see a huge difference in them when they are spay/neutered young. Newfoundland, English Mastiff, St. Bernard, and other Molosser breeds, always seem to be taller and have more brittle bone issues.

Then again I am talking about a type of dog not overall. The breeds I am talking about don't mature till 2 or 2.5yrs in some lines 3yrs. Also sadly they have generally a shorter lifespan.
 
#21 ·
I have never owned a neutered male and probably never will unless it was a health issue. Susie was my first spayed female and I never thought too much about it and got her spayed at six months like the Vet recommended. Since then I have realized from reading that I should have left her till she was older as she is a Bernese cross. I have fought with her weight all her life, she is ten, and has arthritis really bad now. Kris, I waited till after she had her first season and got her spayed at 13 months. I really watch her weight and will make sure she does not get too fat. My dogs never roam free and I have never had an issue competing in Agility with Remmy even though he is intact as is my other male.
 
#24 ·
I just know we will never agree on this. I just know I can not tell somebody not to neuter their dog because it will live longer. I just do not see it. I see intact females die because the pyometra they have made them so sick they ended up dying. The owner not being able to afford the cost of the operation and euthanizes their dog. The dog needing a C-section because a puppy is stuck and the owners opting not to do the operation. Mom and pup dies. The elderly male dog who's prostrate is so swollen it can not pee. The owner opting to bring the dog in daily for catheterization just so the dog can relieve itself. Eventually the catheter can no longer pass and the owner euthanizes the dog. The owner did not want to have a neutered dog. At the same time this is going, another dog, a springer is diagnosed with the same condition. the owner neuters the dog and two years later the dog is doing great. Just getting more white on the face.

Intact females having mammary cancer. sometimes the cancer has spread to the lungs. Pyometra very common. Last week a lady paid 1500 for a pyometra surgery and after care. the dog was a 7 year old mix breed. She never got the dog spayed because she said she never had the money to do so. The surgery was done at the E-vet. She brought the dog to our clinic for after care. I think a regular spay would have been a lot cheaper. I see pyo all the time. I think we see so many because we are a walk-in clinic and other vets who are a solo practice will send them over to us for the surgery.



When other countries that typically do not neuter their pets do studies on HD it is genetics they point the finger to. It is also how the pups are raised and some studies event suggest a higher incident on the month the pups were born in. To me these studies make sense because it happens no matter what the breed. When studies on done on different breeds of dogs about neutering the results are not the same. We have done stem cells and PRP on intact animals because the owners did not want to do ACL surgery on them just yet. I see weight being a big factor on ACL surgeries.

For bone cancer. I see both being diagnosed with this disease. Rotts topping this list. Having to tell that young couple their Rott puppy had bone cancer was the hardest thing. I can still hear the woman just sobbing. The couple just thought the dog broke its leg and it would be ok with a splint on the leg. That day sucked.

Working at the vet clinics this is what I see: Hormones that are a friend to a young dog become that dog's foe when it gets older.
 
#25 ·
No we will not.. And while I do not agree with you, I do respect your experiences.


A few things.

On Pyometra.... I know you say it is common... But I have heard far more about it since I joined this forum, than I had in the 40 something years prior.... I have personally known two bitches that got it. And have known of two others. That is out of thousands of dogs. I have heard the common thing so much on here that I asked my vet about it. He has had his practice at the same location since 1975 (He is OLD) he was the second vet in our area and has always been the preferred vet of local breeders. He deals with a LOT of intact dogs. I would venture based on his clients, he has far more intact dogs than spayed. When I asked him about Pyometra, he laughed and said, just because it is on the internet does not mean it is true. Then he chuckled again and said, Pyometra the scourge of the internet. I pushed him harder... He says yea he sees it.. A case or two a year. He said have you, had it with all the bitches you have owned. I said, you have treated every dog I have owned since I was 7 years old. He said so what, a dozen bitches... I said 16, he made a comment about him being old. He says yea... Stop worrying about it. And you might have a different opinion. but this is a man that I have trusted with my dogs health and well being for 40 years.


I agree on mammary cancer. But if it spreads, the owner is not paying attention to their dog. It is easy to see their is a problem early on.

I also agree on weight being an issue on ACL and other muscular and skelatal injuries in PET dogs. The most common thing I say to people that come to me with a dog that have never competed seriously and want me to help them get their dog in prime condition is, first thing we have to do is we have to take some weight off the dog. Long term competitors tend to know how to keep a dog in condition. Many pet dogs are disgustingly fat. But my experience and where I have seen it so much are not in fat pet dogs. I have seen it in well conditioned sport dogs in working weight.

And if a dog develops a prostate problem and they do not neuter, they are dumb. That is a legitimate reason.

I have a bitch that is about to be 13 (or 12) I need to go look. No issues. I have had 16 bitches that lived their lives intact. No cancers, no Pyometra, no hormone related issues. My intact bitches have lived from 12 to 16 years old. ( one bitch was killed in a fight with a hog at 7 but that is what it is. She was not a catch dog and split off the other bay dogs that were on multiple average sized hogs. She broke off on a big boar and before I could get to her or even get a dog going in her direction to back her up, she was gone. I cried hard that day ) I have had 26 dogs (males) Again lived to be 12 to 17 years old. ( I lost an all black B&T coonhound to the son of a guest on our lease. He was 16 and saw the black color and thought it was a hog. They got me going on a wild goose chase and got the kid and his dad off the property before they told me BlackJack was dead. They were afraid I might not react too well. I cried that day. But BlackJack was 13 and still hunting.) I have had not testicular cancer, prostate issues ( I know the do happen) or other hormone related issues.

My four intact dogs died at 4,6,7, and 9. Three cancers and an odd auto immune issue.

And expand that to the people I hunt with, family, people I compete with, people I am in organizations with etc. Discounting the people I know that are involved with breeds such as bulldogs, Cavs, Cockers, etc that have a BUNCH of issues. The people I associate with experiences are not really different than mine.

Most of my intact dogs have just died of old age. Meaning their bodies were giving up, bladder and bowel control gone, dementia, broken down. I have been criticized at times about allowing dogs to work or hunt too far into old age. Yea something can happen. But some people do not know what it is like to be loading up your dogs to go do something, and your old dogs are acting like puppies in anticipation. Looking at you, and with every amount of body language they have, saying yea I am ready to go, I want to load up, lets go get em, etc. Frankly I think it is harder on an old dog to be left behind. If they go doing what they love.... Well...

I have a friend that lost her ACD at 16 a couple of years back. This dog is one of the most titled ACDs ever in the US. He had won in every venue he ever competed in and had nothing else to prove. She was still running the dog in herding trials because he loved it. Well she entered him in a weekend trial. He Q'd on every run he did, ranked in the top three on both Saturday and Sunday... She woke up Tuesday morning and found him dead on his bed... She started second guessing herself. Felt she had pushed him. I talked to her a lot about it. I said he died happy. He got to work two days just before he died. Better than him breaking down and not being able to hold his bowels and pee and you having to take him in to put him down. He died a champions death.
 
#28 ·
And in my county... Intact dogs are 40 bucks a year for intact. Altered was 10 but they just upped it to 20. I am not interested in saving a few bucks a year at what I feel is a risk of shortening my dogs lives. At three dogs it is 60 bucks extra... If I had 20 dogs right now, I would not think of considering it.


As for skunky urine... My dogs pee outside, I do not smell it. as for crate and rotate.... No big deal. It is 6 weeks a year with the Lab. The hell Bitch's last heat was October. Her heat before that was 11 months prior. She is CLOSE to being done. If she comes in again, I will be surprised. Even if she does... that is still only 17 percent of the year.... I am not willing to compromise health for that.



As for focusing on dogs and condition. My dogs, most of the ones I have owned anyway, come from great breeders and great lines. I spend a LOT of time researching that. And my dogs are always in TOP condition and have always been. Even my old bitch does 20 minutes a day on the treadmills at 9 miles an hour 15 percent incline at a resistance of four.... She ROCKSs. ..She is old but I would still trust my life with her if someone attacked our home. When I am gone with Merlin, she is the house guardian. If I thought for a second she could no longer handle it, I would add another dog.
 
#30 ·
that is still only 17 percent of the year..
Just going to point out. . .1/6 of one's life is not an inconsequencial amount of time. It may not severely impact your/her life due to your/her lifestyle, but for many people/dogs, that's a serious quality-of-life consideration. I would not call 17% "only" anything.
 
#31 ·
Yeah, I'm totally willing to deal with a heat or two if there's even a little evidence suggesting that spaying her early is going to up the risk of HD or osteosarcoma etc. As a giant breed, it just makes sense to me that she's going to need more time for her growth plates to fuse and to use those hormones to grow properly and mature. I have, however, educated myself on the symptoms of pyo and we DO plan to get her spayed when she's two.

Incidentally, we just went through her first heat and there was literally no mess. Apparently she comes from a long line of tidy bitches, which is a-okay by me!
 
#37 · (Edited)
Having an intact female that you do sports with is a huge pain, I'm finding. I had to decide if I wanted to take my agility class because my pup is around time to start her first heat. She's about 10 1/2 months, and still hasn't went into heat. I'm fairly certain it's going to start right in the middle of my classes or right before her spay at 1 year (contract). Maybe it wont, but it sure is a pain to worry about.

Working at a vet clinic, I've seen both ends of things... but I have a hard time saying "more ACL tears in neutered dogs" because I see way more neutered dogs than intact ones, not to mention the weight factor. Not very many intact females come around our office, and the ones that do arrive with pyo or mammary cancer. Maybe the risk is less with a healthy line of dogs, I don't know.

As for crate and rotate, that would not be a possible thing in the house I currently live in. I have a very open floor plan, so everyone would have to be actually crated. I did it with my 2 fosters and my puppy. It was absolutely the worst (they barked the whole time since we were home and the other dog was out), and I couldn't live like that. Not everyone can do crate and rotate so easily. I don't ever plan on owning intact males and females together thankfully. I've always had girls only and will probably keep it that way (yes, even intact girls).

I got my one female spayed at 4 years old. She already had back and neck problems, but since getting her spayed she had a very hard time keeping weight off, possible thyroid issues (though that might have been age), and UTIs. I think it's a really hard decision to make with the girls. Alright I'm done rambling now.
 
#40 ·
Having an intact female that you do sports with is a huge pain, I'm finding. I had to decide if I wanted to take my agility class because my pup is around time to start her first heat. She almost 10 1/2 months, and still hasn't went into heat. I'm fairly certain it's going to start right in the middle of my classes or right before her spay at 1 year (contract). Maybe it wont, but it sure is a pain to worry about.

Working at a vet clinic, I've seen both ends of things... but I have a hard time saying "more ACL tears in neutered dogs" because I see way more neutered dogs than intact ones, not to mention the weight factor. Not very many intact females come around our office, and the ones that do arrive with pyo or mammary cancer. Maybe the risk is less with a healthy line of dogs, I don't know.

As for crate and rotate, that would not be a possible thing in the house I currently live in. I have a very open floor plan, so everyone would have to be actually crated. I did it with my 2 fosters and my puppy. It was absolutely the worst (they barked the whole time since we were home and the other dog was out), and I couldn't live like that. Not everyone can do crate and rotate so easily. I don't ever plan on owning intact males and females together thankfully. I've always had girls only and will probably keep it that way (yes, even intact girls).

I got my one female spayed at 4 years old. She already had back and neck problems, but since getting her spayed she had a very hard time keeping weight off, possible thyroid issues (though that might have been age), and UTIs. I think it's a really hard decision to make with the girls. Alright I'm done rambling now.
Keep active in agility and it will JUMP out at you that altered dogs are far far more prone to acl injury.
 
#38 ·
I have *definitely* had more weight issues with my spayed girls. It actually drives me nuts. I don't regret spaying them at all, and I'm never going to want to deal with a mixed gender household with dogs of both genders. I could probably prevent pregnancy, but it's a pain and I don't want to deal with it.

I am really tired of my 2 year old healthy, active, high energy, gets more exercise than is probably sane, dog getting fat if I look at her sideways, though. She does better on raw, but she still can't eat very much at all without instantly losing her ribs under a layer of fat.
 
#44 ·
But an owned, supervised, dog that is going to get knocked up while inside a car, or on a leash, because it went into heat because male dogs turn into ferocious beasts or a heat that sneaks up on an owner isn't debatable. It's just *SILLY*.
I didn't actually argue, this time, that a dog may get pregnant for any of these reasons. I'm not even thinking of pregnancy right now. At this point I'm arguing quality of life due to suspension of normal activities while she's in heat, which is an actual thing that people with intact dogs have talked about. I don't think it's worth it. Others might. That's all I'm saying this time.
 
#54 ·
I am aware that some of them reservations have issues. But you are not moving there either. And if anyone did move to a place with street dogs. Disease exposure risk is the real concern.

And multiple people have told you you do not have to greatly alter your dogs day to day activities when in heat. This quality of life issue is in your head it does not exist.

Making up reasons that are just not there. Like Bringing a football to a basketball game.
 
#46 ·
Well, um, I guess you can go tell the Panamanian street dogs that they don't mob the houses with dogs in heat inside. I should have my cousin send pictures :p.
 
#52 ·
We are not in panama. You are not either. I have not been to panama. But I have been to assorted third world countries I am well aware of street dog problems.

But even bringing up panama on this topic is completely off the charts and illogical. Aside from possible a couple of members here that may live in parts of Asia or other developing countries none of us are ever going to deal with street dog problems in the US Canada most of Europe etc. Unless you are planning a move to panama. You are not either
 
#47 ·
I swore to myself that I wasn't going to talk about spay/neuter on the internet anymore, but I just attended an interesting seminar on this topic and so I'm going to make a few comments (without, I should add, having read any of the rest of this thread). Some of my comments and data will not be citable because they are information/statements provided by the presenters in the course of their lecture, which were a veterinary theriogenologist, nutritionist, oncologist, and orthopedic surgeon. I didn't know the orthopedist, but the others are specialists I have known for years and the oncologist in particular is one of the most brilliant, skilled critical thinkers I have ever met.

I'll put the td;dr version here right away: 1. There is evidence that early altering is correlated with an increased risk of HD and cruciate disease, but more study needs to be done to tease out whether this is an association or a cause 2. There is not evidence that S/N significantly changes cancer risks 3. Pediatric S/N presents a huge nutritional challenge due to the nutritional needs for growth now being at odds with decreased caloric needs 4. The decision to S/N should be made on an individual basis, and if an owner elects to S/N it's a good idea to wait until the growth phase is complete (which will vary by breed).

Mainly, I'm going to talk about the the UC Davis Golden Retriever study. The nice thing about this study is that it had some strengths that haven't been present in previous studies looking at this issue, but also some pretty big weaknesses and some of their conclusions (about cancer) were sketchy. The entire study is freely available for anyone to read on the internet: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0055937 I personally take generalizing a study done exclusively on one breed and generalizing it to all dogs with a grain of salt, but unfortunately it's also one of the best ways to eliminate some confounders.

As far as orthopedics go, the study does provide good evidence that there is a correlation between early altering and an increased risk of both hip dysplasia and cruciate disease. The overall risk was still pretty low, and there was more of an effect for males than females. The biggest weakness is that it is a retrospective study, a biased population group, no control, but it is a good launching point. Right now there is a prospective study being undertaken called the Golden Retriever Lifetime Study (http://www.caninelifetimehealth.org/) that will follow dogs throughout their lifetime, which is sort of exciting. There are a handful of other studies that have looked at orthopedic disease that had the same results, but unless people want to read through more studies that already agree with them I'm not going to bother to cite.

As far as cancers go, if you read the numbers carefully (not just the conclusions) the data doesn't really support the claims in the UCD study specifically, and a couple of other studies about cancer and S/N have been either too flawed to really draw conclusions (including the famous and much cited rottweiler study) or the increased risks have been extremely over-exaggerated by looking at comparisons of risks rather than what the actual risks are: That is, saying a 4x increased risk sounds way scarier and seems more significant than saying a .06% risk increases to a 0.24% risk. Specifically with regards to prostate cancer: there IS an increased risk of prostate cancer in neutered males, but as it turns out it is almost exactly the same risk as testicular cancer in intact males (both less than 3%), so that's kind of a wash (although, to be fair, testicular cancer is much easier to treat). I'm not really going to argue this point back and forth, because people's opinions are what they are. Just saying that the current data doesn't really support making decisions about S/N based solely on cancer risks and a lot of claims made about the data and studies out there are fairly flawed or really, really over-exaggerate what correlations or increased risks might be suggested.

Oh I am going to make one more point about cancer. It's become fashionable to dismiss the risk of mammary cancer in intact females, and one of the claims is that in countries where dogs are not routinely S/N, they don't see it. Except they do - in this study done in Sweden, by 10 years old there was a 13% incidence of mammary cancer in intact bitches. Thirteen percent! Which far and away exceeds the risk of cancers that people think they are preventing by not S/N (most under 2%, by the Davis study and other data). If I could change ONE thing about people's fear of cancer, it would be to look at the actual risk of a cancer instead of odds ratios or relative risks. But anyway, onwards.

The nutrition stuff was probably the most interesting to me. Because S/N does significantly decrease caloric needs (~25%) regardless of the age of S/N, but these pediatrics are also at a point where their nutritional needs are different than adults. So it's very difficult to make sure all of their needs are being met without making them fat. And then being overweight increases the risks of other problems like orthopedic problems, which then confounds the issue of trying to tease out what the actual causes of any particular problem is. I have never been a fan of pediatric S/N anyway, but this was probably the most compelling part of the seminar for me to put the final nail in the coffin.

The theriogenologist mostly talked about population issues - shelters an early S/N. That is what it is, I wish it could be different for individual dogs, but I think they just have to do it. Interestingly, there was a survey done by someone, I can't find it in my notes now but I think it was Banfield, that showed that some huge percentage of pet owners (like, something around 20 or 25%) essentially understand nothing about canine reproduction, heat cycles, what a heat cycle looks like, how often dogs come into heat, etc. Like, kind of ridiculously basic stuff. Also, a very significant percentage of people do not ever get around to S/N their shelter pet if it wasn't sent home altered. So, you know, that combination is where oops litters come from. On a population basis for John and Jane Q Public, it is what it is until our cultural attitudes about pet ownership change.

Anyway, it was an interesting and timely talk. Maybe it will comfort people to know that this stuff is being taken seriously by at least some segments of the veterinary community, maybe you'll just want to argue with me about cancer (I'm looking at you, Johnny :p), but I do think things will change towards waiting until that growth phase is done and I also think there is a shift coming towards veterinarians being more accepting and less judgey about the choice not to S/N.
 
#51 ·
I am not going to argue with you. I respect the heck out of you and wish you would hurry up and move down here. My vet is old. That being said I am not going to agree on the cancer issues. My experience and investigations point a different direction.


But that's okay. I am going to continue doing what works best for me. I am not telling anyone that they have to do it my way. I am also not in favor of shelters changing their practices. There is no real logical way to do it. And tends to be little after placement support for first time dog owners. I do 2ish that breed specific rescues would change and think it could be done successfully but after placement support would need to be there. If we place an ACD with a first time dog owner(rare but we have done it) or place a dog with a first time ACD owner. We assign them a mentor from the club. And that mentor is their first call with issues and the mentor is supposed to call and check on them to make sure things are going okay.

I will also continue to voice my experiences opinions and knowledge on such threads.
 
#48 ·
I have two intact males and had no problem keeping them separate from Kris when she had her first season. Why do people assume all males are going to go nuts when a female is in season and do anything to get to them? I don't doubt there are some males that act badly but mine never have. I have had male and female Scottish Terriers and Greyhounds when we were breeding and showing and never had any "oops" litters, never found it that hard. It is not that they were not interested but keeping them separate was no problem.
 
#49 ·
This has been my experience. I mean, honestly. There's interest there, but they aren't clawing through doors, busting through windows, and becoming maniacal. My dogs react more strongly to rabbits and squirrels than they do to a bitch in heat. :/
 
#50 ·
TE=Willowy;3191282]Ihappening ctually argue, this time, that a dog may get pregnant for any of these reasons. I'm not even thinking of pregnancy right now. At this point I'm arguing quality of life due to suspension of normal activities while she's in heat, which is an actual thing that people with intact dogs have talked about. I don't think it's worth it. Others might. That's all I'm saying this time.[/QUOTE]

Other than in house rotations. Which are no big deal. And do not affect the dogs quality of life. I have NEVER changed activities. Other than I would not take an in heat bitch hunting. Heck my wife walks Keely when she is in heat no problem. We take her in the care no problem. Take her places no problem. I can and do walk her and Merlin on leash together when she is in heat. With both leashes in the same hand. it
As Capt said. Standing heat is only 3 to 5 days in the cycle. Other than that she is NOT Being bred. It is not happening the bitch will tell the dog off and if he pushes it she will rip him a new one. Males know this and will back off. They will not react with aggression because that is not the frame of mind they are In.

And you act as if breeding happens instantly. You would be Lucky if The dog penetrated within 15 minutes. Usually longer. Sometimes you pair perfectly healthy dogs in prime condition and it takes them an hour and a half or more to tie .

I have laughed time after time at your comments when I am around a breeding taken place.


So on the off chance that you are out with you in standing heat bitch and a strange dog approaches It is not going to breed you dog immediately. He is not going to be aggressive. And you have ample time to move away.
 
#53 ·
The reservations have the same kind of dog problems. Not that I plan to move to/near a reservation either. . .but it's not only a problem in other countries. Mainly, I mentioned that because it was sounding like the claim was made that dogs don't act like that. And they definitely do, under certain circumstances.

There are really totally different perpectives. I WOULD consider crating/rotating to be a significant quality-of-life issue. You don't, obviously. I consider freeing a female from the issue of cycle-related hormonal unpleasantness to be a blessing. You don't. Even if spaying reduced a female's lifespan (which I don't believe), I would still consider the improvement in quality-of-life to be worth it. You wouldn't. It's a whole different thing.

I do think that letting them grow up first is probably a good idea, when possible. But longer than that? Nope, not worth it to me.
 
#56 ·
The ease and ability of people to keep their intact dogs from breeding is super contextual. For an educated "dog person" who knows what to expect and what to do, it really shouldn't be a big deal.

For that 20-25% of average dog owners who don't even understand what a heat cycle IS and what to watch for, the challenge isn't keeping dogs apart. It's even knowing that there is a time when they need to be kept apart and what that time looks like, how often it occurs, etc.

I've been doing some volunteer veterinary work on some of our state reservations recently, and the cultural attitudes about dogs is generally worlds apart from what most of us are used to. People absolutely love their dogs, but it's just a whole different value system. A lot of outdoor only dogs, many of them free roaming at least part of the time. Plenty of stories about how all the neighborhood male dogs disappeared for a week so everyone knew someone's dog was in heat. Lots of unplanned litters. People for the most part are receptive to S/N it if it's affordable, which the group I'm working with is doing, along with wellness clinics. That's the kind of situation where the decision to S/N is really more about herd health and population control than individual health of any one dog especially because there are so many other short term health considerations (heartworm disease, hit by car and other traumatic injuries, infectious diseases) those dogs face, and we pretty much recommend it for every dog that shows up.

Unfortunately for me, I can foresee this being a deal breaker for me in the future with shelter dogs. There was a puppy surrendered at the last reservation wellness clinic I worked that I would have taken home in a heartbeat, just a lovely little husky mix that would have been a fantastic skijor dog, but at 12 weeks old she had already been spayed. That's just not going to work for me. I do plan to continue to S/N my dogs in the future, but depending on their age/size it's going to be at least a year.
 
#57 ·
Most of the agility dogs I know are neutered. Even the ones owned by long time 'dog people'. A lot of it is simply due to breeder and rescue contracts and nothing else. I do wish there was more leniency that way. On the other hand I understand why breeders want to keep closer tabs on their puppies they sell.