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Discussion Starter #1
OK..It has finally happend to ME... In the park here in town. I just want to stomp this woman into the GROUND......

I was at the park working Atka off leash and on (recalls and remote downs and sits and stands and waits etc.). When the follwoing scenario starts she is off leash in a down and wait... and I recall her to me and snap the leash on. She looks away from me and I ask for her attention (she gives it) and a woman says to me:

"Excuse me! Beautiful Shepherd you have there! So well behaved"

Me: "thank you!"

Her: "Is your dog a male? Is he fixed?"

Me: "No. She is a female and she is spayed"

Woman appears crestfallen and says, "I am looking for someone with a male shepherd so I can breed my feamle. She is 22 months. She has AKC papers. I actually have TWO Female Shepherds and both have papers. I have 10 kids and I want them to have this experience.."

Me: (look of :eek: on my face), "Is your female titled and OFA tested?"

Her: "What is OFA... and what do you mean 'titled.'"

Me: :rolleyes: "Well, have you titled her in the AKC show ring or titled her in working classes or competitions such as obedience, schutzhund, herding,?"

Her: "Why would I do that? I just want the kids to experience puppies."

Me: "Why not Foster a pregnant dog then? Breeding dogs is a committment to the betterment of the breed and it typically costs more to breed than you get for the puppies."

Her: "I just want the kids (yadda yadda yadda) and I hope to break even on the puppies."

Me: "Don't breed your dog. Back yard Breeding is not good for the dog.. and you are talking about a breed with a lot of physical problems. They need to be tested and titled.."

Her: (Obviously Deaf) "But it would be so good for the kids... I have three dogs but the male is neutered. I got him and he already was. It is too bad. He is a nice dog. I live at the end of a dead end road and we have a bank of kennels but the dogs are never in them.. we just let them run around. They are nice dogs and they all have papers. Too bad yours is fixed.... "

Me: "Take a dog you have and spay her and have the kids train her as a 4H project." And I quickly walk away...

Her: calling after me "I hope I see you here more often. I would like to bring my dog here so you can meet her. She should have one litter...."

I silently scream... ARRRRGGHHHHHHHHH.... (Me walking away FAST with my dog).

But.. you KNOW this woman is going to breed that Untested GSD to doG knows what male with "papers" if she finds one...

I keep telling myself to relax.. you cannot fix stupid..... can not can not...

Well the good of all this is about 7 of her ten kids came over and surrounded Atka and Atka stayed in a sit, stayed relatively focused on me, and let them pet her and had a blast and DID NOT JUMP UP <<<<<<<< Please Read this CP and Carla! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!! Atka did not TRY to jump up! YOUR ADVICE IS FINALLY WORKING!!! And she is so well socialized she was just luvin' these kids all around her pressing in. Her tail was sweeping the grass and her toungue was out and she was having a BALL!

It is good they like dogs aecause they are going to ahve a lot more of them.. and I am guessing I will see the ad.. "AKC German Shepherd Puppies. Large Boned. $150.." I fiigure I will see it in the mid to late summer. :mad:
 

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Ah, Welcome to my world. I can't tell you how often I have had a conversation just like this one. Hey! don't you look for the potential mate to your dog every time you visit a park or pet store? Sheesh some folks have such high standards. :cool:;) Hopefully what you said will at least sink in later, though I doubt it. just makes me crazy. :mad:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
She said, "I will be able to do that OFA thing. How much is it. $100?"

Oh good golly.. save me...
 

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Then I wonder if she "did the OFA thing" and got bad results. Would she still have bred the dog for money? It is worse to know better and do anyway then to be ignorant and do, when it comes to breeding dogs. IMO The problem is, for me, I don't think too many people can use the excuse of ignorance anymore. Too much public information. You have to see some of it. It is what people chose to do after that shows the content of their character.
 

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I think you missed a great opportunity to have Atka earn her first stud fee. Not many GSD bitches can claim that distinction.
 

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I'm curious as to why this person, or most dog owners, should know any different? How would they have been exposed to the information you have about responsible breeding?

As the president of my dog park, I probably know 100 or more dog owners well and many more casually. I may have encountered two people who know what a BYB or a "reputable" breeder was, even though most knew of the relationship between puppy mills and pet shops. I doubt any of them know what an OFA is.

Of course being dog park users none of the dogs are show dogs and none of the people involved in showing, agility, or field trials, but they are representative of the overwhelming majority of conscientious dog owners.

Was then nature of you conversation such that the person is likely to be inspired to investigate responsible breeding?
 

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KaseyT, Has a good point! I never heard of the term BYB, "break your back", until I came on this forum, and several 100 post later, still have not been kicked off may I proudly say.
And for the lovely and highly intelligent Elana56, that's one heck of a dog you have. I'm surprised you and your dog went to a place like that where you more then likely to run into people like this and maybe worst.
You would have been proud of my dog, the female, went out back in the forest area after the blizzard had just subsided, and the snow was taller then she was and she still refused to let pick her up on the return trip. Now that really earns my respect, she does not need to wait until some guy helps her out, that reminds me of some one else:D take care, good post!

Oh, she is sleeping right next to me as I type this post, she is really tired! She got a bully bone tonight.
 

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Of course being dog park users none of the dogs are show dogs and none of the people involved in showing, agility, or field trials, but they are representative of the overwhelming majority of conscientious dog owners.

Huh? Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I know several people that take their show dogs to dog parks.
 

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I never know what to say to people like this! Granted I hear it most often at work so I really have to be polite about it even though I want to say "PLEASE just do some research and do not breed your dog that probably came from a puppymill anyway!"

We had this poor couple learn the hard way recently and it was a heartbreaking situation. They seem to have done everything right too (as far as treatment of the dog - not necessarily a good candidate for breeding). It was their husky's 2nd litter and she was 4 years old. They ended up coming in as an emergency because she went suddenly downhill after a long labor. We were about to do an emergency spay because she had a massive infection and she just crashed. It was heartbreaking for all of us and the family. They are now hand raising 5 puppies and lost their beloved dog.

The people were very sweet, but were wishing they hadn't bred their dog. Not that this couldn't potentially happen to someone doing it the right way, but it would be less likely if they had done a lot more prenatal care and check ups which were not done. It's really too bad.
 

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You should give her the radiographs of a puppy Molly Graf (of Eichenluft) rescued....he has NO hip sockets. None. They seriously aren't even there.

She can't believe this puppy is exhibiting no symptoms of pain, let alone running.
 

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Bot much??
 

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Discussion Starter #12
This was at the TOWN park, NOT a dog park. I do not go to Dog Parks.

The conversation was edited... other things were said. I always try to educate....

The point is I TRIED to talk to this woman about responsible breeding and, well, the converstaion went back to "Experience for her kids..." and they are "nice dogs" and "they have papers" and you "must know someone with an unfixed male..." I can talk to a DESK and get as far....

Of course, I have been in the animal business and breeding animals for a number of years (or used to when I was farming and had a cattery). I also have some back ground in biology and genetics (academically). Responsible breeding is aimed at improvement for a purpose. I explained this to this lady last night.. but I could have spoken to a stone.. LOL

She asked about Atka's background and I told her the breeder had two pups that were going to be shown but decided that the cost of showing was going to limit this to one pup. I bought "the other one.." and spayed her. The woman could not BELIEVE I spayed her.... but I told her I was not interested in titling her when I bought her and if I ever DO decide to go that route there will be other dogs. :)

Meanwhile, I think I will see if OFA and the vet will just do them ol' xray thingies for $100....
 

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I don't understand the remarks it's good for the kids. After having 10 kids I would think depending on the spread of kid births a lot of the kids already know about the miracle of births, puppy or otherwise. I personally think that decades ago 10 kids in a family was a necessary evil, but not now. I think the owner is trying to have the same program with dog as her own personal birthing choices were, I do believe in the spaying and neutering of people also, and this woman would be high on that list. I know that sounds terrible, but that's just my attitude.
 

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I never know what to say to people like this! Granted I hear it most often at work so I really have to be polite about it even though I want to say "PLEASE just do some research and do not breed your dog that probably came from a puppymill anyway!"
LOL I get pretty evil about this at work. When someone mentions breeding I very politely list out all the costs of doing a proper breeding and whelping :) .

Let me tell you, after you give the rundown for pre-natal checks (especially the health testing), ultrasound, extra food the bitch needs, possibility of emergency C-section, possibility of losing the bitch, post-natal care, cost of puppy exams, first shots, and deworming most people aren't as interested.

I don't worry about scaring away a good breeder because they will know all of this stuff anyway. Nor do I comment on the quality of their dog because it will either go in one ear and out the other or make them stop listening all together. People like this all believe their dog is perfect so nothing about the quality of the dog or breeding for the betterment of the breed changes their minds, BUT hit them in the pocketbook and they pay attention.

It's like the lady saying she was looking at OFA testing and wondering about it for $100. I'd have mentioned that I don't know the cost of submitting to OFA but that just the x-rays will run into the $300 range and that generally the dog must be under sedation to have them done. That's when they start to pay attention. Or mention that first shots are about $25 a pup, plus the office visit fees. With a big litter that could be another $300 right there. Then there is always the cost of the ultrasound, again in the $200-300 range, and an emergency c-section could run in the $1000+ range. If you can make them realize that having a litter could literally cost thousands of dollars even if it's only one pup and that they will never be able to make back that money or even break even it's not as tempting.

I get a little more forceful with someone who wants to breed a pit bull type. I always suggest they go look at a local shelter because all they will see there are pit bulls. It doesn't work as well as a suggestion for small dog owners because they actually get adopted out around here pretty quickly.
 

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i don't understand the remarks it's good for the kids. After having 10 kids i would think depending on the spread of kid births a lot of the kids already know about the miracle of births, puppy or otherwise. I personally think that decades ago 10 kids in a family was a necessary evil, but not now. I think the owner is trying to have the same program with dog as her own personal birthing choices were, i do believe in the spaying and neutering of people also, and this woman would be high on that list. I know that sounds terrible, but that's just my attitude.
*loud applause*
 

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I don't understand the remarks it's good for the kids. After having 10 kids I would think depending on the spread of kid births a lot of the kids already know about the miracle of births, puppy or otherwise.
This cracked me up.

I think the best way to deter irresponsible breeders is to mention the necessary costs. Forget OFA, CERF, titling and all that jazz. She's not going to do them, even if they cost $100 each. It's just not needed to demonstrate "the miracle of birth". Instead, go into the costs that she will inevitably have to deal with. The cost of vaccinations, food for the bitch and for the pups, toys, pre- and post-natal care, emergency care in the case of a stuck pup and so on. People who are looking for studs -- that they can't recognise -- in a town park don't give two hoots about genetic testing. It's not as if certifying one parent makes the litter safe from HD anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Oh I would have gone into costs but in all honesty when you have been tuned out by ignorance followed by stupidity.. there is little left.

Ignorance is not knowing. We all suffer from this. We aren't born knowing stuff.

Stupidity is the choice to remain ignorant. That is what I was up against. She "knew" she could do it 'cheaper..' regardless of the facts....
 

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This cracked me up.

I think the best way to deter irresponsible breeders is to mention the necessary costs. Forget OFA, CERF, titling and all that jazz. She's not going to do them, even if they cost $100 each. It's just not needed to demonstrate "the miracle of birth". Instead, go into the costs that she will inevitably have to deal with. The cost of vaccinations, food for the bitch and for the pups, toys, pre- and post-natal care, emergency care in the case of a stuck pup and so on. People who are looking for studs -- that they can't recognise -- in a town park don't give two hoots about genetic testing. It's not as if certifying one parent makes the litter safe from HD anyway.
I agree and it just gets scarier because,

The cost of vaccinations, food for the bitch and for the pups, toys, pre- and post-natal care,

the above statement either means nothing to these BYB types or they are too stupid to even know they need stuff in the above statement. My experience through the years is that it's usually just breed and then wait for puppies to drop out with little price stickers on them.
 

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I agree and it just gets scarier because,

The cost of vaccinations, food for the bitch and for the pups, toys, pre- and post-natal care,

the above statement either means nothing to these BYB types or they are too stupid to even know they need stuff in the above statement. My experience through the years is that it's usually just breed and then wait for puppies to drop out with little price stickers on them.
I used to be one of those people.

I wanted puppies soooo bad. Just because I have never gotten to have a litter; my dogs have always been s/n the minute they walked in the door.

Then I found DF.

Um, not any more. I knew about shots and prenatal care, I just had no concept of how many things could go wrong. Never mind the dogs here and there that already need homes.

Oh well. Ignorance is indeed a curable disease.
 

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I'm afraid to try to educate people. My boyfriend is like, "Babe, you are WAY too over the top with this dog stuff. Most people have no clue or don't care."

I don't try to explain stuff to people. I usually just smile and nod.

There's a girl who sits close to me at work and she has two unfixed chihuahuas that she's hoping will eventually mate. The female has a deer head and has an awful temperment and will not let the male mount her. Thank God!

The male is a very large chihuahua at 7 lbs, and I'm sure that if he ever did mate the female, her puppies would likely hurt her if not kill her during the whelping process.

She has no clue about health testing. She doesn't get why people have to "show off their dogs" and has gone so far as to tease me for being a dog snob because I used to show.

I just smile and roll with it. Some people just have to learn the hard way, unfortunately.
 
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