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Discussion Starter #1
So I am a dog sitter/walker I also help with "husky proofing" your yard or crate training. I specialize in northern breeds but will do all breeds and cats. I went to a vendor event for Spca last week. I met a lady who was a so called trainer. Who believes in negative reinforcement training. I have never seen someone try to train a dog like her.

She believes strongly in
Choking collars
Shocking collars
Spraying water in the dogs face if they do something wrong.

She also pretty much chases and screams at the dog to train it. She is a certified trainer. After her screaming at maggie at this event because she told me she has worked with northern breeds before. I had enough. I did all the commands for her and walked. Maggie got her good girl pat and love she was happy then laid back down. She also talked crap about SPCA the whole event. The SPCA likes me, and they bring huskies and mals to the events I'm at. She also told me she lied on her website by telling people, she does positive training. I looked up all these reviews on her. 1 person out of 20 reviews liked her. She made a very nice dog to an scared aggressive dog. Maggie hid under the table from her. Maggie never does this with anyone!
 

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Those training tools are not for Negative Reinforcement training, they are for Positive Punishment training. I myself use positive punishment as one of my training techniques but I start every dog out with Positive Reinforcement and only use Positive punishment for proofing. But having a trainer tell me Positive Punishment is the ONLY training quadrant they use? They have a LOT more to learn as a trainer.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
That is what I thought. I just couldn't believe this lady trains dogs like this.

She told me I shouldn't praise her at all for being really good. She will walk all over me. I told her I am firm with her but she also will listen to me because she really does want love and respect. She told me I shouldn't be afraid to hit a dog! Wtf? I thought I misinterpreted that. I still have bitter taste in my mouth. I can't wait until this big dog event and they can put me far away from her.
 

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I personally use SOME of those tools...but as I said...they are TOOLS! I use them ONLY when necessary. They are effective when they are used correctly and with the right timing. Sadly most people use them incorrectly and it causes more issues. I always tell people if you are unsure about how to use a tool effectively and correctly please contact a professional! Thankfully my clients are awesome and call if they are unsure or have questions!
 

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That is what I thought. I just couldn't believe this lady trains dogs like this.

She told me I shouldn't praise her at all for being really good. She will walk all over me. I told her I am firm with her but she also will listen to me because she really does want love and respect. She told me I shouldn't be afraid to hit a dog! Wtf? I thought I misinterpreted that. I still have bitter taste in my mouth. I can't wait until this big dog event and they can put me far away from her.
This is a softer version of the guy who dragged his puppy until it bled: http://www.examiner.com/dogs-in-national/man-arrested-for-dragging-puppy-until-she-bled

Makes me sick.
 

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Those training tools are not for Negative Reinforcement training, they are for Positive Punishment training. I myself use positive punishment as one of my training techniques but I start every dog out with Positive Reinforcement and only use Positive punishment for proofing. But having a trainer tell me Positive Punishment is the ONLY training quadrant they use? They have a LOT more to learn as a trainer.
Why do you need positive punishment for "proofing"? What kind of positive punishment do you use?
 

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I personally prefer positive reinforcement, but I'm fine (to a degree) with the idea of aversive training tools, in the right context, the right person and the right dog, and only if it is really needed. But really, anybody who uses them as policy shouldn't be training! Actually, I would be looking for someone to report her to!

Oh, and the squirt gun....Caeda loves it. Great distractor, but for my girl, hardly a punishment :p
 

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That is what I thought. I just couldn't believe this lady trains dogs like this.

She told me I shouldn't praise her at all for being really good. She will walk all over me. I told her I am firm with her but she also will listen to me because she really does want love and respect. She told me I shouldn't be afraid to hit a dog! Wtf? I thought I misinterpreted that. I still have bitter taste in my mouth. I can't wait until this big dog event and they can put me far away from her.
Sometimes, it's all you can do to shake your head at the things people say. Over the years, I've shaken my head so much I think my neck vertebrae are in need of replacement.


"You can't make the world to order" is one phrase I find myself frequently repeating, in silence. "Run your own race" is another personal favourite.
... seems to bring sufficient relief.
 

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its vinegar water she uses. I have used water on maggie and just like your schnauzer she eats it!!!! lol
Sometimes I need to use a topical spray on my dogs. They aren't crazy about it as is. I would hate for them to know that as a punisher. The thing about throwing stuff and spraying stuff as a punisher is that it can have far reaching results you'd never expect. For instance, I had one student in my Therapy dog class who had been chucking a can full of rocks at one of her dogs. (certainly before she came to me - i'd never recommend that) The evaluator we use sometimes drops a can full of rocks or pennies for a noise distraction in the test. Can you imagine this poor dog's reaction?
 

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Why do you need positive punishment for "proofing"? What kind of positive punishment do you use?
For an example.... When Lark first came home I would completely ignore any potty accidents in the house, if she happened to squat and pee I quietly picked her up and brought her outside. If she finished her peeing outside I had a party, saying good girl, and giving lots of treats. After about a month she started going to the door to signal she needed to go out. Since I knew she was catching on, I decided to add Positive Punishment. Now when she would not give me a signal and started to squat inside I would yell "AH AH!!". Every other step of the training remained the same, just adding the adversive sound.
 

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Those training tools are not for Negative Reinforcement training, they are for Positive Punishment training.
Any collar can be used for -R including the flat one. E collars are especially popular for negative reinforcement because you can use consistent low level continuous stim or pager/vibrator, more annoying than a flat collar but less aversive and stressful than a prong or choke.

I personally think that the "certified" trainer lady is either nuts or very uninformed.

edit: I mean, if you paid 400 bucks for an e collar why use spray bottle? Modern collars have 127 levels of annoyance you can use, spray bottle has 1 level, it's vastly inconsistent and it varies greatly among different dogs.
 

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For an example.... When Lark first came home I would completely ignore any potty accidents in the house, if she happened to squat and pee I quietly picked her up and brought her outside. If she finished her peeing outside I had a party, saying good girl, and giving lots of treats. After about a month she started going to the door to signal she needed to go out. Since I knew she was catching on, I decided to add Positive Punishment. Now when she would not give me a signal and started to squat inside I would yell "AH AH!!". Every other step of the training remained the same, just adding the adversive sound.
Indeed, that could be positive punishment (or simply an interruptor - not everything fits neatly into four quadrants.) I'm glad you clarified though. Most people when they think of positive punishment are thinking of more forceful things than Ah-ah. And I hate the idea of suggesting that those things are necessary once a dog is trained. If the dog is "trained" which IMO is an ongoing process, not an end goal. If my dog refuses a cue, I'm going to figure out what went wrong and fix that instead of punishing the dog for what was probably a logical response to him. I.e, something went wrong in the training. I actually love dogs who ask questions and ask for definitions. The response I'm looking for gets rewarded, others not so much. Depending on the dog's level of understanding.

Any collar can be used for -R including the flat one. E collars are especially popular for negative reinforcement because you can use consistent low level continuous stim or pager/vibrator, more annoying than a flat collar but less aversive and stressful than a prong or choke.

I personally think that the "certified" trainer lady is either nuts or very uninformed.

edit: I mean, if you paid 400 bucks for an e collar why use spray bottle? Modern collars have 127 levels of annoyance you can use, spray bottle has 1 level, it's vastly inconsistent and it varies greatly among different dogs.
Why would you need to do any of that?
 

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edit: I mean, if you paid 400 bucks for an e collar why use spray bottle? Modern collars have 127 levels of annoyance you can use, spray bottle has 1 level, it's vastly inconsistent and it varies greatly among different dogs.
because wet skin conducts electricity more efficiently? I'm just guessing........
 

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because wet skin conducts electricity more efficiently? I'm just guessing........
Although you provide a good point 127 levels are still more than enough for any dog to get the signal so to speak.

Why would you need to do any of that?
Well, why would you need to train a dog at all? What do you really expect from your dog? Why would you even need a dog to begin with? Answer to your question depends on these other questions. But then I will tell you that with the help of an e collar even most rambunctious, energetic, teenage hunting dog can be trained without any hassle. Then, you will tell me that this can easily be done without an e collar and is even much more effective and/or faster as well. That's fine. I train according to Michael Ellis' school (he's no stranger to aversives) although I also love reading stuff from Sue Ailsby (that's thanks to you). Unfortunately many other trainers I find are arrogant self-righteous twats and they are pretty religious about their methods.
 

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Although you provide a good point 127 levels are still more than enough for any dog to get the signal so to speak.


Well, why would you need to train a dog at all? What do you really expect from your dog? Why would you even need a dog to begin with? Answer to your question depends on these other questions. But then I will tell you that with the help of an e collar even most rambunctious, energetic, teenage hunting dog can be trained without any hassle. Then, you will tell me that this can easily be done without an e collar and is even much more effective and/or faster as well. That's fine. I train according to Michael Ellis' school (he's no stranger to aversives) although I also love reading stuff from Sue Ailsby (that's thanks to you). Unfortunately many other trainers I find are arrogant self-righteous twats and they are pretty religious about their methods.
I don't train huntin dawgs, so cannot speak directly to that. I can say that I can train any dog I've owned (and many that belong to others, with the cooperation from their owners) to do most anything I need or they need without physical aversives. Shrug.
 
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