Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello! My name's Tatiana, and I would be really grateful for your opinion about my current situation with registration of my dog's litter.
I've been a FCI breeder in Russia for 15 years, but moved in USA and got AKC registration just 3 years ago, so I'm not familiar with the practice to solve the problems in the relationships between me, dam owner, male's owner and the 3rd party - Labrador Kennel.
My Labrador girl AKC registered, with all necessary tests and Russian Champion Title with a decent pedigree.
1.May 2018 I signed the Stud Contract with the Labrador Male's Owner, her lab has Am. Champion title, all tests, he's perfect match by bloodlines.
By the contract stud fee 2200, due to pay in 90 days after puppies are born.
There's a paragraph that: "Stud owner agrees to... Provide a bitch owner with guarantee for 2 live birth puppies for full stud service fee. This guarantee includes a return stud service of the same tog to the same bitch within 2 years if no pregnancy results from the first mating or only 1 puppy is born. To receive the return service, the bitch owner must notify the stud dog owner in writing (by e-mail) of failure to conceive by the 64 day after the 1st breeding."
There were no pregnancy that time, male owner was very friendly, we talked a lot on the phone, so I informed her that our stud wasn't successful. She didn't have any questions about it - she's seen photos of the dog. So, there's no email from me about failure to conceive. Or emails from her with this question.
2. May 2019 - Male's owner offers to repeat the stud. I didn't have enough of finances and time to grow the puppies. Male's owner offered lease contract with her friend's kennel (he's a respectable experienced breeder of her dog). By this lease contract I bring my dog for a stud service at the kennel in another city (300 miles away) , then before a deliver, I get a payout 1200$ for each puppy minus - 2000$ stud fee to male's owner, 1200$ for growing the litter, 500$ for other expenses, 700$ for C-section. As I was told there were 7 puppies, 1 died before C-section. 6 alive puppies - they were great. 5 of them were sold by the kennel as show-dogs within our state (so kennel could provide training for dog shows).
So, by the lease contract I got 2800$ payouts for 6 puppies. I didn't pay for anything in advance, all the risks were on the breeder, as well as puppy's food, vaccination - etc. So it was absolutely OK.
3. The problem appeared when I got my dog back after 8 weeks at the kennel with the puppies. I got her back with fleas, lots of hot spots and fungus disease, she had lots of infected lumps, the scar after C-Section was in awful condition. I had photos and videos of my dog before I brought to the kennel and after. I emailed photos to the kennel's owner and to the male's owner. Kennel's owner didn't admit his responsibility but added 500 as a bonus for a great value puppies. Male's owner said it wasn't a kennel's owner fault, but a person who was personally responsible for growing puppies up to 7 weeks (they were at kennel's partner house). As I've heard so much about care and responsibility of the kennel's owner from the male's owner, I just spent this 500$ for medical help and didn't mention it anymore. It took me 2 months, lots of antibiotics and other medicine to get my dog healthy.
4. January 2020 - male's owner texts me with suggestion to repeat a stud. March 2020 we text each other messages about possible repeating a stud. I reject to leave my dog with puppies at the same kennel again. I have necessary experience and now I have time to grow them in my home. Male's owner takes time to think about it.
5. July 2020 By text messages we discuss the terms of a new stud/litter. I text that "Stud fee 2000, all other terms as they were before, but I grow the puppies at my home and bring them to the kennel at 7 weeks." My mistake - I didn't explain in this text message "other terms" - a signed lease contract, arrangements of C-Section including a payment for it (the kennel cooperates only with one veterinarian for many years) , providing the necessary puppies food (I always used in Russia Royal Canine Starter the same as owner of the kennel here, but I can't find it to buy on my own) deworming and so on.
6. End of July 2020 I bring my healthy dog for a stud for 3 days staying at the kennel. I didn't want to leave her any longer because of my sad experience with before. But her progesterone unusually low - what we figured out only when we got test results already at the kennel and the breeder leaves her for a week.
The owner of the kennel didn't prepare a lease contract - saying "we'll sign when you bring the puppies, don't worry"
I got email from Male's owner that my dog had 2 successful studs (side by side) at the kennel. I took her back. And she was all in hot spots again! Malassezia all over the whole body. As the dog was supposed to be pregnant I couldn't give her fluconazole or antibiotics - as there were definitely a bacterial infection on the wounds as well. I sent pictures to the male owner - she could only say "I can't get how it's happened! The kennel owner is very caring and professional person, I never had similar issues with my dog". That's it. Being kind of frustrated I just started to treat my dog with different topical solutions. And we're still fighting it.
7. Last weekend I submitted that my dog's pregnant by sms to male owner. She told me to write email to kennel's owner so he could get agreement with his veterinarian (who is at the same distance as the kennel 300 miles from me). I agreed, as I expected that "it gonna be on the same terms as last time" that the kennel will pay to the veterinarian directly. Last Wednesday I sent an email to the kennel owner asking to make an arrangements for C-section and send me information about Royal Canine Starter, deworming medicine and other things that puppies need before 7 weeks.
I didn't get any respond from the kennel owner.
Last Thursday I've got a phone call form male owner that she talked to the kennel owner and he said I need to make an appointment with his veterinarian by myself. And it already sounded not like previous terms of lease contract that we had before. I called to his veterinarian 6 times, left a few voice messages, as the phone didn't respond, sent 3 messages - it was Friday morning. By Friday evening there were no any respond from veterinarian. I texted about it to male owner - there were no respond. So made an appointment for X-Ray and C-Section at the hospital in my city. And... I just figured out that it gonna be almost the same price as I was charged before with a previous litter (though I was told, that kennel provided his special low price for C-Section).
And this was a moment to realize that things go in a really wrong way.
1. There's no signed lease contract with the kennel which would determine the payout for each puppy, responsibility of the kennel owner regarding C-Section arrangements, puppy food etc.
2. I don't get any care or help from the kennel owner with my dog. Yes, for male's owner it sounds unreal that my dog got sick for the second time during a week at the kennel. But it's a fact that I can prove with many photos.
3. So, I'm alone taking all the risks, including financial risks, I'm paying this time for everything on my own. And in best case I gonna get 1400$ for each puppy in 7 weeks for help with finding good families. I understand that the kennel sales show-puppies by absolutely different price. But this year I don't have any problems with finding buyers- new families for puppies through AKC. I have time. And as far as I didn't get any help that I expected from the kennel as it was by previous contract I don't feel that I want to cooperate with this kennel. I don't want to bring them puppies that I will grow completely on my own just for sake. Especially after I got a really sick dog after just a week at the kennel.
4. Today I've got a call from male owner. She made an appointment with kennel's veterinarian herself. I explained that I will do C-Section at the hospital in my city. By the same price. Without spending 4,5 hours driving with pregnant dog and back with puppies and a dog after C-Section. I explained that because of the lack of help from the kennel owner and a bad care about my dog during the week she stayed there, at the kennel for a stud, because of absence a lease contract with a kennel, I don't want to sell puppies though the kennel. I admitted, that I surely gonna pay stud fee, 2200 as it was mentioned in our very first stud contract. I offered even to pay it earlier - 1000 in October, 1000 in November. I explained that I gonna sell puppies through website AKC and advertise them through my own Facebook page (as I've been a Labrador breeder for 18 years for now, I never had problems with it and my puppies have been sold from Russia all over the world.) And especially I don't see any difficulties with it now, as we repeat a litter from the same parents and a few puppies from the previous litter already proved themself by winning several dog shows in US.
Male owner doesn't agree. She insists in selling the puppies through her friend's kennel. She threatens not to sign documents for AKC litter registration if I don't cooperate with the kennel. And this way puppies won't have any pedigree.
I understand that male owner has personal many years relationships with this kennel. Her dogs gets studs through the kennel time to time. Male owner has a positive experience with this kennel.
My experience is different. I don't feel it's fair not to get any benefits from the cooperation with the kennel. I don't want to pay for "good relationships between male owner and kennel owner". But I also don't want to leave healthy purebred puppies from already checked parents without documents and to stuck with selling the puppies without AKC registration. Another words I don't know what to do.
Could you advice me anything? Is there any chances to get AKC registration by proving the stud fees payment, our very first stud contract and email from the male owner with the admission of the studs this year?
Or maybe you will be on the side of the Male owner - I would respectfully consider your opinion too, just ask you to remind that kennel owner didn't want to sign this year a lease contract unless I bring puppies to his kennel at their 7 weeks.
Anyway, thank you for your patience to read such a long text. Sorry, it's really long. English isn't my mother's tongue, so I need more words to make it clear ))
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
364 Posts
So let's see - your bitch was returned to you in horrible shape once, and you went and contracted with the same people again? Are you nuts? Or is your only interest in your dog making money? Talk to a lawyer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
They saw you coming, didn't they? Sounds like they've got a nice little arrangement. Free bitch, free puppies, money for the privilege of using a titled bitch and "show quality" puppies. And you only have their word for it that those show quality puppies were from your bitch. They were even free to use a second male on her!

I'm no breeder - all my dogs have been and are "2nd hand" dogs - 2 rescue-rehomes and 1 Free to Good Home -, and I'm not American - not yet had the opportunity to even visit, (I would love to, one day, but I digress...)

I don't see why the kennel was involved at all. The stud goes to the breeder's house (that's you - not the kennel) or the bitch owner goes to the stud's house. The bitch is then cared for at home and the pups are raised by the breeder. Any and all costs involved during the pregnancy, births and raising of the puppies is accrued by the breeder - you. Perhaps it's different in America, but I don't see why it would be.

However. Taking this at face value, if it were my bitch and I was in your position, the first time my dog was returned to me covered in hot spots and fleas etc, I would have terminated the contract with the stud dog owner there and then and sued the kennel for vet fees. Bright blue pigs would fly like angels in the sky before either the stud owner or the kennel ever got their hands on my dog again.

Given that you are so experienced in breeding, why on Earth weren't alarm bells ringing loud and clear that this wasn't right? If I can see this is dodgy, and I have 0 experience of breeding, then you should have smelled the rat long ago.

You made your bed, you lie in it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
375 Posts
I agree with everything thats been said

You've made a contract now you have to honour it , learn from your mistake and dont allow your dog to be put in that position again no matter how much profit you think its going to make,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
So let's see - your bitch was returned to you in horrible shape once, and you went and contracted with the same people again? Are you nuts? Or is your only interest in your dog making money? Talk to a lawyer.
Maybe I'm nuts but... I was told that it's not kennel's owner fault, but his partners who grew up a litter at their own place. So I brought my dog for stud service to the kennel directly only for 3 days, a kennel owner left her for a week instead of 3 days as she wasn't ready for a stud yet. Yes, I realized that the problem was at the kennel itself when just after one week of staying there my dog got sick again. You see, I invest into my dogs all the life - training, dog-shows, genetic tests, running board etc. Just to bring her here from Russia costed a few thousand dollars. And it's not a question, she's my dog. So yes, I'm not ashamed to make money producing healthy purebred puppies. It will be her 3rd and the last litter, she's 7. Thank you, the question is to find a lower who doesn't cost a fortune but can help with dogs issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I agree with everything thats been said

You've made a contract now you have to honour it , learn from your mistake and dont allow your dog to be put in that position again no matter how much profit you think its going to make,
The thing is that we have agreements referring to the previous terms of lease contract only by sms. The kennel owner didn't sign a lease contract with me at the moment of stud service - "we'll sign when you bring puppies".
There's no any contract at all. Since then I figured out that there's a problem at the kennel itself (not with the partners or whatever else). I figured out I was told lies about special discounts for C-Section and probably another costs. (As a hospital near by me offered the same price as I paid before "with kennel discount" for C-Section). The kennel owner doesn't follow terms of previous contract already. Doesn't respond my letters. So I don't have any guarantee that when the puppies will be 7 weeks old the kennel will sign documents with the terms that we discussed before. And the idea to bring puppies at the kennel where my dog got sick twice...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,411 Posts
I agree with what has been said so far. Honestly, from what you've said I've gotten a bad "vibe" and it sounds like a puppy mill type of situation. Just because they are AKC doesn't mean they can't be pumped out through a puppy mill. These people are obviously dishonest and do not care for their dogs well - just like a classic mill.

Most reputable breeders will have people waiting to get one of their puppies, sometimes for years. I don't see why you would need to go through a kennel in order to sell them. It just sounds like you're going through a very weird process - I'm not a breeder, though, so who knows, but I have done research into many a responsible breeder and they all raise their puppies in their home and sell the puppies themselves. Most of their puppies are claimed before they're even born. I would not buy a puppy from a situation like you have described.

I would hire a lawyer to settle this because it does sound to me like you could argue that the stud owner has to sign the papers for the litter to be AKC registered. Or, tell the male owner you will be hiring a lawyer and perhaps they will back off and not give you any more problems. If you don't have the money to do that you may be out of luck. Your options would then be to comply and send them to the kennel, or sell them yourself without registration. Even if that means taking a financial loss. Just because they aren't registered doesn't mean you have to give them away for free. Plenty of people will want a well bred lab, even if you can only prove the mother's side, for a reasonable rehoming fee.

You are right to feel uneasy about sending the puppies to that kennel. Trust your gut. I can tell you love your dog very much and take pride in your puppies. I'm sorry it seems like these people took advantage of you, but do right by your dog and the puppies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I agree with what has been said so far. Honestly, from what you've said I've gotten a bad "vibe" and it sounds like a puppy mill type of situation. Just because they are AKC doesn't mean they can't be pumped out through a puppy mill. These people are obviously dishonest and do not care for their dogs well - just like a classic mill.

Most reputable breeders will have people waiting to get one of their puppies, sometimes for years. I don't see why you would need to go through a kennel in order to sell them. It just sounds like you're going through a very weird process - I'm not a breeder, though, so who knows, but I have done research into many a responsible breeder and they all raise their puppies in their home and sell the puppies themselves. Most of their puppies are claimed before they're even born. I would not buy a puppy from a situation like you have described.

I would hire a lawyer to settle this because it does sound to me like you could argue that the stud owner has to sign the papers for the litter to be AKC registered. Or, tell the male owner you will be hiring a lawyer and perhaps they will back off and not give you any more problems. If you don't have the money to do that you may be out of luck. Your options would then be to comply and send them to the kennel, or sell them yourself without registration. Even if that means taking a financial loss. Just because they aren't registered doesn't mean you have to give them away for free. Plenty of people will want a well bred lab, even if you can only prove the mother's side, for a reasonable rehoming fee.

You are right to feel uneasy about sending the puppies to that kennel. Trust your gut. I can tell you love your dog very much and take pride in your puppies. I'm sorry it seems like these people took advantage of you, but do right by your dog and the puppies.
Thank you so much for you opinion. Actually it's a very well known, respectable kennel, the owner is in Labrador breeding for 50 years. This fact made me feel so frustrated and confused when I got my dog back sick. Especially the second time. And this makes me feel weird now, when they didn't sign a lease contract at the moment of the stud service which is against AKC rules. And yes, they don't grow the puppies themselves. But have a waiting list for each litter. Pretty unusual, right? I'm looking for an attorney. Hope, he'll help me to get AKC registration based on the first stud contract, I would be more than happy to pay 2200 for stud fee as soon as possible but not to deal with the kennel or male owner anymore.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,890 Posts
Frankly..... I do not know what to think.....
I have been around, involved with, etc etc etc.... Dog breeding my entire life. (I am 53)
Both AKC and UKC.....

I have owned stud dogs, breeding btiches, Been involved with leases, private treaty, etc.

A ton of what you said is hard to follow. And frankly there are a LOT of strange things being said....

Just a few things strike me as odd.......

1) the 7 weeks thing..... It is such an odd number. First the generally accepted appropriate age to allow puppies go to their homes is 8 weeks.... In fact it is the law in many places..

2) Sounds like the C Section starting with the 2018 breeding was automatic. A realize that in some breeds for safety, C sections are the norm..... But in Labrador Retrievers? There is no mention of any issues with labor, the pregnancy, etc? A large well built breed like a Labradors...... Why not allow her to whelp naturally? And If she could not whelp naturally, why are you breeding again? Aside from breeds that already have whelping issues. Bulldogs, Frenchies, Cavs, etc etc etc. Why I you continuing to produce dogs from a Btich that cannot whelp naturally?
Frankly doing so is odd.... and imo irresponsible.

3) your dog is only going to the stud dog for 3 days? According to your post the breeding took. But as the owner of stud dogs....... If I cannot have your female for 7 days, I am not going to bother. Because we are just setting up for failure..... Even with Progresterone tests.... Timing of standing heat is not THAT exact..... There needs to be at least two successful ties with at least a day in between for a reasonable expectation of a good litter. Three ties is BETTER. And you do not want a tiny litter... Especially with a breed like Labradors... get a sketchy breeding etc and you end up with a HUGE singleton puppy or just two or three huge.... (this is when c sections should come into play with Labradors.... Not litters of 7 or 8)

4) The owner of the stud, the third party kennel, and you...... What is the Kennel's real stake in this? Why are you allowing the stud dog owner and the kennel owner to run the litter.....
Here is a little fact for you..... The owner of the Btich is the Breeder..... End of story........
I have seen some weird situations over the years....... But nothing this weird.......

5) Paying the stud fee after the whelping...... Well.... Ummmm No.... I realize people do stud their dogs and get paid when the litter is sold..... But I do and will not stud one of my dogs and accept payment after the say of the litter...... for a few reasons.....

A) Both I and my dog have done their work, well before the litter comes.... And yes as the owner of the stud dog there is work involved for me. 1a) I am not sending my stud to anyone..... Aside from the fact that I am not entrusting my dog with someone else. 1b) There is nothing to prevent someone from "collecting" from my dog and saving it for later. 1c) Breeding is not always what people that do not breed imagine. It can be violent. Dogs can get hurt... Etc The female can be testy and attack the stud. You can have an inexperienced stud that gets nervous or scared when the tie happens. Sometimes they cannot figure out how to step over and you have to lift their leg for them. Sometimes you have a first time female and she gets scared or confused... Females will usually "death roll" When this happens. As the stud owner, I take responsibility for keeping everything safe.

B) if a breeder cannot afford a stud fee up front, they are running on far too much of a shoestring to be thinking about a litter..... JMO there..... But if something goes wrong..... A breeding can get expensive VERY VERY quick...

C) There is nothing to force the breeder to pay me after the fact..... They want to breed to my dog, they can pay me and I will contract a repeat breeding for a miss.... But if everyone is healthy and everything is done right... Misses are not all that common in most breeds...

6) As I mentioned earlier..... The Breeder of the litter is the owner (or owners) of the Btich (Female) The owner of the stud is the owner of the stud.... The breeder (s) fill out and sign the Litter Application and signs the registration applications on the puppies.... There is NO PLACE for the owner of the stud dog to sign either the litter or the puppy applications..... And when the puppy's registrations come back from the AKC.... ONLY the owner or owners of the Dam are listed as the breeders of the dog.... (This is true with the AKC. I have not done or been involved with a UKC Litter in about 28 years. But I studded my UKC dogs out back in the day and do not remember ever signing off on any litters) ALL of the owners of the Dam (the female that whelped the litter) MUST sign the litter and the puppy applications... Or give power of attorney to the owner that is raising the litter and handling the paperwork..

7) You say that the owner of the stud dog is threatening to not sign the paperwork for the AKC Registration of the puppies.... Unless she has an ownership stake on your female and is listed on your female's AKC registration.... There is NOTHING for her to sign..... As I said, there is not even any place on the litter or puppy registration applications for the owner of the Stud/Sire to sign....

8) I can tell you this...... All this drama and squabbling..... EVERYONE involved, you, the stud dog owner, and possibly even the kennel owner are BEGGING to get suspended or outright banned from the AKC and all AKC privileges.... The AKC DOES NOT LIKE BREEDER DRAMA! THEY WILL NOT STAND FOR FOOLISHNESS THAT PUTS ANY SORT OF BAD LIGHT ON THEIR REPUTATION AS A REGISTRY!.... And they will not take sides in a breeder/breeding/ownership squabble.... If it gets to them...... They will suspend everyone until they feel different. They will also publish it and it will never leave your history as a Breeder or dog owner.....


Strange stuff.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Frankly..... I do not know what to think.....
I have been around, involved with, etc etc etc.... Dog breeding my entire life. (I am 53)
Both AKC and UKC.....

I have owned stud dogs, breeding btiches, Been involved with leases, private treaty, etc.

A ton of what you said is hard to follow. And frankly there are a LOT of strange things being said....

Just a few things strike me as odd.......

1) the 7 weeks thing..... It is such an odd number. First the generally accepted appropriate age to allow puppies go to their homes is 8 weeks.... In fact it is the law in many places..

2) Sounds like the C Section starting with the 2018 breeding was automatic. A realize that in some breeds for safety, C sections are the norm..... But in Labrador Retrievers? There is no mention of any issues with labor, the pregnancy, etc? A large well built breed like a Labradors...... Why not allow her to whelp naturally? And If she could not whelp naturally, why are you breeding again? Aside from breeds that already have whelping issues. Bulldogs, Frenchies, Cavs, etc etc etc. Why I you continuing to produce dogs from a Btich that cannot whelp naturally?
Frankly doing so is odd.... and imo irresponsible.

3) your dog is only going to the stud dog for 3 days? According to your post the breeding took. But as the owner of stud dogs....... If I cannot have your female for 7 days, I am not going to bother. Because we are just setting up for failure..... Even with Progresterone tests.... Timing of standing heat is not THAT exact..... There needs to be at least two successful ties with at least a day in between for a reasonable expectation of a good litter. Three ties is BETTER. And you do not want a tiny litter... Especially with a breed like Labradors... get a sketchy breeding etc and you end up with a HUGE singleton puppy or just two or three huge.... (this is when c sections should come into play with Labradors.... Not litters of 7 or 8)

4) The owner of the stud, the third party kennel, and you...... What is the Kennel's real stake in this? Why are you allowing the stud dog owner and the kennel owner to run the litter.....
Here is a little fact for you..... The owner of the Btich is the Breeder..... End of story........
I have seen some weird situations over the years....... But nothing this weird.......

5) Paying the stud fee after the whelping...... Well.... Ummmm No.... I realize people do stud their dogs and get paid when the litter is sold..... But I do and will not stud one of my dogs and accept payment after the say of the litter...... for a few reasons.....

A) Both I and my dog have done their work, well before the litter comes.... And yes as the owner of the stud dog there is work involved for me. 1a) I am not sending my stud to anyone..... Aside from the fact that I am not entrusting my dog with someone else. 1b) There is nothing to prevent someone from "collecting" from my dog and saving it for later. 1c) Breeding is not always what people that do not breed imagine. It can be violent. Dogs can get hurt... Etc The female can be testy and attack the stud. You can have an inexperienced stud that gets nervous or scared when the tie happens. Sometimes they cannot figure out how to step over and you have to lift their leg for them. Sometimes you have a first time female and she gets scared or confused... Females will usually "death roll" When this happens. As the stud owner, I take responsibility for keeping everything safe.

B) if a breeder cannot afford a stud fee up front, they are running on far too much of a shoestring to be thinking about a litter..... JMO there..... But if something goes wrong..... A breeding can get expensive VERY VERY quick...

C) There is nothing to force the breeder to pay me after the fact..... They want to breed to my dog, they can pay me and I will contract a repeat breeding for a miss.... But if everyone is healthy and everything is done right... Misses are not all that common in most breeds...

6) As I mentioned earlier..... The Breeder of the litter is the owner (or owners) of the Btich (Female) The owner of the stud is the owner of the stud.... The breeder (s) fill out and sign the Litter Application and signs the registration applications on the puppies.... There is NO PLACE for the owner of the stud dog to sign either the litter or the puppy applications..... And when the puppy's registrations come back from the AKC.... ONLY the owner or owners of the Dam are listed as the breeders of the dog.... (This is true with the AKC. I have not done or been involved with a UKC Litter in about 28 years. But I studded my UKC dogs out back in the day and do not remember ever signing off on any litters) ALL of the owners of the Dam (the female that whelped the litter) MUST sign the litter and the puppy applications... Or give power of attorney to the owner that is raising the litter and handling the paperwork..

7) You say that the owner of the stud dog is threatening to not sign the paperwork for the AKC Registration of the puppies.... Unless she has an ownership stake on your female and is listed on your female's AKC registration.... There is NOTHING for her to sign..... As I said, there is not even any place on the litter or puppy registration applications for the owner of the Stud/Sire to sign....

8) I can tell you this...... All this drama and squabbling..... EVERYONE involved, you, the stud dog owner, and possibly even the kennel owner are BEGGING to get suspended or outright banned from the AKC and all AKC privileges.... The AKC DOES NOT LIKE BREEDER DRAMA! THEY WILL NOT STAND FOR FOOLISHNESS THAT PUTS ANY SORT OF BAD LIGHT ON THEIR REPUTATION AS A REGISTRY!.... And they will not take sides in a breeder/breeding/ownership squabble.... If it gets to them...... They will suspend everyone until they feel different. They will also publish it and it will never leave your history as a Breeder or dog owner.....


Strange stuff.....
Well said and very informative. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Frankly..... I do not know what to think.....
I have been around, involved with, etc etc etc.... Dog breeding my entire life. (I am 53)
Both AKC and UKC.....

I have owned stud dogs, breeding btiches, Been involved with leases, private treaty, etc.

A ton of what you said is hard to follow. And frankly there are a LOT of strange things being said....

Just a few things strike me as odd.......

1) the 7 weeks thing..... It is such an odd number. First the generally accepted appropriate age to allow puppies go to their homes is 8 weeks.... In fact it is the law in many places..

2) Sounds like the C Section starting with the 2018 breeding was automatic. A realize that in some breeds for safety, C sections are the norm..... But in Labrador Retrievers? There is no mention of any issues with labor, the pregnancy, etc? A large well built breed like a Labradors...... Why not allow her to whelp naturally? And If she could not whelp naturally, why are you breeding again? Aside from breeds that already have whelping issues. Bulldogs, Frenchies, Cavs, etc etc etc. Why I you continuing to produce dogs from a Btich that cannot whelp naturally?
Frankly doing so is odd.... and imo irresponsible.

3) your dog is only going to the stud dog for 3 days? According to your post the breeding took. But as the owner of stud dogs....... If I cannot have your female for 7 days, I am not going to bother. Because we are just setting up for failure..... Even with Progresterone tests.... Timing of standing heat is not THAT exact..... There needs to be at least two successful ties with at least a day in between for a reasonable expectation of a good litter. Three ties is BETTER. And you do not want a tiny litter... Especially with a breed like Labradors... get a sketchy breeding etc and you end up with a HUGE singleton puppy or just two or three huge.... (this is when c sections should come into play with Labradors.... Not litters of 7 or 8)

4) The owner of the stud, the third party kennel, and you...... What is the Kennel's real stake in this? Why are you allowing the stud dog owner and the kennel owner to run the litter.....
Here is a little fact for you..... The owner of the Btich is the Breeder..... End of story........
I have seen some weird situations over the years....... But nothing this weird.......

5) Paying the stud fee after the whelping...... Well.... Ummmm No.... I realize people do stud their dogs and get paid when the litter is sold..... But I do and will not stud one of my dogs and accept payment after the say of the litter...... for a few reasons.....

A) Both I and my dog have done their work, well before the litter comes.... And yes as the owner of the stud dog there is work involved for me. 1a) I am not sending my stud to anyone..... Aside from the fact that I am not entrusting my dog with someone else. 1b) There is nothing to prevent someone from "collecting" from my dog and saving it for later. 1c) Breeding is not always what people that do not breed imagine. It can be violent. Dogs can get hurt... Etc The female can be testy and attack the stud. You can have an inexperienced stud that gets nervous or scared when the tie happens. Sometimes they cannot figure out how to step over and you have to lift their leg for them. Sometimes you have a first time female and she gets scared or confused... Females will usually "death roll" When this happens. As the stud owner, I take responsibility for keeping everything safe.

B) if a breeder cannot afford a stud fee up front, they are running on far too much of a shoestring to be thinking about a litter..... JMO there..... But if something goes wrong..... A breeding can get expensive VERY VERY quick...

C) There is nothing to force the breeder to pay me after the fact..... They want to breed to my dog, they can pay me and I will contract a repeat breeding for a miss.... But if everyone is healthy and everything is done right... Misses are not all that common in most breeds...

6) As I mentioned earlier..... The Breeder of the litter is the owner (or owners) of the Btich (Female) The owner of the stud is the owner of the stud.... The breeder (s) fill out and sign the Litter Application and signs the registration applications on the puppies.... There is NO PLACE for the owner of the stud dog to sign either the litter or the puppy applications..... And when the puppy's registrations come back from the AKC.... ONLY the owner or owners of the Dam are listed as the breeders of the dog.... (This is true with the AKC. I have not done or been involved with a UKC Litter in about 28 years. But I studded my UKC dogs out back in the day and do not remember ever signing off on any litters) ALL of the owners of the Dam (the female that whelped the litter) MUST sign the litter and the puppy applications... Or give power of attorney to the owner that is raising the litter and handling the paperwork..

7) You say that the owner of the stud dog is threatening to not sign the paperwork for the AKC Registration of the puppies.... Unless she has an ownership stake on your female and is listed on your female's AKC registration.... There is NOTHING for her to sign..... As I said, there is not even any place on the litter or puppy registration applications for the owner of the Stud/Sire to sign....

8) I can tell you this...... All this drama and squabbling..... EVERYONE involved, you, the stud dog owner, and possibly even the kennel owner are BEGGING to get suspended or outright banned from the AKC and all AKC privileges.... The AKC DOES NOT LIKE BREEDER DRAMA! THEY WILL NOT STAND FOR FOOLISHNESS THAT PUTS ANY SORT OF BAD LIGHT ON THEIR REPUTATION AS A REGISTRY!.... And they will not take sides in a breeder/breeding/ownership squabble.... If it gets to them...... They will suspend everyone until they feel different. They will also publish it and it will never leave your history as a Breeder or dog owner.....


Strange stuff.....
Yep!!! Thank you very much! You really opened my eyes for some things. I would be more than happy to explain.

7) Lies I've been told about stud owner contract for AKC registration. You see, the thing is that I've been in Labrador breeding in Russia - RKF - FCI. And there you can't register you litter earlier than after 45 days when official evaluation by a Breed Club delegate should be done or by the kennel owner ( if the owner has special diploma and business license to be accredited by RKF) and Stud Contract - MUST HAVE to get litter registration. That's why Stud Owners often get paid 40-60 days after a litter is born by the contract and they feel confident about it. Because, if there's a Stud Contract with a Stud Fee Payment up to 60 days since the puppies were born, litter might be registered at 45 days and get "puppy id". The breeder can sell them with puppy id. But if the breeder didn't pay Stud fee up to 60 days, a new puppy owner won't be able to exchange Puppy ID for Pedigree and can make a lot of troubles to the breeder - up to suspension from the RKF.

Now it gets interesting. The Male owner originally also from Russia, she immigrated 20 years ago. She knows that. She knows how important Stud Contract for Litter registration in Russia. I got known her just 6 months after I relocated to US. She was willing to explain me how AKC breeding rules work here. And I was so surprised that it's not in common in US to sign a Stud Contract with postponed Stud Fee Payment. ))))
Why I trusted so much? Again, based on my Russian mentality-experience. How to explain... Rumors go fast in Russia, all respectable breeders communicate with each other a lot. So if a show-dog owner invests in dog-shows, genetic tests, and has a decent quality bloodline dog - this person gonna value his reputation a lot. It's kind of sign - you can trust. Pretty often there's enough just agreement by words. At least this is how it used to be in my circle.
I give these details to move to the next point.

So, it seemed to me and Male owner had a lot in common. Both immigrants from the same country, both take the best care about our dogs, investing a lot in them. Her dog by a bloodline is a perfect match for my. Male owner went against American tradition and signed with me in 2018 a Stud Contract with postponed Stud fee. I understood that it kind of exclusive terms in USA. I was really grateful.
After the stud service Male Owner shares with me her dreams about becoming a breeder in the future and then getting into AKC judges program. But she has a male Labrador, she don't have any litters. She asks me if I can register her as co-owner. I'm grateful for her special terms of Stud Service I consider her a friend. I agree. For free. No charges. She offered to pay fees for registration - I agreed. Thanks God I listened to my American husband and asked her to sign a Co-owner contract. By this contract she doesn't have any rights for any benefits or puppies. She admits to approve any AKC forms which can be required in the future. And I'm the only one who has right to select studs, get litters, register puppies without any additional approval from her. This co-owner contract is signed by her, and I have it.

So, there's no way the Male owner can threaten to me not to sign AKC registration form for a litter.

2) There were no pregnancy, no C-section in 2018. My LabGirl had only one litter before - in Russia, natural delivery, 8 hours, 9 healthy puppies, no any complications. Yes, C-Section in Russia is also an exception. It's pretty rare. And I'm totally agree about "to breed labradors who are able to natural delivery". In 2019 I asked about it personally and in my emails to the kennel owner. By the emails I've got from the kennel owner they started to deliver naturally at the kennel, but 4 hours later went to the vet, and one puppy was already dead when C-Section started. Can't argue with it. I wasn't there. This time (it's a third and as I think the last litter for her) the kennel owner just said it should be C-Section, as I figured out later there're 3 big puppies. I don't want to take a risk, besides, in Russia as a registered nurse I had access to all necessary medicine to provide help if needed. It's different here.
3) I was required to bring puppies at the kennel at the age of 7 weeks, they would be at the kennel at least 2-3 weeks more before to go to their families.

So, I read you comment yesterday evening and didn't sleep since then. Now when I figured out the lies about "special price" for C-Section, about Stud Contract, how AKC used to deal with conflicts between co-breeders, co-owners etc, I couldn't get a puzzle together. The kennel has a respectable reputation. I re-read all emails from the kennel owner. So... there's no any email from him about lease contract terms, nothing. Every detail about terms and conditions, prices, payments from Male Owner. Even accounting about previous lease contract payouts and expenses - from her.

Well, now I know what to do, I gonna make all Stud fee payments I owe including additional 530$ for artificial insemination. And I gonna get AKC registration for these 3 puppies.

You helped me a lot. Thank you. Really. I guess it takes time to get used to breeding rules and experience as something absolutely new as I relocated to USA. But I'll get used to it.
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Top