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Discussion Starter #1
What are reasons, in your opinion, a breeder should cull.....

Reasons to cull a pup, reasons to cull an adult?

Which reasons should they employ lethal culling and which would make dogs candidates for surgical/non lethal culling?
 

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I think lethal culling is called for if the pup is not viable, or has a problem that will cause a lifelong disability. (I always cringe when I see the heart rending pleas to raise money for shelter puppies born without front or rear legs. On deafness or blindness, I think it is a judgment call. There are actually people out there who are specifically looking for these dogs. Have a friend who is on her third deaf Aussie. And I've known deaf dogs (and blind dogs) who live great lives. What is important is that they are with someone who understands the condition and is able to willingly cope with it. What is really heartbreaking is when someone brings you their boxer or cattledog puppy who "doesn't listen" and you have to break the news to them that it's likely that they aren't listening because they can't hear you. For people who were expecting a normal dog, this can be devestating. When it is both though, I think culling is a reasonable option. For an adult, the only real reason I can think of is that the dog is dangerously miswired. I have known some stockmen who would kill a dog who wouldn't work. Their reasoning that the dog would not make a good pet, and they don't want someone breeding that. These are old timers (the one I specifically remember saying this is passed on now - but he produced some awesome dogs). I couldn't do that, though. But I never actually bred for working stockdogs,
 

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I believe animals should be PTS in only two situations: the animal is sick and seriously suffering and there's nothing that can reasonably be done for it, or the animal is aggressive or fearful and again, nothing can be done for it. Otherwise, I think there is no reason to PTS any animal.

Now, I totally agree with breeders speutering dogs that don't match breed standards. That's fine, speuter them and either keep them as your own pet or sell them to a qualified pet owner. We have way too many homeless dogs in the US, hundreds are PTS every day, speutering a dog you can't ethically breed is a good thing.

I will say that I do sympathize with Rhodesian Ridgeback breeders in the UK. Pedigree Dogs Exposed made a big deal about RR breeders PTSing RR puppies born without ridges. It turns out that RRs without ridges look like pit bulls. Pit bulls are banned (at least in large portions) of the UK, so there are no homes for these ridgeless puppies. I'm not sure PTS healthy puppies is something I feel comfortable with, but in that situation where they're always going to be at risk, I do sympathize.
 

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I know breeders who cull hard. Could be anything really just up to the breeder and what they expect out of a pup. Some breeders will cull 8 out of 10 pups or even them all if they don't have certain traits they desire such as range, appearance, gritty etc... I'm talking about working/hunting stock type of dogs though.

I know most would rather cull the dogs they can't find a home for then place it in a non-working home that eventually the family won't be able to put up with because the dog is too intense for them and will only end up in a shelter and possibly water down the breed.
 

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I'm still waiting to hear from the people who believe the German system is better - about whether they still use the breed warden system, which culls (kills) substandard or excess puppies.
 

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I'm not familiar with that system? Explain?

I only know how they do it in the working dog/hunting dog world and it's harsh and cruel at times but very necessary to maintain those certain traits. What's funny is one of these dogs I'm talking about would cost 1/3 of one of those toy breeds :p Do they really cull anyways?
 

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The only time I would euthanize a pup is if it had a problem that could not be dealt saith comfortably or reasonably.
Pups that don't meet working standards would be neutered and placed or kept. It's not easy to find pet homes for such high drive dogs.
I don't agree with culling/killing because a litter is too big, or there is a small problem with a pup. Though it happens more than most know, I wouldn't support or buy from a breeder that practices this. That cuts down on who I would import from, and many breeders in the states.
I often take in 'sub standard ' dogs and attempt to get them working.
 

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I know breeders who cull hard. Could be anything really just up to the breeder and what they expect out of a pup. Some breeders will cull 8 out of 10 pups or even them all if they don't have certain traits they desire such as range, appearance, gritty etc... I'm talking about working/hunting stock type of dogs though.

I know most would rather cull the dogs they can't find a home for then place it in a non-working home that eventually the family won't be able to put up with because the dog is too intense for them and will only end up in a shelter and possibly water down the breed.
Gee, if only there were a way to permanently prevent a dog from breeding. . .

I also think that the only acceptable reason to kill a dog is if it is suffering in a way that can't be mitigated to a reasonable extent or if it is dangerous in a way that can't be managed.
 

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Only way I can think of is to cull the dog to begin with or have it fixed and sent to a home. Just my .02 cents. It gets more complicated to do that when you've got a high prey drive type of dog.
 

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I know breeders who cull hard. Could be anything really just up to the breeder and what they expect out of a pup. Some breeders will cull 8 out of 10 pups or even them all if they don't have certain traits they desire such as range, appearance, gritty etc... I'm talking about working/hunting stock type of dogs though.

I know most would rather cull the dogs they can't find a home for then place it in a non-working home that eventually the family won't be able to put up with because the dog is too intense for them and will only end up in a shelter and possibly water down the breed.
See, now that bothers me. If you're breeding working dogs, you know a certain percentage won't work. Every generation is going to have one or two, at least, that won't make good working dogs. You know this going in, so it should be incumbent upon you, the breeder who chose to bring these pups into existence, to find good nonworking homes for the dogs. Of course you should have a speuter contract for these homes, that's fine, but to say, "Oh, maybe someday it will end up in a shelter, I'll just kill it now" is the height of irresponsibility to me. By that logic, don't ever place any animal in any home then, just kill them all.
 

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See, now that bothers me. If you're breeding working dogs, you know a certain percentage won't work. Every generation is going to have one or two, at least, that won't make good working dogs. You know this going in, so it should be incumbent upon you, the breeder who chose to bring these pups into existence, to find good nonworking homes for the dogs. Of course you should have a speuter contract for these homes, that's fine, but to say, "Oh, maybe someday it will end up in a shelter, I'll just kill it now" is the height of irresponsibility to me. By that logic, don't ever place any animal in any home then, just kill them all.
I'm 50/50 on the subject. Because not all working dogs can be placed in a non-working home. Just because the dog didn't have the traits you desired doesn't mean it won't work at all and doesn't have a desire to do so. Most of the times I see this happen the dog ends up tearing someones home up because it's bored or kills the neighbors/family dog etc... I can't argue with the fact some of these breeders have the best dogs around because of the system they use.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hope this doesn't get heated. So far, so good.

It's interesting to read different views.

I don't have time for a lengthy response now but i will say culling 8 out of 10 or whole litters seems like you are doing something wrong. Maybe one needs to take another look.
 

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Hope this doesn't get heated. So far, so good.

It's interesting to read different views.

I don't have time for a lengthy response now but i will say culling 8 out of 10 or whole litters seems like you are doing something wrong. Maybe one needs to take another look.
It's a very good discussion to have IMO because the only views I ever hear are from working stock type dogs. I'm not sure how they cull on toy breeds or others if they even do so. I figure they only cull though because of health problems. I don't agree with culling 8 out of 10 pups but then again I don't breed and not sure what is expected in that particular yard. I've heard some people cull around 6 months - 2 years old depending on the dog.

Most of the time I'll see a litter born from some hog dog stock and by 8 months old only 2-3 pups out of that litter are finding hogs on their own while the rest aren't so they get culled. Most common I usually see.
 

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Hope this doesn't get heated. So far, so good.

It's interesting to read different views.

I don't have time for a lengthy response now but i will say culling 8 out of 10 or whole litters seems like you are doing something wrong. Maybe one needs to take another look.
I don't think there is anything even wrong with those pups. They are just not the best. Some even cull all females, because many don't work females.
Its not about money with those types, just to produce the top dog.

It is super hard to find appropriate homes for these dogs that don't work. That is part of being responsible though. Some think its better to not chance those dogs biting people and destroying everything, just to be euthanized.
You can breed the best bitch to the best stud, not every pup will be perfect, but I feel you surgically cull, and place it or keep it.
 

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See, now that bothers me. If you're breeding working dogs, you know a certain percentage won't work. Every generation is going to have one or two, at least, that won't make good working dogs. You know this going in, so it should be incumbent upon you, the breeder who chose to bring these pups into existence, to find good nonworking homes for the dogs. Of course you should have a speuter contract for these homes, that's fine, but to say, "Oh, maybe someday it will end up in a shelter, I'll just kill it now" is the height of irresponsibility to me. By that logic, don't ever place any animal in any home then, just kill them all.
+1. Exactly.
 

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I know back in the fifties when I was working at a Ridgeback kennel, they culled all pups that did not have a perfect Ridge. They never had a puppy without a ridge but sometimes it was the biggest, healthiest pups they put down just because their ridge was not perfect. I never liked to go and see the puppies until they were a few days old so I did not have to see it and certainly had no say in whether they did it or not. As it was not unusual for Ridgebacks to have very large litters, sometimes up to 16 pups, they still raised a lot of dogs.
 

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So I guess when people say "good breeders don't add to the shelter problem" we need to put an addendum on: "because they kill the rejects themselves"? I'm getting disillusioned.
 

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So I guess when people say "good breeders don't add to the shelter problem" we need to put an addendum on: "because they kill the rejects themselves"? I'm getting disillusioned.
No. Good breeders take responsibility for what they produce, not for killing pups that have minor problems.
.I wont even bother with a spay contract, because in the time it takes to get the dog back, it could be bred. That ups my responsibility to ten dogs instead of that bitch, or more for a male. If it shouldn't be bred, the pup stays here, is altered, then placed.
 

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So I guess when people say "good breeders don't add to the shelter problem" we need to put an addendum on: "because they kill the rejects themselves"? I'm getting disillusioned.
Your always disillusioned... -sighs-
Responsible breeders do not add to the shelter problem because their dog's don't end up in shelters. They keep close tabs on their dogs for their whole life, or if something does happen they are they to pull their dogs from a shelter opening up that space for more dogs in need if for some reason their contracts are ignored. They also don't over produce so yes they cull, they also put spay/neuter clauses in their contracts and so forth. There will always be people who would rather buy from a breeder then a shelter, the people that go to the breeders aren't interested in a shelter dog. At least responsible breeders do it correctly.
 

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They kill puppies correctly! Yay!

I apparently have excellent reason to be "always disillusioned".
 
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