Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

41 - 57 of 57 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,470 Posts
Worst.argument.ever.

1) Two wrongs don't make a right. Breeding two dogs that are not health tested and possibly have a plethora of health issues waiting to emerge doesn't mean that the puppies will magically have better genetics than the parents. In actuality, they will potentially get health issues from multiple breeds rather than just one.
2) You didn't address any of my questions. Maybe if you did, people would be responding to you differently.
3)I don't even want children...partially because I have bad genetic issues that I worry about passing on. People DO take that into consideration and there is genetic testing available to people now. So again, your argument does not apply to all people as a whole...do not generalize. And do not think that because other people in the world don't care for their kids that that makes it okay for you to add to the suffering in the world. Very flawed logic.
4) You say you will do your best to make sure the puppies you produce will have a good life...how will you do that?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,384 Posts
Very, very few people who are looking to offer a dog a quality life, with a high end diet, life long training, hours of exercise a day, possibly pet insurance, and regular trips to the vet for preventative healthcare are going to be interested in your puppies. These people will be looking for responsible and professional breeders who take care to only produce dogs with a good chance at a long, quality life.

How are you planning to sell the puppies? Since you have no interest in becoming professional, I don't see how you would do so besides craigslist or the newspaper or something similar. Educated and responsible dog owners don't look for dogs in these areas. The type of people that will buy your puppies will most likely teach the dog to sit and lay down and nothing else, and maybe take it to petco or to family's houses while it is small and fluffy and adorable and that will be the extent of it's socialization. Realistically, buyers of your puppies will not know how to deal with any behavioral issues that may arise (and with no information of the sire/dam's pedigree it is a crapshoot as far as behavior issues go) and will give them up when the dog snaps at their kid or never really becomes housetrained, even if it is not the dog's fault. If the dog is lucky it will see the vet once a year and receive all of its shots. You will screen buyers, but just because someone is a good person or well meaning doesn't mean they understand how to correctly and responsibly care for a dog - and honestly, I think you are a good example of the type of person who means well but is not educated.

This is not to say all people with yorkie-schnoodle-cocka-poo-uggles are bad dog owners. There are always exceptions to any rule. Maybe one lucky pup from the litter will get an owner who, after purchasing the puppy, stumbles upon a forum like this one and soaks up the information available and becomes determined to offer the dog a better life. Or, an educated and responsible owner rescued the dog from a shelter in the first place (because shelters receive many of these dogs, although it may not seem so because they are adopted quickly and often return several times before finding a permanent home).

Some people are open to new views and to be educated, while others can be given all the information and examples in the world and sit there and refuse to even consider opening their mind. Similarly, some people avidly seek to better the world and society, while others remain in their own world and look only to better it.

I realize that with the response you have gotten it would be easy to become defensive and defend your stance. But at the end of the day it is your choice and your conscience. If you can sleep at night knowing you are breeding your dog on a whim (you have yet to answer why you are breeding her other than you just want to do it) and that the puppies have the best chance at a mediocre life instead of an excellent one, no one can stop you. But, I can assure you nobody here is going to be on your side on this matter. What type of food should I feed my dog, how do I teach my dog agility, sure! We are here to help guide you. But no one here condones random breeding.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
Very, very few people who are looking to offer a dog a quality life, with a high end diet, life long training, hours of exercise a day, possibly pet insurance, and regular trips to the vet for preventative healthcare are going to be interested in your puppies. These people will be looking for responsible and professional breeders who take care to only produce dogs with a good chance at a long, quality life.

How are you planning to sell the puppies? Since you have no interest in becoming professional, I don't see how you would do so besides craigslist or the newspaper or something similar. Educated and responsible dog owners don't look for dogs in these areas. The type of people that will buy your puppies will most likely teach the dog to sit and lay down and nothing else, and maybe take it to petco or to family's houses while it is small and fluffy and adorable and that will be the extent of it's socialization. Realistically, buyers of your puppies will not know how to deal with any behavioral issues that may arise (and with no information of the sire/dam's pedigree it is a crapshoot as far as behavior issues go) and will give them up when the dog snaps at their kid or never really becomes housetrained, even if it is not the dog's fault. If the dog is lucky it will see the vet once a year and receive all of its shots. You will screen buyers, but just because someone is a good person or well meaning doesn't mean they understand how to correctly and responsibly care for a dog - and honestly, I think you are a good example of the type of person who means well but is not educated.

This is not to say all people with yorkie-schnoodle-cocka-poo-uggles are bad dog owners. There are always exceptions to any rule. Maybe one lucky pup from the litter will get an owner who, after purchasing the puppy, stumbles upon a forum like this one and soaks up the information available and becomes determined to offer the dog a better life. Or, an educated and responsible owner rescued the dog from a shelter in the first place (because shelters receive many of these dogs, although it may not seem so because they are adopted quickly and often return several times before finding a permanent home).

Some people are open to new views and to be educated, while others can be given all the information and examples in the world and sit there and refuse to even consider opening their mind. Similarly, some people avidly seek to better the world and society, while others remain in their own world and look only to better it.

I realize that with the response you have gotten it would be easy to become defensive and defend your stance. But at the end of the day it is your choice and your conscience. If you can sleep at night knowing you are breeding your dog on a whim (you have yet to answer why you are breeding her other than you just want to do it) and that the puppies have the best chance at a mediocre life instead of an excellent one, no one can stop you. But, I can assure you nobody here is going to be on your side on this matter. What type of food should I feed my dog, how do I teach my dog agility, sure! We are here to help guide you. But no one here condones random breeding.
All. Of. This.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,412 Posts
Regardless of your thoughts on the ethics of breeding, if you are so uninformed that you think mixed breeds are magically healthier than purebreds (they're not; if both breeds are prone to the same health issues, the mix will be as well), and if you don't know whether or not puppies need to be kept in the room in which they were whelped (why would they? They're functionally blind and deaf when born; they have no idea what room they're in), then you're not ready to breed dogs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,476 Posts
The comparison makes no sense for way, way too many reasons. Do I personally believe people who don't want or can't provide for their kids should have 5+ children added to the world? Humans typically bring one baby into the world at a time anyways, your dog is likely to produce up to a dozen mutt puppies. Do you really think you can find that many QUALITY homes for these puppies? And do you really think adopting a baby is the same as adopting a dog? There's emotional reasons that people want to have their own biological children, selfish yes, but there's no reason they need to have one of your puppies instead of getting the exact same dog from a shelter that already exists. If you were going to be producing health tested, proven dogs with extraordinary temperaments and backgrounds, then maybe you would be adding something to the world of dogs. You aren't ready to do that right now. This has nothing to do with orphaned humans. And if you care so little about dogs... Why in the world would you be breeding them?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
465 Posts
My dog is a shih Tsu -poodle/ toy fox terrier from 3 registered lines. He has food allergies, a sensitive stomach, seasonal allergies, bad teeth and I just found out about his luxating patellas ( very common in little dogs)

How many owners do you think would take the time to figure out what's causing the allergic reactions, figure out why he is having so many tummy issues, try a bunch of foods to find what works best with their tummy. Deal with pooping on the floor when they eat something wrong because they just can't help it. And then find out they may need surgery ... you know what most would do? Get a new dog, leaving that dog in a shelter. Because dogs like yours are easy to get and often viewed as disposable

I am not trying to be mean but I have seen it happen with my boys litter mates and I have been involved in rescues . .. and then there are the owners that keep them but they are miserable, neglected and not properly fed. So much can go wrong bringing lives into this world. And unlike a mother planning for her child you will not be keeping them and be the one providing everything and making sure they get what they need
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,766 Posts
That particular comparison doesn't make any sense. The American adoption scene is such that healthy babies are in hot demand. I know parents who have paid $30,000 to adopt a foreign baby because they couldn't get a domestic adoption to work out (after much time, money, and heartbreak involved in trying to get a domestic adoption to work). It's true that older kids are harder to adopt out, because well, having a half-developed human move in with you is a whole different thing than adopting a baby. Dogs don't usually have that kind of emotional baggage. So, I mean, that just isn't a reasonable comparison.

Just about half of dogs produced in this country end up in shelters. That's pretty crummy and I'm sure you don't want that to happen to your dog's offspring (or maybe, if you really don't care about animals, maybe you just don't care what happens to them). So if you do care you'd have to be super careful about who you gave them to. Plus, yeah, dogs do have a lot more babies than humans so that's something to consider.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,041 Posts
I would also like to chime in that people who fall on hard times and land pregnant have personal choices regarding that pregnancy - they can CHOOSE to follow through with the pregnancy and take on the responsibility of the child. They can CHOOSE to go through an adoption agency and place their child with an agency. They can CHOOSE to terminate the pregnancy altogether.

Technically, I have 4 kids. I am not a "breeder" of humans - and the little humans I've created are all well cared for. I kept my first, set up a private adoption for my second prior to his birth with a clause in our agreement that if ANYTHING were to happen to his family or otherwise where he might land in the foster system, I am to be alerted IMMEDIATELY and will pull him out of the system and raise him myself (I still see him regularly), kept my third and I am keeping my fourth. After this baby - I'm getting fixed.

That is not at all comparable to breeding dogs. At all.


Your justification in that your dog has reproductive organs and therefore should be bred is ridiculous.
You dog doesn't need puppies - it's literally all in your head. I've watched many animals happily live out their lives offspring-free with no repercussions.

I'm all for breeding mixed dogs, as long as you're going to do it responsibly - but right now your entire argument is flawed and it's clear your doing this for your own selfish gain.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,271 Posts
Let's look at the "people are more important, so it's fine to do whatever with dogs" line of thought from another angle. Yes. People and their needs are absolutely important. So here you have a family that gets a fluffy little pup for their kid as a birthday present. Now, maybe they don't know much about dogs in general, but they love their kid and the kid loves his dog so they take good care of it. Across town, you have an older lady who bought a pup from that same litter. She knows better than to get a craigslist "designer dog," but she's been lonely since her husband passed away, and she just fell in love with the little fuzzball, so she took it home anyway. And so on.

Fast forward a few months or years. Pups from the litter come down with illnesses that could have been prevented by conscientious breeding. One pup has surgery. Another's owners can't afford it, so they painfully decide to have it put to sleep, and are racked by guilt. One pup, grumpy from pain, bites a child, and is surrendered to the pound, where it is euthanized for bad temperament rather than adopted out.

Who suffers? Who pays the price? Sure, the dogs, but let's ignore the dogs. So many owners and families. And what if one or more of them was ignorant enough to breed more pups from this line? The cost, emotional and financial, is multiplied.

So don't claim in irresponsible breeding you're putting "people" first. When one ignorantly or unethically breeds animals, she or he is putting only herself or himself first.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
704 Posts
When it comes to being humane, I pick humans first and animals the very, very last.
You sound like the exact type of person I would want to buy a dog from.


Well, mixed breeds are less likely to have genetic defects than straight pure breeds, so you're probably right.
I wish you could have met my Joey. He was my first love and my first heartbreak. He was a mixed breed- beagle and german shepherd- bred by someone like you who was irresponsible and selfish, and who just wanted to make a quick buck. His health began degenerating at 3 years old starting with hypothyroidism, then allergies that would cause him sores on his belly that resembled cigarette burns, and the pads of his paws would swell, split and bleed making it excruciating for him just to walk. after that came chronic liver failure that caused him unimaginable pain and the inability to digest most food. and last, but certainly not least, arthritis which made his back legs give out from under him causing him to trip, stumble and fall regularly.
But hey! None of that matters because he was SUCH a cute puppy. Seriously, whoever thought of mixing those breeds...wow, what a good looking dog. he was a stunner. And as long as that person made there money, they had no interest in the mess they created. They broke his body, and my heart.

And as for your analogy, as a human, I can choose whether or not I get pregnant, and also choose whether or not I want to keep the baby if I am pregnant. If i had a severe genetic health problem in my family history likely to affect my future children, i would not have children. If i knew my children would grow up to live in a shelter, unloved and probably die young, i would not have children. A dog gets no say in you breeding them, you have no knowledge of your dogs genetic health record, and given the option, no momma dog would want her babies to wind up unloved, uncared for and euthanized.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,516 Posts
I wish you could have met my Joey. He was my first love and my first heartbreak. He was a mixed breed- beagle and german shepherd- bred by someone like you who was irresponsible and selfish, and who just wanted to make a quick buck. His health began degenerating at 3 years old starting with hypothyroidism, then allergies that would cause him sores on his belly that resembled cigarette burns, and the pads of his paws would swell, split and bleed making it excruciating for him just to walk. after that came chronic liver failure that caused him unimaginable pain and the inability to digest most food. and last, but certainly not least, arthritis which made his back legs give out from under him causing him to trip, stumble and fall regularly.
But hey! None of that matters because he was SUCH a cute puppy. Seriously, whoever thought of mixing those breeds...wow, what a good looking dog. he was a stunner. And as long as that person made there money, they had no interest in the mess they created. They broke his body, and my heart.
IF we're getting anecdotal, my GSD/Beagle I had as a kid had terrible hip dysplasia.

Mixed breeds are not statistically healthier than purebreds. They have the potential to be healthier, from a genetic standpoint. But if you breed two unhealthy dogs together, regardless of breed, you are going to get unhealthy puppies. People breeding unhealthy or untested mixed breeds is actually countermanding the potential health perks having a mixed breed dog may have.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,240 Posts
Hey guys, I can't help but notice none of my three specific questions were answered. But you guys asked me a lot of questions too, so I'll at least try to give answers, paradoxically.

I guess you're wondering why I don't feel guilty about breeding my dog. It's pretty simple: It's because she's a dog. Dogs were born with reproductive organs just like us humans. What's the biggest difference? Humans are more important. Some people say, "It's inhumane to breed your dog because there are so many orphan dogs who do not have a home and will die unfairly." Then these same people go on to have their own biological children without a thought for the 250,000 little humans just in the USA who do not have parents or homes this year, thousands of which will become adults with no concept of being loved and no one to visit on Christmas, forever. In other countries, that statistic can get much more unacceptable. Any puppy my dog gives birth to equals one more dog receiving euthanasia? Then any baby your wife gives birth to equals one more child sitting in foster care, an orphanage, or most likely the streets. Many of these kids sustain detachment disorders, anger management issues, or other emotional trauma. Many are starved, raped, beaten, or die. One of my best friends from high school was one of them. Your kids will sit in class with them.

To make things worse, you do not require yourself, friends, or random strangers on dog forums to win beauty pageants, athletic competitions, or pass genetic testing before procreating. Instead, you assume you deserve to pick some arbitrarily good person and have babies with them. On the other hand, I am sure you will do your best to ensure the people with souls that you choose to add to our world have as good a life as you can help, and I will do my best to do the same for any animals I add to the world. But to me, one orphan child is more sad than billions upon billions of orphan animals. When it comes to being humane, I pick humans first and animals the very, very last. Not many of your responses toward me, a person, were compassionate or respectful, so I know how far humaneness goes here.

On that note, I'm not saying it's wrong to have your awesome, non-pedigree children; I'm saying it's even less wrong to have my awesome, non-pedigree puppies. If you don't want to foster to adopt children (way cheaper than direct adopting) well, I'm certainly not judging. If you have questions about pregnancy or are planning to conceive, I won't degrade you if I suspect your mate isn't a brain surgeon or even a nurse. Finally, I don't expect you to agree with me. This seems like a great forum for people with different priorities from my own. May God bless and keep,

Katelyn
just so you know, i agree with you tjat having random kids is irresponsible and am having no children because i have no desire to and if i ever have a kid i will adopt. i also strongly agree with everything else said in this thread. i think that it's wrong of you to say animals are less important. thaf is not a trait i want in a breeder. if you looked at your animals as something more than money makers then you might realize they are intelligent and emotional just like us.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,658 Posts
Hey guys, I can't help but notice none of my three specific questions were answered. But you guys asked me a lot of questions too, so I'll at least try to give answers, paradoxically.

I guess you're wondering why I don't feel guilty about breeding my dog. It's pretty simple: It's because she's a dog. Dogs were born with reproductive organs just like us humans. What's the biggest difference? Humans are more important. Some people say, "It's inhumane to breed your dog because there are so many orphan dogs who do not have a home and will die unfairly." Then these same people go on to have their own biological children without a thought for the 250,000 little humans just in the USA who do not have parents or homes this year, thousands of which will become adults with no concept of being loved and no one to visit on Christmas, forever. In other countries, that statistic can get much more unacceptable. Any puppy my dog gives birth to equals one more dog receiving euthanasia? Then any baby your wife gives birth to equals one more child sitting in foster care, an orphanage, or most likely the streets. Many of these kids sustain detachment disorders, anger management issues, or other emotional trauma. Many are starved, raped, beaten, or die. One of my best friends from high school was one of them. Your kids will sit in class with them.

To make things worse, you do not require yourself, friends, or random strangers on dog forums to win beauty pageants, athletic competitions, or pass genetic testing before procreating. Instead, you assume you deserve to pick some arbitrarily good person and have babies with them. On the other hand, I am sure you will do your best to ensure the people with souls that you choose to add to our world have as good a life as you can help, and I will do my best to do the same for any animals I add to the world. But to me, one orphan child is more sad than billions upon billions of orphan animals. When it comes to being humane, I pick humans first and animals the very, very last. Not many of your responses toward me, a person, were compassionate or respectful, so I know how far humaneness goes here.

On that note, I'm not saying it's wrong to have your awesome, non-pedigree children; I'm saying it's even less wrong to have my awesome, non-pedigree puppies. If you don't want to foster to adopt children (way cheaper than direct adopting) well, I'm certainly not judging. If you have questions about pregnancy or are planning to conceive, I won't degrade you if I suspect your mate isn't a brain surgeon or even a nurse. Finally, I don't expect you to agree with me. This seems like a great forum for people with different priorities from my own. May God bless and keep,

Katelyn
I have only one response to this:

Most humans don't make babies expressly to give away or sell.
 
41 - 57 of 57 Posts
Top