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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have 2 golden doodles, they are only 6 days apart and are 9 months old. The thing is, one is a male (Asher), and one is a female (rose). The female has not had her first heat cycle yet. We really wanted to wait until a year to spay and neuter any of our dogs (or until rose has had her first heat cycle), but now we're not quite sure what to do. Asher has also been mounting rose a LOT, and I'm pretty sure its just dominance/playing, but I'm not positive.
Should we wait until rose has her first cycle to spay her, or should we not spay her at all? We are positive that we want to wait to neuter Asher until he is a year, but we are just not sure on what to do with Rose. Thanks for any help! (I just want to clarify that waiting a year to neuter Asher is our personal opinion and that's what we choose to do with the research we have done! :))
Edit: I forgot to mention that I just got the female 3 days ago, so none of this is "new", as we JUST got her. Just wanted to mention that!! :D
 

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You will get opinions (heated ones) ranging from ASAP, to Wait to Never.

I myself have generally gotten rescues that are spayed or neutered prior to adoption.
 

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For people who are very dog experienced who show/sport/work their dogs (or heavily dog obsessed/educated).. I advise waiting until their dogs are fully grown. There are hormonal and structural benefits.

For people who are regular pet owners.. I heavily advise spaying and neutering earlier (6m-1yr) than later. Especially with two intact genders in the house, I would not take that chance. Even experienced breeders have accidents.. and it takes serious dedication to prevent a litter. I would spay the female. Pyometra, mammary cancer etc are real concerns in females and can happen even on the first heat cycle.

If you plan on letting her go through a cycle.. you must be able to check her vulva very frequently, be very aware of any change in behavior (because pyo), do a lot of research on heat cycles (it isn't pretty), and keep her 100% confined from the male, and other males during the cycle (some send their males away). The mass majority of pet dogs are spayed/neutered by 6 months old and they are just fine.
 

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As RonE said, you'll get opinions ranging from now to never. Here's the big question: how confident (honestly) are you that you will absolutely be able to keep them separated and not have an accidental breeding happen? If the answer is "I'm not sure if I can", then the best option is to alter one or both of the now.

If the mounting is a recent development, then she could be starting to come into season. Have you noticed any swelling of her vulva? That is usually the first sign, followed by a reddish discharge, which will typically change to a yellowish discharge as she gets close to ovulating, and then the discharge usually turns reddish again as she starts going out of season. The usual thought is a week coming in, a week in, and a week going out. I say usual, but be aware that dogs don't always read the book... my friend's Doberman bitch had what is called a split heat for her first cycle.
 

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Here's the big question: how confident (honestly) are you that you will absolutely be able to keep them separated and not have an accidental breeding happen?
This. Also, if you think it's merely a matter of keeping them apart, you should know that sometimes males go something like berserk. They get destructive. I have a friend whose male went through a door to get to his sister. I know people who sedate males because they get so crazy. I know people who put their males in a boarding situation for the duration for the same reason. At best a lot of them will stop eating and be miserable if they can smell a female in heat they can't get to.

And I think you'd better decide what to do quickly. All of my females would have been through their first heat already at the age of your girl, and it sounds as if the behavior you describe from your male could be the first signs that he notices her scent has changed as she's starting to come in.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
As RonE said, you'll get opinions ranging from now to never. Here's the big question: how confident (honestly) are you that you will absolutely be able to keep them separated and not have an accidental breeding happen? If the answer is "I'm not sure if I can", then the best option is to alter one or both of the now.

If the mounting is a recent development, then she could be starting to come into season. Have you noticed any swelling of her vulva? That is usually the first sign, followed by a reddish discharge, which will typically change to a yellowish discharge as she gets close to ovulating, and then the discharge usually turns reddish again as she starts going out of season. The usual thought is a week coming in, a week in, and a week going out. I say usual, but be aware that dogs don't always read the book... my friend's Doberman bitch had what is called a split heat for her first cycle.
No, he's done It before. He just haven't been around another dog long enough (I think) to do It. He's even mounted my head when I was playing with him before (insert face palm here). And we just got her 3 days ago.
No, everything looks normal, and there is not any discharge or blood. And since we got her even 3 days ago we have been watching them nonstop, so I don't thinks she's starting.
And like I said, we've been watching her, she I am pretty sure well be able to separate them. We have 6 people in the house, and all are keeping a lookout.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
This. Also, if you think it's merely a matter of keeping them apart, you should know that sometimes males go something like berserk. They get destructive. I have a friend whose male went through a door to get to his sister. I know people who sedate males because they get so crazy. I know people who put their males in a boarding situation for the duration for the same reason. At best a lot of them will stop eating and be miserable if they can smell a female in heat they can't get to.

And I think you'd better decide what to do quickly. All of my females would have been through their first heat already at the age of your girl, and it sounds as if the behavior you describe from your male could be the first signs that he notices her scent has changed as she's starting to come in.
yeah, I've heard of males going crazy like that.
And like I mentioned in a rely I just wrote, we just got her 3 days ago, and he's mounted us before (he's even mounted my head before when we were playing). He's never done It to another dog but he honestly haven't been with another dog really long ago to do that.
 

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For people who are very dog experienced who show/sport/work their dogs (or heavily dog obsessed/educated).. I advise waiting until their dogs are fully grown. There are hormonal and structural benefits.

For people who are regular pet owners.. I heavily advise spaying and neutering earlier (6m-1yr) than later. Especially with two intact genders in the house, I would not take that chance. Even experienced breeders have accidents.. and it takes serious dedication to prevent a litter. I would spay the female. Pyometra, mammary cancer etc are real concerns in females and can happen even on the first heat cycle.

If you plan on letting her go through a cycle.. you must be able to check her vulva very frequently, be very aware of any change in behavior (because pyo), do a lot of research on heat cycles (it isn't pretty), and keep her 100% confined from the male, and other males during the cycle (some send their males away). The mass majority of pet dogs are spayed/neutered by 6 months old and they are just fine.
If there are hormonal & structural benefits for dogs like you mentioned first, wouldn't It be the same for regular pet owners? But yes, I understand what you mean with 2 intact dogs, and I am really considering spaying her very soon now.
 

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If there are hormonal & structural benefits for dogs like you mentioned first, wouldn't It be the same for regular pet owners?
Yes, the benefits of waiting till they are completely mature are the same for pet dogs as for competition dogs. However, all of us have to weigh all the pros and cons. Are the chances of an accidental breeding high enough to outweigh other considerations? Think about that. There are health dangers to aborting an unwanted litter, or alternatively, consequences to birthing and raising a litter (for you and for her).

With a male you get considerations of unwanted sexual behavior such as marking and humping (which may or may not disappear with neutering but if they are going to mitigate, the chances are better with an early neuter) in addition to more tendency to want to escape and roam, and of course, the responsibility of your dog siring an unwanted litter.

For some of us competitive folks there are still considerations. For instance, I spayed one of my girls after I had to cancel my entry in a drafting competition when she came in heat. Bitches can compete at shows in conformation classes in heat, but most working competitions such as obedience don't allow it. She already had been through a couple of heats, I'm never going to breed any of my dogs, and I didn't want to be worrying about whether my chance at some anticipated event would disappear twice a year like that. There are only a couple of drafting tests in this area a year.

So be sure to evaluate all the pros and cons for your situation. I'd still be most concerned about the chance of an accidental litter with both male and female in the house. I know some experienced breeders who have had it happen.
 

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P.S. I should mention that one of my current Rottie girls is the product of an "oops" litter from a respected breeder. Her mother and father are first cousins. Fortunately for that breeder, there were only 4 in the litter because people weren't standing in line for one of those puppies.
 

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It's best to wait until the dog is done growing to spay/neuter, but if you're only going to fix one now, I'd fix the female, because there are also significant health benefits to spaying, like dramatically lowering the risk of pyometra and mammary tumors. (Mammary tumors are common in lifelong intact females but very rare in females spayed before first heat.)
 

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Carrying and birthing a litter can be a lot harder on the body and more dangerous than the issues you risk by spaying early. Especially when the mother is still a growing puppy herself. That's the main reason many people suggest spaying earlier if the owner is inexperienced or not confident about being able to prevent pregnancy. Spaying also prevents more serious issues than neutering, and age of spay matters more than age of neuter in terms of prevention of future issues. My understanding is that the risk of mammary cancer is significantly lowered if the female has had no to only a couple heats before spay vs. if they were spayed later in life and have had many heats. Someone can feel free to correct me if I'm remembering wrong!

Basically, as others have said, it's a lot about balancing the risks and benefits and what you personally feel is realistic for you to handle. I currently live in a country where you actually can't spay or neuter without a medical or behavioral reason, and overall there are far fewer homeless dogs here than in the US, so managing two intact dogs of opposite genders is absolutely doable. But make sure you read up on signs of heat (especially first heats, which can be weird or more subtle) and consider keeping them separated when you can't directly supervise. It's not a bad idea when you have a new dog and they're still working out dynamics between them anyway, regardless of sex or reproductive status.

Just as a funny aside, my older dog is a humper and marks like crazy (outside, thankfully). He was a pediatric neuter, around 8 weeks. So I'm not too big a believer in neutering changing behaviors that aren't obviously and significantly hormonal.
 

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The reason Murphy isnt regestered is because his daddy did the dirty deed at 10 months old...(too young according to the rules)
The owners hadnt noticed any sexual behaviour from him before but as their other dog came into heat he just went wild and before they could act the deed was done..
 

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If there are hormonal & structural benefits for dogs like you mentioned first, wouldn't It be the same for regular pet owners? But yes, I understand what you mean with 2 intact dogs, and I am really considering spaying her very soon now.
Yes, somewhat.

When most people get a dog for a pet.. they will take it on walks, play ball in the yard, maybe do fun tricks.. nothing too crazy. If my dog is a working dog or a sport dog, their joints and muscles will truly be put the test. The repeated harsh impact on joints is going to be more of an issue for those working/sporting than a pet in most cases. In reality what matters even more is good structure that was created by good breeding choices to begin with.. but that's another issue altogether. :)

And also what others said, about balancing pros and cons in your particular situation.
 

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As mentioned, you have to decide if the possible benefits of waiting to alter a dog outweigh the issues of dealing with intact dogs.

Bitches will typically cycle twice a year, meaning that there are periods when you will need to be extremely vigilant with her. Some bitches have very little discharge, and/or keep themselves clean, while others have heavy discharge and leave puddles everywhere. Dogs may mark more than usual when their housemate is in season, and may or may not be determined to breed her at all cost.

I've been in the "alter early" group for a long time, but in light of recent studies, I'm now more inclined to let my bitches go through at least a couple of cycles before spaying them, and would probably keep a male intact indefinitely, assuming there is no medical reason to neuter. That said, I wouldn't want to try keeping an intact opposite sex pair. One of both of them would be altered.
 

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I have 2 golden doodles, they are only 6 days apart and are 9 months old. The thing is, one is a male (Asher), and one is a female (rose). The female has not had her first heat cycle yet. We really wanted to wait until a Showbox jiofi.local.html tplinklogin year to spay and neuter any of our dogs (or until rose has had her first heat cycle), but now we're not quite sure what to do. Asher has also been mounting rose a LOT, and I'm pretty sure its just dominance/playing, but I'm not positive.
Should we wait until rose has her first cycle to spay her, or should we not spay her at all? We are positive that we want to wait to neuter Asher until he is a year, but we are just not sure on what to do with Rose. Thanks for any help! (I just want to clarify that waiting a year to neuter Asher is our personal opinion and that's what we choose to do with the research we have done! :))
Edit: I forgot to mention that I just got the female 3 days ago, so none of this is "new", as we JUST got her. Just wanted to mention that!! :D
Her mother and father are first cousins. Fortunately for that breeder, there were only 4 in the litter because people weren't standing in line for one of those puppies.
 

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It's best to wait until the dog is done growing to spay/neuter, but if you're only going to fix one now, I'd fix the female, because there are also significant health benefits to spaying, like dramatically lowering the risk of pyometra and mammary tumors. (Mammary tumors are common in lifelong intact females but very rare in females spayed before first heat.)
The mass majority of pet dogs are spayed/neutered by 6 months old and they are just fine.
 

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The mass majority of pet dogs are spayed/neutered by 6 months old and they are just fine.
That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but it runs contrary to much of the recent research.
 

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A few things........

And this is just me.....
This is based both on data, studies etc....... And over 40 years now of dealing with breeding dogs.... etc...

1) I would not spay any Bitc h before she was 24 months. The last couple of litters we have done we have written Not before 24 months and 36 months preferred.

2) If you are responsible, I am not going to push a puppy buyer into neutering a male. And I am not selling a puppy to someone I do not deem responsible. IF they do want to neuter..... In the breed I am involved with it is 36 months.

3) Humping is social not sexual....

4) Marking is territorial not sexual.

5) I have never had a male that was not manageable with a bit ch in heat around.....
 

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And a dog can change dramatically between two and four years.....
263155

263154


263156
263157


Same dog..... Top two photos at two years of age.... Bottom two photos around 3.5 years of age....

Without the hormones, you don't get the added thicker bone, depth of chest, muscle mass, etc.
 
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