[wvasko]

Well I'm not a small dog person but a Pug would be one of my very 1st choices cause I think they are cool. ( I don't know if this helps your little dogs after being abused by the bad person)

 

[LittleFr0g]

You clearly have excellent taste then wvasko! Pugs are extremely cool! I find the idea of a Pug being fragile rather hysterical as well. My Pug runs circles around Labs and Goldens, has no spinal problems, no breathing problems, and has never had a tail infection. I've NEVER heard of a Pug having a tail infection, lol. I'm a member of a local Pug group, and an international Pug forum, and Kuma is by no means unusual either.

 

[Inga]

Trust me, if you want to talk about health problems, I've owned the #1 breed for them (English Bulldogs). However it's mostly from poor breeding practices, especially here in San Diego where the EB is the #3 breed owned and we have a guy that imports poorly bred EBs from Eastern European puppymills, he also breeds Labradoodles and Mastweilers.

Oh yes, I have known several English Bulldogs with health issues. I do have an issue with the breeding of any breed of dog that cannot even whelp on its own. My friends English Bulldog was a constant problem. It's tail had to be completely removed because it was growing back into the dogs spine it was curled so tight. The under bite has become so extreme it causes all kinds of breathing issues and dental problems. That said, I am sure there are people that love them. I do too. I just could not condone breeding a dog that has such known health issues. Made me sad seeing my friends dogs.

Oh, and Mastweilers? yeah, we really need those.

 

[BorderWars]

And how do you go about testing that? If you don't really work your dogs (which you said you don't) then what do you need to breed them for? Obviously you don't show or trial and you don't sound like you do sports.

How do you go about increasing genetic diversity? Is that the idea about crossing show lines and working lines that I've heard mentioned?

Oh drop the pretense. You haven't heard anything mentioned, you've spent your time trying to google who I am and find anything you can to throw in my face and make this personal.

I don't believe many people "really" "work" their dogs. Let me rephrase, their Border Collies. There are scant few other breeds that have any "work" at all.

But I do what people who call it work, do. I take my dogs out and train them and myself on moving sheep. But this is for fun and I have no illusions about that. And I've shown, won ribbons, and think it's useless. But if you actually spend some time reading my blog and looking at the hundreds and hundreds of photos, you'll see that we do flyball, Frisbee, and Agility. Last time I looked, those were sports.

But again, all this is entirely irrelevant. You are trying to trash talk simply because you can't debate. This thread isn't about Border Collies or me, it's about "breeding mutts."

Playing private eye character assassination is juvenile. Please move along unless you have something to say about the arguments that are relevant instead of irrelevant digging in who I am.

You clearly have excellent taste then wvasko! Pugs are extremely cool! I find the idea of a Pug being fragile rather hysterical as well. My Pug runs circles around Labs and Goldens, has no spinal problems, no breathing problems, and has never had a tail infection. I've NEVER heard of a Pug having a tail infection, lol. I'm a member of a local Pug group, and an international Pug forum, and Kuma is by no means unusual either.

Feel free to watch Pedigree Dogs Exposed. They do a wonderful job of documenting all the problems in Pugs.

 

[cshellenberger]

Borderwars,
Please refrain from telling other members what to do or what they can discuss in a thread. That's the job of the Moderators.

 

[BorderWars]

Hybrid Vigor. It does not exist, health problems can not be avoided by mixing breeds.

It does. What you're saying is just show people lies. It's very real and it works. I'm not going to bother going line by line on a link from a BULL DOG breeder. They can't even reproduce themselves, they require C-sections to deliver and rape-cages to even get pregnant.

There is little genetically healthy or natural about the bulldog.

At least no one really "works" them any more... baiting bulls is barbaric.

On the same token, Purebreds aren't unhealthy on the basis of being inbred

Oh yes they are. If you want to deny this, go ahead, it will only spell doom (and likely already has) for whatever dogs you are involved in.

Please find me one example of an inbreeder who has taken some "unhealthy" breed and made it healthy. There is not a single genetic disease which has ever been bred out of dogs.

And the trends are all going negative for health and longevity. Dogs aren't living longer or healthier by being inbred.


And health testing and hybrids are not mutually exclusive and they in no way inhibit each other.

The TRUTH is that there are more problems, many more, than there are tests for. Outcrossing has a much greater chance of diluting those problems, even when breeding blind.

No one is saying that blind outcrossing is going to guarantee healthy dogs without diseases.... nothing except gene manipulation in a lab can remove a carrier gene. The only way humans can do so is to breed away from those genes. Hybrids are, by definition, and reality, less likely to have the genes you want to get away from.

The genes don't disappear, they are simply prevented from doubling up to a much greater degree than happens when you have both a highly homozygous breed and you inbreed.

It has been proven to work in dogs, simply look up the Dalmatian backcross. That is the proof of out-crossing.

And purebreds ARE diseased because they are inbred. Bad genes that people either can't or don't test for, that they don't want, get concentrated right along with the "good" genes they do want.

People inbreed to concentrate the genes, to achieve homozygosity. To make sure that the dog is guaranteed to pass along the same genes every breeding and every generation.

This concentrates the disease genes, just like the coat color or anything else people breed for.

Humans and dogs share diploid status. We have two copies of each gene, and they may not be the same. If each copy is the same, we are homozygous. If they are different, we are heterozygous.

If I have a dog that has a brand new mutation in one gene, and it's ok if he just has one copy, but deadly if he has two... then that brand new mutation is not a problem until someone inbreeds on my dog, because that is the only way that the new mutation is ever going to double up. (It could occur randomly in another dog, but this is a one in a bazillion chance).

But if my dog is a hot dog and then hundreds of people stud him and then as the generations go down, people eventually recross those lines, then that mutated gene can get doubled up. It doesn't happen any other way.

And this is exactly what happens with inbred, purebred dogs.

Borderwars,
Please refrain from telling other members what to do or what they can discuss in a thread. That's the job of the Moderators.

Then why don't you do your job as a moderator and delete the posts that are trying to dig up irrelevant things from my blog?

Not only is it off topic, it's meant to harass me and distort the truth. One poster is even suggesting that I traffic in naked pictures! They obviously can't read and see that I was pointing out how stupid and hypocritical the people in said photo were being.

I haven't asked anyone to post their IQs or their salaries or where they went to school and what degrees they have, nor how they breed their dogs or what dogs they have. I find the "let me find something I can use to hurt BorderWars by digging on his blog" very juvenile and against this forum's code of conduct rules.

 

[Laurelin]

I think it's very relevant. You've said x is useless, y is useless. so what's the point? Why breed if there's no point?

No, I haven't googled you at all. I just remembered reading something a long time ago.

 

[BorderWars]

Thank you pugmom, that saves me the trouble, LOL.
What a joke. You obviously aren't in America. I can't think of any dog SHELTER that would kill local dogs so they import dogs from other states and Mexico.

Read this, then google "shelter import mexico" or "animal shelter import"... be creative. You might learn something.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/call7investigators/14194783/detail.html

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_11189913

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/download/2008/1211/18249402.pdf

The Colorado (that's in the USA, last time I checked) Humane Society and SPCA has just been busted because they:

Euthanized nearly 30% of animals at their Englewood facility despite advertising themselves as a "No-Kill" shelter with a 92% adoption rate.

Falsified reports to the Secretary of State and the Department of Agriculture, distorting the number of animals adopted, returned, transferred, and euthanized to artificially maintain the organization's claimed euthanasia rate.

Regularly killed dogs that were not "gravely ill or injured, of advanced age and inform or aggressive to make room at the shelter for more 'adoptable' animals."

Falsely claimed that animals killed at the shelter's discretion were killed at owner request, exploiting PACFA regulations allowing PTS animals to not be counted toward euthanization rates.

Made room for small breeds and puppies by selectively killing larger dogs.
Initiated in-transfers of hand picked smaller dogs and puppies from out of state shelters despite having no room for them, necessitating the needless euthanasia of larger dogs who were taking up more space.

Improperly disposed of euthanized animals in dumpsters.

Ongoing use of expired medications and vaccines.

Diverted thousands of donated dollars for personal use and commingled CHS finances with the personal finances of the directors.

Gross mismanagement of CHS finances.

Failed to register the CHS under the Charitable Solicitations Act, collecting nearly $3 million in donations illegally.

Spent $32,000 of the $66,154 collected to aid Katrina rescues on payroll while spending less than $16,000 on Katrina expenses.

Spent at least $1,000 of the Katrina money to reimburse travel to Mississippi prior to the hurricane.

Used a donated Mercedes Benz as a personal vehicle instead of selling it to raise money for the shelter as intended by the donor and the requirements of the car donation program.

Failed to make payroll and bounced salary checks multiple times despite the intake of sufficient donations, incurring over $14,000 in overdraft fees on the payroll account.

Failed to fill the Board of Directors to the required seven members, failed to follow the bylaws requiring term limits and failed to have a Chairman for at least the last four years, invalidating the legality of all contracts and agreements of the CHS.

I think it's very relevant. You've said x is useless, y is useless. so what's the point? Why breed if there's no point?

No, I haven't googled you at all. I just remembered reading something a long time ago.

Everyone breeds because they want to. No one is putting a gun to the head of anyone demanding they breed dogs. No one is going to die if any one breeder doesn't breed.

I didn't say anything was useless. I said justifying inbreeding dogs for show was irresponsible. I said justifying inbreeding dogs for trials is irresponsible. And I said that I.... I.... don't choose to place conformation or trial results as the most important things to me.

You can read why I got into breeding on my blog, but the short of it is that there are very few breeders in my area, and I don't like the trends of where the breed is going the last 10 years. It took me a long time, several years, to find dogs who were not highly inbred, from breeders who did testing and had a more versatile view of the breed. And who had previous litters that I could meet and evaluate.

I'm not out to save the breed for anyone but myself. And I've found excellent homes for all the puppies I didn't keep. Luckily, those homes agreed with the traits that I like and wanted dogs like my dogs.

Everything else is just window dressing. It wouldn't matter if I didn't have a contract or didn't take my dogs back or any of those things if the underlying qualities were actually crap.

 

[cshellenberger]

Borderwars,
You have been walking a VERY thin line on this site. By telling a mod how to do their job, you've crossed it.

 

[MyRescueCrew]

That's a shelter that got busted for wrong doing. You won't find too many reputable shelters importing dogs from Mexico.

be creative. You might learn something.

Be polite. You might learn some manners.

Thank God! *Hugs Carla*

 

[Codabella]

I never understood how people who go out and PURCHASE pure bred dogs when healthy dogs in need are ignored at shelters.

If we decided to breed for temperament and ignore ridiculous physical standards we might not have so many with no home. We can breed for character and ignore physical features like unnaturally long or short noses, which in the end shouldn't matter.

A varied gene pool is the healthiest existence for a species. The very essence of breeding today is minimizing the pool and giving dogs unnatural health problems that continue through generations.

Go to a shelter and stop buying purebreds

 

[LittleFr0g]

lol, I had a little private bet with myself about how long it would take Borderwars to get himself banned, and I won.

 

[Great Dane]

I never understood how people who go out and PURCHASE pure bred dogs when healthy dogs in need are ignored at shelters.

If we decided to breed for temperament and ignore ridiculous physical standards we might not have so many with no home. We can breed for character and ignore physical features like unnaturally long or short noses, which in the end shouldn't matter.

A varied gene pool is the healthiest existence for a species. The very essence of breeding today is minimizing the pool and giving dogs unnatural health problems that continue through generations.

Go to a shelter and stop buying purebreds

Um, excuse me?

I will do whatever I want when I go out and purchase a dog. Shelter dogs are all fine and dandy and I commend the people who rescue them but people who seek out reputable breeders and want a great purebred dog from champion lines and very strong lineage, what's wrong with that exactly?

People talk about purebred owners being snobby?

Seems like you just have something against purebred dogs in my opinion.

Borderwars,
You have been walking a VERY thin line on this site. By telling a mod how to do their job, you've crossed it.

I was just starting to have fun too.

I actually enjoyed his view points.

 

[Tmarie423]

I never understood how people who go out and PURCHASE pure bred dogs when healthy dogs in need are ignored at shelters.
I do so because I love the Rottweiler Breed and I applaud what COE breeders do to maintain the breed and the breed standard, while working hard to improve the breed in general. I've also rescued rotti's, but NO ONE will tell me that I can't contact the COE breeder that I know and respect and obtain one of their puppies if I want too.
If we decided to breed for temperament and ignore ridiculous physical standards we might not have so many with no home. We can breed for character and ignore physical features like unnaturally long or short noses, which in the end shouldn't matter.
Are you serious? I understand completely about you wanting people to adopt from shelters, but you obviously do not understand the world of purebred dogs at all.
A varied gene pool is the healthiest existence for a species.

The very essence of breeding today is minimizing the pool and giving dogs unnatural health problems that continue through generations.
I completely disagree. Please state the facts to back up this argument? COE breeders work tirelessly with the best lines to improve the breed and the over all health issues related to a specific breed. No they can't snap their fingers and all threat of disease disappear, but they work hard to create a great dogs who meet breed standard.
Go to a shelter and stop buying purebreds

I will always have a purebred rottweiler, period. ; )
My Zena girl is a purebred rottweiler and I done nothing wrong for bringing my girl home. I also have my little rescue fur baby Cain. Their absolutely precious. And with your way of thinking there would eventually be an end to the wonderful rottweiler breed, with the exception of poorly bred, unstable rotti's from BYB's and puppy mills. So I will stand by the COE breeders I know personally because they truly love the breed and desire to make it better. Better yet with your way of thinking it would be the end of all breeds with the exception of puppy mills and BYB's. So thanks, but no thanks.

COE breeders breed their dogs in an effort to better the breed, this includes healthwise. They aim at producing stable, healthy, well rounded dogs with good temprements. I believe puppy mills and BYB's should STOP breeding, but the COE breeders is what keeps our wonderful breeds going and they do not breed often. People should, however, STOP buying purebreds from puppy mills or BYB's because there is no telling what you're getting into.

As for going to a shelter to get your pet, that is a good idea, as is rescue, but people should refrain from paying for purebred puppies from BYB and puppymills, this includes pet stores, malls, etc.etc. If you want a purebred people, do your research and talk to several COE breeders before making a decision. : )

 

[reverend_maynard]

What a ridiculous banning.

 

[wvasko]

That's a shelter that got busted for wrong doing. You won't find too many reputable shelters importing dogs from Mexico.



Be polite. You might learn some manners.

Thank God! *Hugs Carla*

Carla
Another thank you from me. You must be very good with dogs as when training dogs patience is a very high priority. You have shown much patience but it was time. Pug owners among others will fall to sleep with small smiles on their faces.(me too)

 

[cshellenberger]

I never understood how people who go out and PURCHASE pure bred dogs when healthy dogs in need are ignored at shelters.

If we decided to breed for temperament and ignore ridiculous physical standards we might not have so many with no home. We can breed for character and ignore physical features like unnaturally long or short noses, which in the end shouldn't matter.

A varied gene pool is the healthiest existence for a species. The very essence of breeding today is minimizing the pool and giving dogs unnatural health problems that continue through generations.

Go to a shelter and stop buying purebreds

I own purebreeds AND I rescue (State Coordinator for Mastiff rescue) it's possible to do BOTH, you just have to find the right breeder. I have a breeder that will take back ANY offspring if they need to be rehomed so her dogs DO NOT end up in shelters or rescue. She also does rescue for her chosen breed.

As far as breeders minimizing the gene pool, it's not true. Reputable breders use dogs from other lines that aren't related to their dogs to outcross. I know many in the Dobe world that are crossing American lines with Euro and South American lines to improve work drive, structure and health. I may be joining these ranks when my husband retires from the military and I'm not moving around so much.

When it comes to features that are exagerated, yes it can have some draw backs, but often those features were originally bred in for a function; the short nose of the bulldog and related breeds was to help it breath when it had a bull by the nose, the Flews of the Mastiff and other breeds that were protection/hunting to keep blood from gagging the dog when it was on a kill, the short legs of the Dachshund so it could go down a badger hole and the dwarfism of the corgi to keep it from getting kicked by the cattle it herded. They weren't bred for fashion, but for function.

Before you make such broad statements you should do some research. not everything you read online is 100% true, there are alot of people with agendas that twist facts to their liking such as the one earlier in the thread. Look at all sides of the debate and remember that.

 

[Inga]

Thank You Carla! :d

Codabella Our local shelter is usually running at about 60% purebreds. There are also all kinds of purebred dog rescues. If a person wants a purebred dog there are multiple options for them that do NOT cause over production of dogs. Staying away from the millers and byb is the best way. Adopting a dog from a rescue or purchasing from a reputable breeder is the other way. The problem people have with the reputable breeder is sometimes you will have to wait for a dog. They do not have a dog at the ready right away. They breed only after they have enough approved homes for their puppies.

 

[sw_df27]

well I will always own purebreeds and infact the next purebreed we get will be from the shelter our shelter is full of purebreed dogs that are surrenders that come with papers............. Oh and I never paid a penny for any of the purebreed dogs I have ever owned.

 

[Sirtexx]

One big problem I can see is that the 2 dogs being bred with all the health tests and temperament tests etc could indeed pass tests/exams etc with flying colors. What about their parents/grandparents, great grandparents etc. Who tested them? I believe this is another question throw out here that will just a useless ruckus. Instead of asking what's wrong with the breeding, the question should be what's right with it. I'm in and out of this thread. Everybody have fun and play nice.

I believe to that 50 or 75 yrs and much longer ago when many breeds were started there was much more control of the started new breed. Now when somebody hears about a doodle online they want to try their hand at doodling. then you have new doodles coming up all over the world. I don't believe this helps start anything. I hope all this doodling was not confusing.

Well some dogs are succeful at that and others are not... humans aren't animals and communication has existed for along time even after the grave its all about really approving of someone when it comes to humans