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I came across a picture that looks like my bear and it went to a website about 'shiloh german shepherds'. What are they? :confused:
 

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they a a giant breed 90-150 pounds that was created for companionship. GSD, great Pyrenese, and malamute was mixed in. They were supposed to be bred for thier health (I don't think it worked) and calmness.
 

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they a a giant breed 90-150 pounds that was created for companionship. GSD, great Pyrenese, and malamute was mixed in. They were supposed to be bred for thier health (I don't think it worked) and calmness.
They are pretty dogs. So they are pretty much mutts, right? The one looked like my Bear.
 

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Yup, mutts....that tend towards flighty/reactive in temperament...
 

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I thought Shilohs were supposed to be a coated version of the GSD and King Shepherds were the the ones that were being bred to be bigger and calmer? I can't keep up anymore.
 

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I think Xeph means that many "Shilohs" tend to go be overly and unreasonably reactive to loud noise, sudden motion, etc... lacking the confidance that is so admirable in the ideal German shepherd.

sheltiemom: Coated versions of the GSD are simply long coat German shepherds/coaties. Shiloh shepherds were bred in an attempt to rid the GSD of the drive and energy to create a placid, calm family pet. I think King shepherds might be bred under the same motive as the Shiloh shepherd, but I can't be sure. We'll have to wait for Xeph's response.
 

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King vs. Shilo- I thought one of them was supposed tobe calm and the other a return to how GSD's used to be. Not sure which is which since both have failed in thier mission to be better GSD's and have now just become glorified mutts. I've only met one "Shilo" shepherd in real life, other than the ones I've seen at pet expos. Interestingly all the ones I've seen at pet expos were penned towards the back of the booth/display so you couldn't pet them and they never took any of them out to meet the crowd, don't know if there's any signifigance to that but it was quite odd. And the one Shilo I met was completely unpredictable and nearly impossible to work with. It was the kind of dog that would wag it's tail while it was chewing off your arm.
 

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I think Xeph means that many "Shilohs" tend to go be overly and unreasonably reactive to loud noise, sudden motion, etc... lacking the confidance that is so admirable in the ideal German shepherd. .
The Shiloh is not a "mutt". Let's not throw this breed into the same dumpster as the "Doodle-dogs"...

In Canada, we see a lot of them at the Rare Breed shows; from this, one would surmise that they're on the road to becoming an "official breed", fully recognized by the CKC (which is not necessarily a good thing); with the obvious "division in the ranks" of breeders, at best, this will undoubtedly be a long and rocky road. I would suspect the situation is similar in the US, with the AKC?

The fact that, "many Shilohs tend to be overly and unreasonably reactive to loud noise, sudden motion, etc..." should come as no surprise. Sadly, I suspect this is true of every single Working Breed ... What percentage of GS's, Rotties and Dobes (for example), would you consider to be "ideal". And what, exactly, is "ideal" ...

The term "ideal" is open to a wide variety of interpretations (even when you examine the breed descriptions) ... especially as more and more lines from Working Breeds are being bred specifically for the show ring, or for family pets.
 

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The ones I know are very well behaved and not quick to be reactive. We have a shiloh shepherd club here and I saw them at the dog park once and they flow so effortlessly it's amazing, and were very well behaved. And our dog park is right next to a busy street and loud noises(construction).
 

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Hi Eris13021,

My name is Dave Herz. I am a Shiloh Shepherd enthusiast, owner, breeder, and avid supporter.

The commentary provided so far in response to your question it inaccurate, so I will endeavour to assist.

I haven't been on this site in some time, but a friend commented last night that there were some folks with misguided information regarding our breed.

First, I'd like to recommend that you revisit an at length discussion regarding our breed on this very site at http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/23661-ever-ok-breed-shiloh.html.

Second, it always digresses to the same opinions from usually the same folks, and rather than providing them with the same responses and entering a discussion on said topic for the "umpeenth" time, the "search" button on the forum is a great source for discovering past discussions where breed information has been discussed at length previously.

Having said that, on with my humble response.

You'll likely recognize that a good portion of the respondents to date have been GSD owners or enthusiasts. That's quite alright, but that certainly does not make them versed with the Shiloh Shepherd breed. Just as I would not profess to have in depth knowledge on a Yorkie. I've yet to see anyone who owns a Shiloh provide commentary here so far in this thread.

Let's begin with the name. Shiloh Shepherd. Not "Shiloh German Shepherd". Albeit the breed has a foundation of GSD bloodlines, the breed is not a GSD, nor professes to be one. It's a breed unto itself which will attain national kennel club (CKC/AKC/etc) recognition eventually if we continue on our current path.

For those that chose the term "mutts", they really require a history refresher, as I will gladly demonstrate how most every breed was a combination of other breeds to construct certainly trails. So, at this point I won't waste any bandwidth responding to such comments.

Perhaps one of the classic examples of recent breed development is how German Shepherds developed just 70 years prior to the Shiloh. When Von Stephanitz created his breed in 1899. Which in the grand scheme of things is but a split second earlier versus the Shilohs when compared to some of the more established or ancient breeds. The list goes on an on, Dobes, Rotties, Labs... all were by "design" and were once "mutts" (as some here like to call dogs comprised of other breeds at one point).

The simple fact of the matter is that the breed is flourishing courtesy their softer temperament and laid back personality when compared with GSD cousins who require a "tougher" temperament in order to maintain true to their purpose.

Comments such as
"...many "Shilohs" tend to go be overly and unreasonably reactive to loud noise, sudden motion, etc... lacking the confidance that is so admirable in the ideal German shepherd."
are simply uneducated, naive, and slanderous.

Actually the Shilohs for the vast majority have excellent, calm, confident temperaments which make them more suitable for family environments than some of their GSD forefathers. I would venture to guess that per capita there are more Shilohs with CGC/CGN with Gunshot than GSDs (per capita).

The breed has excelled in Therapy Dog work courtesy their size (which makes for ideal contact) and personality.

And for a comment like
"lacking the confidance that is so admirable in the ideal German shepherd".
Then why is the GSD the most commonly found dog in Humane Society Shelters? The fact is that the GSD, if true to the definition of Von Stephanitz's vision, is not meant to be a great family dog in the 21st century. That's not saying there aren't great GSD family pets.

"Interestingly all the ones I've seen at pet expos were penned towards the back of the booth/display so you couldn't pet them and they never took any of them out to meet the crowd"
Hi Animalcraker, which show was this? I know we attend the Toronto Sportsmen Show and the All About Pets Show and the dogs are all our mingling all day long. At Sportsmen we must have had about 30 out. Same with at the RBCSWO Shows up here in Canada.

And could you please elaborate on your comment
It was the kind of dog that would wag it's tail while it was chewing off your arm
How did you come to this assessment? Although, my pack does eat purely raw, and certainly do wag their tails while chomping down a pork neck.

You also state
King vs. Shilo- I thought one of them was supposed tobe calm and the other a return to how GSD's used to be. Not sure which is which since both have failed in thier mission to be better GSD's and have now just become glorified mutts
I'm not sure who has professed to be better than a GSD. Frankly, I could care less about GSDs as it's not the breed I'm involved with. Just as I could care less about any other breed out there. I don't say that to be mean, but rather that I only concern myself with the person in the mirror, the dogs in my pack, and the progeny we produce. The biggest problem in the dog world is too many people spend too much time worrying about what other breeds/breeders/owners are doing versus what's at the end of their own leash, or in their own pack/breeding program.

And regarding the King Shepherds. Shelly Watts formed the King Shepherds as an offshoot of the Shiloh. Look at a Pedigree and you'll see where they split off on their own direction.

Keechak, there is no Great Pyrenese in the breed. And I'm not sure about your 150 lbs. My male in one of the larger Shilohs at just over 31" and he is kept at approximately 125-128 lbs. I suppose you could get them up that high if you wanted a really fat dog.

And one of the focuses on the breed is definitely health, and is something we as breeders strive to constantly better. Hips, heart, elbows, eyes, thyroid, TLI, are all items we screen for prior to breeding. Heath reports are available on breeder's websites etc.

Eris10321, I think if you do some research you can find an opportunity to get out and meet some Shilohs in person and draw your own conclusions on the breed. There are some great resources for you to start with:

Here's our club http://shilohs.org/

Here's a good Yahoo list for discussion http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/shilohs/

Hope that helps you, and points you towards some resources to assist your education on the breed.

Regards
Dave Herz
ISSDC Secretary
http://www.issdc.com
 

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Keechak, there is no Great Pyrenese in the breed. And I'm not sure about your 150 lbs. My male in one of the larger Shilohs at just over 31" and he is kept at approximately 125-128 lbs. I suppose you could get them up that high if you wanted a really fat dog.
I got my weight range from "The New Encyclopedia of the Dog" by Bruce Fogle. The pyrenese was mistaken as I see that is the King Shepherd not the Shiloh.

The book also says

Breed History

An American breeder, Tina Barber, unhappy with the degree of nervousness that she saw in the German Shepherd Dog, began breeding for size, sound hips, and steady temperament. This resulted in the Shiloh Shepherd. which received formal recognition in 1990.
I suggest your group should contact DVM Fogle, before he puts out another book.
 

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I suggest your group should contact DVM Fogle, before he puts out another book.
Can't say I've read every publication or website that could include information regarding our breed. But thank you for his info so we can help his encyclopedia attain a bit more accuracy.

Since he's here in Ontario, we might have some luck reaching him and perhaps he'll be doing a 2nd Edition or "The Newer New Encyclopedia of the Dog"

But appreciate his name. We're looking for a speak for the 2010 National to be held in Ontario next August and he might be someone to add to the list of possible guests.
 

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I know even less about the Shiloh than I do about GSDs, so I will only comment about the "mutt" thing. You will find mutts if you could go back far enough in any dog's pedigree. The closed registry breeding concept is a decidedly mixed bag of benefits as far as the dogs are concerned. Back when people bred dogs primarily for the work they did, breeders were a good deal more casual about what they put into their lines. They were also a good deal more ruthless about culling undesirables.

And who's to say that all the dog breeds we'll ever need were fully developed by the 19th century?
 

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Comments such as are simply uneducated, naive, and slanderous.
Well, you may call us biased, but you’re quite biased, too.

You can call us uneducated, but you should realize that your examples have failed to support your main point. I am no German shepherd expert, but I can comment on your post with the knowledge and common sense I have -

Actually the Shilohs for the vast majority have excellent, calm, confident temperaments which make them more suitable for family environments than some of their GSD forefathers. I would venture to guess that per capita there are more Shilohs with CGC/CGN with Gunshot than GSDs (per capita).

The breed has excelled in Therapy Dog work courtesy their size (which makes for ideal contact) and personality.

Why is the GSD the most commonly found dog in Humane Society Shelters?
These seems to be the main point in a lot of arguments for the breeding of “Shilohs” and “Labradoodles” and such. Well, that’s hardly fair, now is it? The German shepherd’s popularity is not due to their faults, but vice versa. Because the German shepherd has drawn in so many admirers, people seek to breed them for profit or buy them without knowledge of the breed. Tell me, how many people do you think truly does the required research and thinking when it comes to getting a dog? Most do it based off of curb appeal. How many people do you think are being truly responsible and ethical and reputable when they breed dogs, especially a breed as popular as the German shepherd? Think about those odds, and then tell me the possibility of someone purchasing a pup from a reputable breeder and having the ability to raise German shepherd successfully.

It’s very, very common for someone to think “Why, I’ve got a nice looking bitch here with papers, and that German shepherd down the street is nice looking too. Let’s see, average of 6 puppies a litter, $700 each, with everyone wanting a watchdog or a pretty pet or a cute puppy these days, and with the GSD so popular, I’ll make a pretty penny, won’t I?” or for a potential owner to think, “Pedigreed pups! And what cute puppies they are. The mom is so pretty, and dear husband has always wanted a tough dog by my side. Perfect!”

Over breeding and the popularity of the breed is why you see so many German shepherds unsound in temperament and so many unhealthy GSDs. Irresponsible ownership and lack of knowledge to handle this breed is what ends them up in shelters. You cannot blame the breed for the wrongs people have committed.

Now, even after acknowledging this, I can honestly tell you I have never met a flighty or aggressive German shepherd. I do understand that this is more due to my luck and inexperience, but I have met 2 “Shilohs”. One of which was sweet as can be, while the other seemed to quiver under my touch, refuse to even look at me, and avoided me and everyone else who came by.

I would venture to guess that per capita there are more Shilohs with CGC/CGN with Gunshot than GSDs (per capita).

The breed has excelled in Therapy Dog work courtesy their size (which makes for ideal contact) and personality.
I want to address this bit more specifically.

Suppose once my Trent grows up, I breed him to my neighbor’s dog, a sweet, beautiful Border collie x Lab x Pit bull x Whatnot mix, who actually does have a CGC and is therapy trained and works in hospitals and nursing homes. And they have a litter of, say 4 puppies which I dub “Equinox shepherds”. Suppose, then, that all 4 dogs receive a CGC, and, say, 3 become therapy dogs.

Then, I could boast to the world “My Equinox shepherds are sound in temperament. 100% of them have their Canine Good Citizenship, and 75% of them excel as therapy dogs. Per capita, they are better behaved compared to German shepherds, ‘Shilohs’, Labrador retrievers, Golden retrievers, etc…”, though only four such “Equinox shepherds” exist.


The fact is that the GSD, if true to the definition of Von Stephanitz's vision, is not meant to be a great family dog in the 21st century. That's not saying there aren't great GSD family pets.

Shilohs for the vast majority have excellent, calm, confident temperaments which make them more suitable for family environments than some of their GSD forefathers.
The Belgian Malinois is what I would call the ideal working dog and not the greatest of family dogs in the 21st century. Yet, I just met one the other day that lived fantastically as only a companion dog – no Schutzhund, no agility, etc. Instead, her owners were well experienced and knew the breed very well and could meet her needs and energy level. She was sweet and friendly and very well behaved.

Also, take my Trent for an example. He is from West German working lines. His dam has a SchH1 and KKL1 (therefore an AD) and is highly food driven. His sire has an IPO3 and VPG3. His grandsire has a SchH3 IPO3 and WH. Throughout his pedigree, there are Schutzhund, IPO, and VPG titles. His sire is energetic and highly driven. That does not mean that Trent is highly driven and unsuitable as a family pet. When we placed our deposit on him, we requested a companion only, low drive dog. And that’s what we got – a confidant, healthy, lively pup that we are capable of handling (most the time, he’s a pup, after all! ;) ).

Just because the litter is from working lines does not mean every pup will be a high drive dog that cannot be an ideal family pet. The elderly couple down the block have a German shepherd from a reputable breeder – he’s healthy, and has an excellent, calm, and confident temperament. Many German shepherds that compete also have that “off switch”. They can work on the field, but once they get home, they enjoy laying down on the couch and snoozing or allowing kids to climb all over them.


I'm not sure who has professed to be better than a GSD. Frankly, I could care less about GSDs as it's not the breed I'm involved with.
Unfortunately, I have quite often seen others advertise their “Shiloh” or “King” shepherds as the “bigger, better German shepherd”. Also, I am often told that the founder of your “breed” had the image of her childhood German shepherd in mind and sought out to improve the breed by adding other breeds into the mix to create the “Shiloh”.

I'm The biggest problem in the dog world is too many people spend too much time worrying about what other breeds/breeders/owners are doing versus what's at the end of their own leash, or in their own pack/breeding program.
I don’t understand how someone could feel that way. If it weren’t for dog owners and breeders, as you imply, sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong, then puppy mills/pet stores could become the #1 stop for a new dog and “Puggles” and “Labradoodles” would be the latest fad. Responsible owners and breeders need to inform others in order to stop unethical, irresponsible, and unreasonable practices.

I'm And one of the focuses on the breed is definitely health, and is something we as breeders strive to constantly better. Hips, heart, elbows, eyes, thyroid, TLI, are all items we screen for prior to breeding. Heath reports are available on breeder's websites etc.
This could be said for ANY responsible breeder of ANY breed. I know people who breed “Labradoodles” that test all that has been stated above plus more, and titled their dogs to agility as well.



I’ll more than likely get a lot of negative comments for this post, but I do want to state my opinion and my reasoning.

“Shilohs” and “Kings” are beautiful dogs, but the same goes for the long black coated mutt down the street and my friend’s Border collie x Lab x Pit Bull mix and many of the dogs you see at the local animal shelter.
 

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Sorry didn't mean to hit such a nerve with you Equinox. Because I support the Shiloh does not mean that I dislike the "GSD". It's simply not the breed for me.

Just so I'm clear on your rationale here. You stated in an earlier post:
I think Xeph means that many "Shilohs" tend to go be overly and unreasonably reactive to loud noise, sudden motion, etc... lacking the confidance that is so admirable in the ideal German shepherd.
You since have stated:
I have met 2 “Shilohs”. One of which was sweet as can be, while the other seemed to quiver under my touch, refuse to even look at me, and avoided me and everyone else who came by
So, you are now basing comments regarding the breed's temperament based on the experience of ONE Shiloh? LOL. I'm sorry, but that is exactly where I draw my comment of uneducated and naive from. For to draw such a conclusion on a breed based on such limited exposure is simply inappropriate no? Surely you have to agree with that?

Furthermore, you also are now placing temperament solely on genetics vs environment, socialization, and training. Which again, emphasizes my initial response regarding your opinion on the breed.

It's simply no different than me stating that "GSDs" are savage animals based on the severely messed up "GSD" at the local shelter that had to be put down.

I'm not sure where exactly you're going with your "it's hard to find a reputable GSD breeder" points. Frankly, not my concern. And regardless of how you want to justify the reason why their are so many "GSDs" in shelters, the bottom line remains there are many "GSDs" in shelters. Which is a testament to either the breed or the people buying the breed. Either way, comes back to the breeders and their responsibility to police their breed and practices.

Now, even after acknowledging this, I can honestly tell you I have never met a flighty or aggressive German shepherd
Not sure how to respond to that. Perhaps get out and see some more shelters. I've seen some magnificent ones, and some down right menacing ones.

Then, I could boast to the world “My Equinox shepherds are sound in temperament. 100% of them have their Canine Good Citizenship, and 75% of them excel as therapy dogs. Per capita, they are better behaved compared to German shepherds, ‘Shilohs’, Labrador retrievers, Golden retrievers, etc…”, though only four such “Equinox shepherds” exist.
Ok. If you want. There are a couple more than four Shilohs lol. But however you want to spin it, feel free.

Point being "that the breed is very active, earning titles and awards for a variety of tasks. http://www.njvma.org/hall/videos/2008/2008%20Therapy.mov

So a great deal of work is going into the breed by breeders and owners to have their dogs tested. Have them certified in certain areas. And to increase our presence in the community.

They can work on the field, but once they get home, they enjoy laying down on the couch and snoozing or allowing kids to climb all over them.
Never stated otherwise. I simply prefer a dog that doesn't have to rely on the "off switch" (as you put it).

Responsible owners and breeders need to inform others in order to stop unethical, irresponsible, and unreasonable practices.
To be a responsible owner or breeder you need to start inwards before you can work you way outwards. The dog world if full of politics, and those who seem to want to spend the most time slinging mud at others have spent the least amount of time cleaning up their own back yard.

Absolutely help stop unethical practices. But start with yourself/your own program/your own dog before venturing out and trying to tell others what they are or aren't doing.


This could be said for ANY responsible breeder of ANY breed. I know people who breed “Labradoodles” that test all that has been stated above plus more, and titled their dogs to agility as well
Awesome. I hope they do. All comes down to buyer education. I didn't realize Labradoodles have a breed standard, a National Club, or participate in conformation events?

I really have no opinion on what people chose to breed so long as it's done ethically and with the health and well being on the breed as the primary focus. Being it Labradoodles, "GSDs", Shipoos, Labs, whatever.

In the end, if there is no place for a breed in society then it will simply disappear. If breeders don't have a demand for their pups, then it creates a lower number of breeders, which results in a smaller gene pool, and eventually the breed collapses. However, if a breed has merit it will flourish and the population base will expand. Simple. And to date our breed is flourishing - hopefully it will continue.

So, if the Shiloh is not your cup of tea, that's entire okay and your right to feel that way. For others, it's exactly what they are looking for. I simply do not care for comments on breed temperament based on such limited exposure and without any consideration for environment, or at least a decent enough sized sampling to draw such statements from. You shoudl have versed your statement "I once met a Shiloh that was shy/skiddish/whatever" and not made such broad strokes against the breed.

Anyhow, thanks for allowing me to share my two cents on the breed. Hopefully you have an opportunity to read up on the past discussions here regarding the Shiloh. Or visit our club link to learn so more about the breed.
http://www.issdc.com

BTW, no need to put the breed name in quotes. Shiloh is just fine :)

Regards,
Dave Herz
ISSDC Club Secretary
 

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Boldcanine: All of the Shiloh's I've met have been like you described..we have a shiloh club here and I've met with all their dogs which is like 50 dogs and I never noticed any of them being very shy or reactive towards noises..but maybe those 50 were oddballs? I don't know, they all seemed very friendly, and focused on any task that they were given..even at the dog park when their owner was throwing a ball, they were focused only on that ball, even when dogs tried to play with them, they stayed focused on that ball haha.
 

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They are two very different breeds, the GSD and the Shiloh. One was bred for working the other was bred as a companion.

There are many freaky spooky fidgety GSDs from poor breeding, and there are many confident even tempered ones from good breeding. If The creator of the Shiloh Really wanted to improve on the GSD she would have gone to some great breeders and got some temperamentally and physically sound dogs.

The fact is she probably had a very bad GSD when she was younger and really didn't like the breed so she wanted to create something that looked similar but was the total opposite of what she had growing up.

People who own structurally and mental sound GSD's don't see a need to "improve" them by adding in other breeds. They know they can keep what they love simply by breeding it with other GSD's with the same traits.

So I'm guessing, this Tina Barber lady, had a badly bred GSD and it ruined her love of the breed, whenever she thought of GSD's she thought of health and temperament problems, little did she know she could have easily avoided health and temperament problems by going to a good breeder.

But because she also wanted a calmer less drivey dog I guess a GSD just wasn't her thing anyway no matter how well bred it was.
 

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I would expect the GSD people to be cranky about Shilohs, but IMO they should just be considered an entire different breed. They do have a registry, with shows and everything, so I do feel it's possible to have a responsible breeder of Shilohs.

If I ever get a purebred, Shilohs are on my short list. I love GSDs, but I could never handle their intensity.
 
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