What now?

Wow, MissMutt... : ( I'm so sorry to hear this! : ( That's awful... Donatello's making bounding leaps with his new trick, and poor Marge is backsliding at an incredibly fast speed...

I wish I was smarter, more knowledgeable, and had more experience to help you; But you and I have talked on and off and I'm sure you know that I'm in the same boat you're in, (at times)...

I'm not the type of person to run off at the deep-end, I don't believe that medication is the "beat-all-end-all", but quite possibly trying herbal/natural anti-stress "medication" might help... If they're herbal/natural, kind of like the tablets I've given Donatello at times, you don't have to worry about "alcohol" or other ingredients being harmful to her.

Reading about all your accomplishments, I wouldn't really say that you'd need a behaviorist right now... My honest opinion... The fourth of July is a terrible day and a terrible holiday for our beloved fur-kids that are petrified by nature... I would like to hope that maybe she's just still high-strung over the fireworks, but at that same time I'm not an expert...

You've done so well with her on your own, I would keep on trying... Try to bring her out this funk she's trying to bury herself in... See what happens... If she continues on the path she's on now, or if she backslides again in the near future, then I would consider outside help.

I say that because I've always said Donatello and Marge are so much alike... It's been weeks since Donatello's had an "episode" or an "outburst"... There for several months, he'd see a trigger, go off, and then be standoffish for the rest of the day... Before that he'd be standoffish for several days before coming out of it... My point is, is that Donatello still has some "episodes" and every now and again I feel like we're "backsliding", but once I pull him out of it, if he has another one it either doesn't last as long, or it doesn't take him long to pull out of...

Marge's fears and frights go down a lot deeper than Donatello's obviously... But I'm just trying to give you hope and support. : ) Keep us updated!

There is a lot of research nowadays that shows that you cannot "reinforce" fear itself, though sometimes you can accidentally reinforce the behaviour that is the result of the fear..since the reaction is based in rear brain activity (fight or flight and is pretty much reflex rather than conscious fear) the only way to mitigate this level of discomfort is through classical conditioning..classical conditioning is almost always started with food..it is a primary reinforcer and the idea is that (if the dog is not so over threshold to not take food) the food creates a different flood of chemicals in the brain (serotonin, dopamine, endorphins) that eventually negate the stress hormones and help to create a better feeling (physically and psychologically) about the stressor/trigger.

An example of this is people who eat high carb foods/drink alcohol when they are stressed or upset. Our brains are not that much different from the mammals in the world, save for a bigger frontal cortex..the chemicals work the same way.

You start out with CC, get to the point where the dog is operating in a more "front brain" basis..and then switch to Operant conditioning (training an alternate behaviour or alternate response to the trigger).

There is a really good blog entry on Patricia McConnell's site regarding reinforcing fear. I'll see if I can find it.

http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/category/thunder-phobia-in-dogs/

The post is mostly about thunder phobia..but talks a lot about the difference in reinforcing fear v reinforcing behaviours.

I tried the Protocol for Relaxation but gave up on the second or third day. Something about the way I was doing it just didn't seem right.. I didn't know whether she should be leashed or not, whether it was better for her to get up in between sits or not.

I haven't read anything from Ali Brown, though I do know of the book.

What work have I been doing? Right now I've been focusing on attention and control. Things like "watch me" and "leave it" and praise/treats for looking at other dogs calmly. These both things have worked appreciably, as nowadays at Agility she doesn't get nearly as hyped up seeing other dogs run the course as she used to.

In regards to socializing with other people, I feel like I've hit a brick wall. When we were preparing for the CGC, we did this practically every weekend. Now I feel like there's never the right situation around. She does socialize after Agility class with people and other dogs, and I mostly leave it up to her whether she wants to interact or not. She almost always interacts with people in some way, either by sniffing them, allowing some petting, etc, and of course always accepting treats. In some ways, I feel she's actually been better with people.. less argumentative when they ask her for something simple (used to grumble in the past when asked to sit or shake paw), more willing to go up to them, looser body language, etc

Dogs, as I said, she is very indifferent to. I can't really read her because I almost feel like there's nothing to be watching for. I don't really catch any play signals, or calming signals, or anything. She just kind of sniffs, wags her tail, maybe hangs around a little bit and that's it. I see flickers of her wanting to play, like the play bows she gave at our last Rally class last weekend, but it never really culminates into anything.

I used nothing for the Fourth.. I called the vet's office, expressed my concerns about Acepromazine, and you know what the receptionist told me? "Oh, you can read bad things about any drug online.. it's safe, it helps to calm them down, it's not only a sedative." She said "Valium and Xanax are really strong and take a few days to work, so we don't like to give them." So no, I used nothing for the Fourth.

Thanx for the info, Cracker. Very interesting.. I do think this has a lot to do with the 4th of July, but I'm just worried that if she keeps rehearsing these fearful reactions that it's going to take longer and longer for them to go away.

I partly wonder if you're going about it the wrong way. If you give a dog treats when they're fearful, then in my mind you're just encouraging the fear. I don't speak from experience though as the only fearful dog I owned was terrified of storm drains and it was easy enough to just avoid them.

Click to expand...

I know that the treats are not harming her. IMO and the opinions of a lot of the "fearful dog people" out there, it is impossible to operantly reward an emotional state. Instead, you're changing the emotional state through classical conditioning.
http://fearfuldogs.com/fearstudy.html

What do you guys think of melatonin? I've heard some about it and am wondering if this is something I can maybe give her and see if it produces any results. Is it something I should talk with the vet about first?

That receptionist was wrong..ace is a sedative NOT an anti anxiety (which valium and xanax are)...sedating means the outward physical reactions are muted, not the actual anxiety feelings..scary.

I have recently read in Dr. Nicholas Dodman's book, The Well Adjusted Dog, that he has had SOME success with melatonin but that it's hit and miss... an excerpt:

"The sleep hormone melatonin is another treatment popular with the natural movement for the treatment of sleep disturbances and anxiety. Melatonin can be helpful in some situations, but in my experience it is only minimally effective. On the positive side, melatonin is incredibly safe. Laboratory rodents could not be given enough of it for scientists to calculate a lethal dose. Melatonin, which is secreted by the pituitary gland, influences the sleep-wake cycle and reproductive cycles of some domestic species. It's levels fluctuate during the day and over the course of the year. Melatonin's precursor, serotonin, whose concentration is highest on waking, is converted to melatonin over the course of the day. Higher levels of melatonin at the end of the day help trigger sleep. Low levels of serotonin at the end of the day increase the likelihood of irritability and aggression at this time, especially in already aggressive dogs....

I must admit, I have had some seemingly positive experiences myself when prescribing melatonin. One dog-a golden retriever with severe fear of fireworks-coped remarkably well one fourth of july when, at our suggestion, his owner gave him a robust dose of melatonin. Another dog with a fear of red-winged blackbirds overcame this fear when treated with melatonin. A great dane with a nasty ALD lesion (caused by licking his wrist raw during his owner's absence) was completely cured when given melatonin before his owner's left home each day. I presume he slept instead of worrying, but you could argue he may have been awake, yet not anxious. Finally, a bull terrier exhibiting nighttime "rage" attacks-presumably caused by behavioural seizures- was controlled with melatonin. Despite these few apparent successes, I must admit that the majority of cases I have treated with melatonin have not fared so impressively. The usual effect, in my experience, is not effect- but it never hurts to try. By the way, it is better to use chemically pure (synthetic) melatonin than the "natural" product that is extracted from bovine brain tissue."

So there you are. Clear as mud. LOL. No proof it works but sometimes it seems to. The fun of neurochemistry..lol. Safe is the key word I think here...and I think if Marge's reactivity seems worse in the evening/late day it may be worth a try.

I agree that a full blood panel, including lyme testing and full thyroid (not just a t4) is your next logical step. To have such a slide, where the fear is starting to generalize, like the car door, indicates something amiss.

You CAN demand it from your vet. Whether he thinks it is necessary or not. Even our very progressive vet at my local AH had to "discuss" it with me when I recommended one of my clients to have the thyroid testing done. Her dog had been improving with BM and then suddenly started to regress. Imagine his surprise when three of the indicators for hypothyroidism were below normal, and the rest were "Low normal"...once Cody was on synthroid his fear went away and we were back to the same levels as before the slide began.

Either way, it sounds like a sound desensitization protocol should be worked up. Definitely get the testing done first (to ensure BM will help..if it's medical no improvement will occur until the physical issue is taken care of) and then go from there.

Poor Marge..being scared and stressed all the time is not good for her, nor for you!