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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
will try again

1. Does the usage of a choke collar often result in the deliverly of a uncomfortable or aversive constriction around a dogs neck to include the trachea if not kept up higher on the neck. YES/NO


2. Is the squirting of liquids into a dog’s eyes or face to condition undesired behavior considered a aversive punisher? YES/NO


3. Does the usage of a Gentle Leader type head halter often result in using force training/management and aversive of any kind? YES/NO

4. Does the use of a Martingale type collar most likely result in the use of aversive force training/management? YES/NO

5. Can restraint be considered or used as a form of force management/training? YES/NO

6. Can one use verbal’s in a manner as to intimidate or correct a dog’s behavior? YES/NO

7. Can a correction to behavior result from a person administering one that is neither physically or physiologically aversive? YES/NO

8. Can a person always earn a dogs respect by the use of positive reinforcement only in any given situation? YES/NO

9. Can a person always earn a humans respect by the use of positive reinforcement only in any given situation? YES/NO

10. Do dogs communicate to each other primarily by the use of incentive based methods? YES/NO


any questions pertaining to definitions of word usage should be resourced in a dictionary...(edited) or in ones own definition.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
The study also allows for one to interpret any word usage regardless of predefined definitions that may or may not be sourced elsewhere.

cheers
 

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but therein lies an issue...

taking the term "respect" as an example again...

to me..in relation to dogs and dog training, the term "respect" has zero meaning. its irrelevant because it is undefinable to me. My dog may or may not "respect" me in the tradional sense but i have no concrete way of determining said "respect" and therefore the term is meaningless.

So I can't answer that question with any truth at all.
 

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but therein lies an issue...

taking the term "respect" as an example again...

to me..in relation to dogs and dog training, the term "respect" has zero meaning. its irrelevant because it is undefinable to me. My dog may or may not "respect" me in the tradional sense but i have no concrete way of determining said "respect" and therefore the term is meaningless.

So I can't answer that question with any truth at all.
I've read "respect" as:

If a dog does what you ask him to do even if he'd rather do something else that he'd love to do, then that's a dog showing you respect.

Not the perfect definition, but it's something I can measure by Wally's reaction, and that's good enough for me. :)
 

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I've read "respect" as:

If a dog does what you ask him to do even if he'd rather do something else that he'd love to do, then that's a dog showing you respect.

Not the perfect definition, but it's something I can measure by Wally's reaction, and that's good enough for me. :)
your definition doesn't really fit with what I do.

I use reinforcements to make the dog love what I want them to do..

so maybe "respect" in my case is defined as "responsive to conniving manipulative trainer"? :p;)
 

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Re: will try again

2. Is the squirting of liquids into a dog’s eyes or face to condition undesired behavior considered a aversive punisher? YES/NO

Yes

5. Can restraint be considered or used as a form of force management/training? YES/NO

Yes

6. Can one use verbal’s in a manner as to intimidate or correct a dog’s behavior? YES/NO

Yes

7. Can a correction to behavior result from a person administering one that is neither physically or physiologically aversive? YES/NO

Yes

8. Can a person always earn a dogs respect by the use of positive reinforcement only in any given situation? YES/NO

No

9. Can a person always earn a humans respect by the use of positive reinforcement only in any given situation? YES/NO

No

10. Do dogs communicate to each other primarily by the use of incentive based methods? YES/NO

Yes



I don't have any detailed knowledge/experience/observation of #1, #3, #4 so I can't answer.

As far as #8 and #9 - "Always" and "Never" are two words I don't agree with, especially in regards to living creatures. Very effective, I say yes. 100% OMG-never-ever-ever-ever-no-matter-what-in-any-situation-perfect? No.

#10 - well I only can reference Wally's interactions with dogs - and they are R+/P- methods. Maybe calming signals are could be considered corrections, but that seems maybe a stretch.

your definition doesn't really fit with what I do.

I use reinforcements to make the dog love what I want them to do..

so maybe "respect" in my case is defined as "responsive to conniving manipulative trainer"? :p;)
But they do what you want them to do instead of something else they'd otherwise do (if they could make their own choice), right?

Your "conniving and manipulation" is just a means to the end, imo. I mean, I'm the same way - I can call Wally off from chasing a squirrel because he loves coming back to me - but he still had to stop doing what he was enjoying to do so.
 

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Re: will try again

But they do what you want them to do instead of something else they'd otherwise do (if they could make their own choice), right?

Your "conniving and manipulation" is just a means to the end, imo. I mean, I'm the same way - I can call Wally off from chasing a squirrel because he loves coming back to me - but he still had to stop doing what he was enjoying to do so.
with my own dog somewhat...

with the rescues I work with...

no. they aren't doing things they "want" or "love" to do. they are usually reacting to stressful stimulus. as an example, A fear aggressive dog doesn't "want" to bite you per se....to do a bit of anthropomorphizing...its as if they feel they have no choice, its an instinctual reaction to a percieved threat.
 

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Re: will try again

with my own dog somewhat...

with the rescues I work with...

no. they aren't doing things they "want" or "love" to do. they are usually reacting to stressful stimulus. as an example, A fear aggressive dog doesn't "want" to bite you per se....to do a bit of anthropomorphizing...its as if they feel they have no choice, its an instinctual reaction to a percieved threat.
That's true - which brings up another point about all the questions -

Are we assuming a "normal and stable" dog, or are we including all dogs be they fear aggressive or overly shy/fearful, or the like?

I might need to delete my answers if dogs that are very shy/somewhat fearful aren't meant to be included in the study.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
I am not sure as to what the definition of normal would be by some,many, or most?

The study is designed to study a multitude of responses to include none at all.

thanks for participating to those who will.

cheers
 

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I am not sure as to what the definition of normal would be by some,many, or most?
Me either - but you're the one conducting the study, so it's your criteria (assuming you have any in this regard) that matters.

You answered my question, thanks - I'll leave my answers then.
 

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This is not a study, its a promotion of an agenda. The questions are worded in such a way as to elicit a certain response. The answer the questioner desires is evident in the question.
 

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This is not a study, its a promotion of an agenda. The questions are worded in such a way as to elicit a certain response. The answer the questioner desires is evident in the question.
I was kind of thinking this...

A study not intended as Trainer implies there should be leeway in what kind of answers one can give.

Yes and no are too absolute when discussing dogs and dog training IMHO because dogs are individuals just as situations vary.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The question needs to be evaluted by the person answering the question as to any correctness or lack thereof. Any judgement of the data or lack thereof is always a issue for interpretation..
 

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Re: will try again

Let me show you what Im talking about



1. Does the usage of a choke collar often result in the deliverly of a uncomfortable or aversive constriction around a dogs neck to include the trachea if not kept up higher on the neck.

In my opinion placement on the neckis generally irrelevant. The purpose of a choke collar is to constrict. Therefore whether high or low on the neck is irrelevant.


2. Is the squirting of liquids into a dog’s eyes or face to condition undesired behavior considered a aversive punisher?

Not just yes....squirting liquids on the eyes is in my opinion abuse.


3. Does the usage of a Gentle Leader type head halter often result in using force training/management and aversive of any kind?

Situationally.

4. Does the use of a Martingale type collar most likely result in the use of aversive force training/management?

Are we using the Martingale as it was intended to be used or are we using it as a choke collar?

5. Can restraint be considered or used as a form of force management/training?

What is meant by restraint? Are we talking physical restraint or are we talking simply not putting the dog in a situation that elicits the undesirable behavior? Both could be defined as restraint.

6. Can one use verbal’s in a manner as to intimidate or correct a dog’s behavior?

Yes.

7. Can a correction to behavior result from a person administering one that is neither physically or physiologically aversive?

Yes.

8. Can a person always earn a dogs respect by the use of positive reinforcement only in any given situation?

I already addressed my issues with this question.

9. Can a person always earn a humans respect by the use of positive reinforcement only in any given situation?

In my personal experience, yes.

10. Do dogs communicate to each other primarily by the use of incentive based methods?

yes
 

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1. Does the usage of a choke collar often result in the deliverly of a uncomfortable or aversive constriction around a dogs neck to include the trachea if not kept up higher on the neck.
Yes


In my opinion placement on the neckis generally irrelevant. The purpose of a choke collar is to constrict. Therefore whether high or low on the neck is irrelevant.
Placement is not irrelevant and to make it sound so, is inaccurate. When placed incorrectly, there is also the risk of tracheal damage. The purpose of the training collar is not to constrict, it is to correct. As with anything, when used correctly, a training collar is very effective. The higher up on the neck it is placed, the better, in order to obtain maximum correction with minimum force. It goes without saying that when using a training collar, as with any adversive, timing is also an essential element.

Look at how dogs are presented in the show ring. The collar is high up on the neck, directly behind the ears. Not only does this show off the dog's structure, it is maximizing the handler's control with minimum effort.
 

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Placement is not irrelevant and to make it sound so, is inaccurate. When placed incorrectly, there is also the risk of tracheal damage. The purpose of the training collar is not to constrict, it is to correct. As with anything, when used correctly, a training collar is very effective. The higher up on the neck it is placed, the better, in order to obtain maximum correction with minimum force. It goes without saying that when using a training collar, as with any adversive, timing is also an essential element.

Look at how dogs are presented in the show ring. The collar is high up on the neck, directly behind the ears. Not only does this show off the dog's structure, it is maximizing the handler's control with minimum effort.
I hear this side of the story and i have heard an opposing side that says the collar should be low.

but that wasn't the point of what I posted.

it is irrelevant to me whether the collar is high or low....it still constricts and causes discomfort and that is the intention of the collar.
 

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1. Does the usage of a choke collar often result in the deliverly of a uncomfortable or aversive constriction around a dogs neck to include the trachea if not kept up higher on the neck. No answer. I don't use one and have not in years. Never worried too much about placement onthe neck when I did use one.. 15 years ago.


2. Is the squirting of liquids into a dog’s eyes or face to condition undesired behavior considered a aversive punisher? Yes but man oh man I don't recommend abusing any of your animals in this manner.

3. Does the usage of a Gentle Leader type head halter often result in using force training/management and aversive of any kind? Pass on answer because of the word "often"

4. Does the use of a Martingale type collar most likely result in the use of aversive force training/management? No answer due to Most Likely statement in question

5. Can restraint be considered or used as a form of force management/training? Well, 1/2 is yes and 1/2 is no because there are two questions here in one. Management and training are two different things

6. Can one use verbal’s in a manner as to intimidate or correct a dog’s behavior? Yes but there are two questions here too.. intimidating and correcting are two different results

7. Can a correction to behavior result from a person administering one that is neither physically or physiologically aversive? Yes

8. Can a person always earn a dogs respect by the use of positive reinforcement only in any given situation? No answer. I don't know what dog respect is

9. Can a person always earn a humans respect by the use of positive reinforcement only in any given situation? No but this is not to say that positive punishment gets it either... COLOR]

10. Do dogs communicate to each other primarily by the use of incentive based methods? No idea.. I will ask my dog.. Oh nutz.. she is fast asleep.. Wait.. I will ask the cat.. Oh I don't like that look he just gave me... I can see some positive punishment directed at me in the near future..
 

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Re: will try again

1. Does the usage of a choke collar often result in the deliverly of a uncomfortable or aversive constriction around a dogs neck to include the trachea if not kept up higher on the neck. YES/NO
A choke collar is meant to be aversive, and I don't know any part of the dog's neck that is not susceptible to aversion so placement doesn't matter. Is it clipped to a leash? If so, who's holding the leash?

2. Is the squirting of liquids into a dog’s eyes or face to condition undesired behavior considered a aversive punisher? YES/NO
What dog are we talking about? Who's squirting the dog? What happens with the frequency of the undesirable behavior in the future?

3. Does the usage of a Gentle Leader type head halter often result in using force training/management and aversive of any kind? YES/NO
What is force training? What is force management? Head halters are meant to be aversive during the target behavior.

4. Does the use of a Martingale type collar most likely result in the use of aversive force training/management? YES/NO
Is it clipped to a leash? If so, who's holding the leash?

5. Can restraint be considered or used as a form of force management/training? YES/NO
I don't know what force management/training is.

6. Can one use verbal’s in a manner as to intimidate or correct a dog’s behavior? YES/NO
Yes.

7. Can a correction to behavior result from a person administering one that is neither physically or physiologically aversive? YES/NO
What definition of "correction" are we using?

8. Can a person always earn a dogs respect by the use of positive reinforcement only in any given situation? YES/NO
What does respect look like?

9. Can a person always earn a humans respect by the use of positive reinforcement only in any given situation? YES/NO
What does respect look like? What human(s) are we talking about?

10. Do dogs communicate to each other primarily by the use of incentive based methods? YES/NO
What are incentive based methods to dogs?

any questions pertaining to definitions of word usage should be resourced in a dictionary...(edited) or in ones own definition.
If we can make up whatever definitions we want, how does this constitute a study?
 
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