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Discussion Starter #1
So, this picture popped up on pintrest today, titled as a "bernedoodle", which I'm assuming is a Bernese Mountain Dog/Poodle cross. Why do people keep breeding poodles with things and tacking "doodle" on as a name? I mean, sure, they're cute as heck when they're puppies but is there any other reason? Are people actually trying to create new breeds (aside from the labradoodle which was created for a specific purpose, even if its not really a breed yet).

Where does it end!?
 

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Just looked at that group. This picture is by far my favorite....


The Bernedoodle thing is a little weird. Maybe they were creating smarter Bernese? The one we had was a sweet lug, but he was rather dim... Or more likely the name was cute and Bernese are popular now, so why not doodle it.
 

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because people will pay big money for a 'doodle.

I have met a ton of them, they are pretty popular, as with all doodles around here. these dogs have a groomers nightmare of a coat. not to mention cost a ton to groom and take for ever to groom lol.
 

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"Job Security" for the groomers? Just Kidding!!!! The ones I have are a nightmare to groom .... but I do enjoy it and do it myself. If it were my profession as a groomer I would be frustrated at times I imagine.

I have no idea what that is all about. I am on my third "Doodle" right now. All I can say is that with the Schnauzer/Poodles so far .... they have the smarts of both breeds and have a prey drive that I as an individual like. To me ... they are smart hunters plus. :) They don't have to be little fluffy lap dogs .... but I use them for mousers/ratters to keep the varmints out of my house. The fluffy lap side of this dog is just a plus ... for me.
 

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I don't have a problem with people breeding "doodles" or other mixes as long as they're being responsible about it -- they should be carefully choosing their breeds and specific breeding dogs to maximize the health and longevity of the resulting pups. Are "bernedoodles" likely to develop the cancer that is rampant in Bernese Mountain Dogs? If so, I don't see this as a good mix at all. If the cancer risk is lessened, then I have no more concerns with this mix than I do with goldendoodles or the like.

I Googled "bernedoodle health" and found this site, which recommends certain important health tests... they do mention cancer as a concern, but don't say whether or not the risk in the mix is comparable to the risk in pure BMDs.

(Another page asks, "Do you love the bernese breed but can't stand the shedding? Well this new mix will be perfect for you!" I hate that kind of dishonest marketing -- they can't possibly guarantee that all pups will be non-shedding.)
 

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I am not a fan of Doodles, but just because I don't like the bearded curly coat. Most I've met have had great personalities. I breeder of Cockers I know (25 years) that I thought would ALWAYS breed just Cockers has just started breeding Schnauzer/Poodles to my surprise.

I have not ever met a Schnauzer to understand the merits of this cross. The coats of the mix would still have to be wire (bearded/bearded and short dominant to long on the alleles that predict this) like the Schnauzers, so the reason for the cross would have to be down to temperament.

The Schnauzer breed is on my radar mostly because it possibly has an a'p' allele - one not found on the agouti locus in most other breeds. I'm gonna be watching her litter photos closely.:)

Are Poodles more biddable than Schnauzers? Less feisty?

With regard to Bernedoodles I met one at the dog park two weeks ago. He was a fine dog, well trained and well loved and the owners said the breeder did hips (I get nosy like that). He was two years old. He came from a breeder I have spoken to about 60 miles from me, and she is a caring person who has clean facilities. She has large runs and socializes her pups and does some testing . . . however she breeds too many dogs for my liking and places her adults as she runs her breeding program as a business. She is better than MANY of the commercially oriented breeders I've met (pure and mixed). The owners of the Bernedoodle said his coat WAS a pain to keep up with but they wanted less shedding. I like the Bernese better myself . . . again down to coat.

SOB
 

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Poodles are more biddable and less fiesty.

To be honest, I think most doodle lovers (not including Abbylynn or anyone specifically) actually like poodles. Poodles are fantastic dogs with many qualities to like, but they have that reputation. They're floofy nondogs fit only to be dressed up funny. So people think they don't like poodles. Doodles, on the other hand, are a hot commodity right now, so people get their poodle fix without the stigma attached to poodles.

It really pisses me off, actually. I feel like shouting "Hello! You like poodles, get over it!"
 

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As long as there are stupid people, there will be scam artists ready and waiting to take their money.

The only "responsible" way to breed a mixed litter is to not do it at all. Referring to such people as breeders is an insult to real breeders.
 

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I used to feel that way, but now I believe it's not so black and white. I know of a couple of show breeders from Maritime Canada who wanted to breed a mix of their two breeds for sports purposes. They lined up a bunch of buyers, and then they bred their titled, health-tested show dogs together to produce a litter. Is that irresponsible? They checked a lot of the boxes I look for... they showed the dogs, they knew the dogs were healthy and free of genetic disease, they bred for a purpose, and they had buyers lined up (I don't know for sure, but I would assume they made buyers sign the same type of return contract they'd sign for a purebred from either breeder).

I didn't object to the above. So then I had to think: What if someone is breeding mixes as pets, but they're running all proper health tests on the parents, lining up buyers in advance, providing a health guarantee and requiring the puppies back if the new owner can no longer keep them, etc... all of the things I look for in a breeder of purebreds. I can't really condemn them.

I do believe that responsible mixed-breed breeders are rare... but I think they can exist.
 

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Designer dogs were originally from Puppy mills, they keep all purebreds and when there was an accidental litter it was a litter of halfbreeds, so they started putting strange names on them so they were easier to sell and could make some profit. There are also 'clubs' that were created so people could have a piece of paper to wave around, which is pretty pathetic IMO.

IMO pets shouldn't be bred until we can get the dog over population under control, there are so many good pets in shelters!

But besides that you cannot breed a high quality Labradoodle, Chiweenie, havapoo or any of those because like any other mutt they can be prone to any health defect, so genetic screening is pointless. If someone wants to buy a dog with no health guarantees and is not a purebred they can simply adopt!

The ONLY way to breed a quality mutt is to breed for working dogs, there are many AMAZING working dog breeders that breed mutts solely for the purpose of their job, this doesn't change the fact that you cannot do genetic screening but when they do their job better than any other purebred can it is worth it!
 

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IMO pets shouldn't be bred until we can get the dog over population under control, there are so many good pets in shelters!
Read this; it's very interesting. It explains how dog overpopulation is actually a myth.

But besides that you cannot breed a high quality Labradoodle, Chiweenie, havapoo or any of those because like any other mutt they can be prone to any health defect, so genetic screening is pointless.
Well... no. Mutts are not prone to any genetic defect that exists just because they're mutts. They can inherit issues that either of the parent breeds carries, so if you screen the parent breeds and make sure they're not passing anything bad along, then mixes would have just as high of a chance of being healthy as purebred pups from either parent.

(They could actually be healthier if you're talking about a disease where both parents would have to carry the gene for the pups to develop it. If the gene only existed in one of the two breeds, the pups wouldn't develop that particular issue.)
 

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Designer dogs were originally from Puppy mills, they keep all purebreds and when there was an accidental litter it was a litter of halfbreeds, so they started putting strange names on them so they were easier to sell and could make some profit. . .
Nice fairytale story you have going there.

Cockapoos were an original designer breed that I've known for over 40 years. I've known many and I've known the occasional breeders. They were not puppymill breeders.

There ARE many substandard commercial breeders of designer dogs.

There ARE many substandard commercial breeders of purebred dogs. These dogs OFTEN have strange names so that they are easier to sell and their 'pedigree' attraction draws great prices and profits.

Claiming there is a difference in the manner these two groups are marketted and the aims of the majority who breed them is INANE.

The Bernedoodle breeder I was referring to is not a puppymill breeder anymore than the top affix breeders in Cavalier King Charles that I know of are. She breeds less dogs, with less risk. I still wouldn't support her because as a PERSONAL decision I choose to support breeders who have tiny programs and don't rehome their dogs. THAT is because I fostered a couple TOO MANY mill release mommas.

So your blanket generalizations here are a bunch of B.S.

IMO pets shouldn't be bred until we can get the dog over population under control, there are so many good pets in shelters!
There is no dog overpopulation problem.

We do have a SHELTER KILLING PROBLEM.

That is NOT down to overpopulation. There are many times more homes looking for a dog EVERY DAY than there are dogs in our shelters.

If I have 500 dogs and decide I want to kill them instead of offering them for adoption, or offering them to rescues to help out, or being even the tiniest bit inventive in advertising . . . that is not about overpopulation . . . and THAT is what plays out day in and day out in MANY of our shelters.

If I am a shelter director and killing and killing and killing because people continue to have oops litters, but don't care to try to educate my community about responsible pet ownership as 'well they are all idiots', then that KILLING that I am directing is MOSTLY on ME as MY JOB is to HELP animals . . . not just let it continue and name call and point my finger outwards.

http://yesbiscuit.wordpress.com/2012/11/11/memphis-pound-cites-local-rescuer-seizes-dogs-by-court-order/ - MAS killed all 6 dogs on October 12, 2012. They were never offered for adoption to my knowledge and no pleas were issued to the public or to rescue groups or fosters. Is this what the judge had in mind when the order to surrender dogs was issued to the rescuer? Does this represent an improvement in the quality of life for these dogs? Is this the best the city of Memphis can manage when called upon to help 6 pets in their $7.2 million facility? . . . How many more, Memphis?

Please stop distracting from the real problem by blaming a mythical 'overpopulation' that can NEVER be resolved - hence those that promote such nonsense can keep reeling in the donations.

I believe YOU are being destructive to the cause of helping dog by continuing to promote THIS MYTH. It stops people who really care from targetting the REAL PROBLEM and helping to SAVE DOGS.

. . . See, here's the thing. I believe I can make the case with data alone that "pet over-population" doesn't exist, let alone serve as a justification for anything, but that's irrelevant in this particular discussion. The reason? Because there's an intrinsic logical problem with the "shelter killing proves pet over-population" argument.

To demonstrate that flaw of reasoning, I'm going to walk you through an example.

Take a hypothetical town that has 10,000 pets entering its shelter system each year, where, except for the 100 who are reclaimed by their owners, they all die because the "shelter" does not do adoptions, resulting in a save rate of 1 percent and a kill rate of 99 percent.

Are those pets all dying because of "pet over-population," or because the shelter has no adoption program?

Say the shelter decides to try one day a month where it does adoptions, on Tuesdays from 11 AM - 2 PM. They manage in the first year to adopt out 100 pets. Their save rate is now 2 percent, with a 98 percent kill rate.

Did they kill 100 fewer pets because of a reduction in "pet over-population," or because they started doing some adoptions?

Now, imagine the shelter decides to try to improve its pathetic 1 percent return-to-owner rate, and manages to increase it to 500 pets being reclaimed by their owners each year. They also participate in a regional adoption event four times a year, and do 400 more adoptions than the year before. Now they're saving 10 percent of their pets, and killing 90 percent.

Did they save 900 more pets because of a reduction in "pet over-population," or because they improved their adoption effort and return-to-owner program?

A few years pass, and they get a little better. They do adoptions every weekday afternoon until 5 PM, and their return-to-owner rate is stable at 10 percent. Since they're not killing all the pets after the mandatory holding period anymore, they're starting to lose some to illness, but overall, they're now saving 35 percent of those 10,000 animals.

Reduction in "pet over-population"? Or improvement in shelter management practices?

One day, they hire a new shelter director, who is a committed animal lover as well as a veterinarian. She implements a small shelter medicine program, starts vaccinating on intake, and recruits a few friends to foster some of the orphaned kittens and puppies who come into the shelter. She gets their save rate to 65 percent in her first year.

Did she do that by reducing "pet over-population," or by implementing the bare-bones-basics of a shelter medicine program?

The next year, she decides to try to get more foster homes and volunteers, and also starts a fundraising campaign to build a new shelter where disease control won't be so difficult.

Within two years, they have a new shelter, and have also improved their return-to-owner and adoption numbers, raising their save rate to 88 percent.

The vet is now hired to run a failing shelter in another community, and to the horror of all the shiny new shelter volunteers and foster homes, the new director isn't committed to maintaining the changes she made.

The next year, with their volunteer and foster programs in tatters, their save rate drops to 70 percent.

Did "pet over-population" get worse, or did their sheltering practices get worse?

The following year, a group of former shelter volunteers mounts an effective public advocacy campaign, and gets the director replaced by an ex-Marine who has run a no-kill animal control agency in a similarly-sized town. He restores the volunteer and foster programs, then expands them, and hires a marketing whiz to run the shelter's adoption, outreach, media, and fundraising departments.

That year, they save 94 percent of the pets who come into their shelter, officially joining the ranks of the nation's no-kill communities.

Did they reduce "pet over-population," or did they become a no-kill community by implementing modern, proven, progressive sheltering practices?

Maybe you deny that any community can do what this hypothetical one did. Maybe you've investigated every one of the communities that has documentation that they save more than 90 percent of their homeless pets, and determined it's all lies.

That still wouldn't change the fact that on the basis of logic alone, your argument is a tautology, "a series of self-reinforcing statements that cannot be disproved because they depend on the assumption that they are already correct."

That's because it's plainly absurd to suggest that this hypothetical community's starting point couldn't be improved on by implementing better sheltering practices. No one, no matter how opposed to no-kill, could deny that. . . .​

source - http://www.doggedblog.com/doggedblog/2012/10/why-shelter-killing-has-nothing-to-do-with-pet-over-population.html

. . . The ONLY way to breed a quality mutt is to breed for working dogs, there are many AMAZING working dog breeders that breed mutts solely for the purpose of their job, this doesn't change the fact that you cannot do genetic screening but when they do their job better than any other purebred can it is worth it!
How does GENETIC SCREENING even come into play here? Give me a hint? What are you including in your phrase 'GENETIC SCREENING'. Honesty, I can't figure out what you mean because it makes such a very little difference with regard to the risk of ill health in the pups produced!

Combined with HONEST ancestral health knowledge and HEALTH SCREENING, the GENETIC SCREENING for the TINY number of conditions (we are dealing with over 20,000 genes in each dog BTW) that can be done can make a tiny impact in diminishing specific risks in pups produced.

Genetic screening does NOT rule out epilepsies or allergies or most heart problems or joint problems or intestinal problems or bloat or poor immune systems.

Very specific companionship traits ARE working traits that some of us VERY MUCH appreciate, and it really is a pet peeve of mine that so many want to pretend that they are not an important part of what people select for when deciding on what dog they want. It is REALLY a pet peeve of mine when someone involved in dogs of another line of work denigrates the LINE of WORK I appreciate the most in dogs by insinuating it has less importance.

When a purpose bred companion dogs does a better job than any other purebred can IT IS WORTH IT!

. . . . Now I realize that I was totally wrong – because companion dogs don’t sit on laps – they SIT ON LAPS. It’s like the difference between chasing sheep and herding them, honestly – at church, for example, Sammy and Godric greeted many people, they sat on Honour’s lap without asking to get off, and they were handed around to the gentle old ladies and the not-so-gentle youth leaders and the kids getting lemonade afterward. In every set of arms they were still and accepting; to every face they were friendly; they never barked or fought to get down and they quietly stood between Honour’s feet when they weren’t greeting people.

If you want to appreciate how difficult that is for a dog, imagine carrying around and handing a one-year-old German Shorthaired Pointer to five eighty-year-old women in a row. A Papillon and a GSP are the same animal. Same brain, same basic instinctive reactions. It’s just as much a specialized behavior for a dog to sit still on a stranger’s lap as she plays with your hair and sniffs your head (everybody sniffs Sammy’s head; I know that it’s actually because she’s super, super clean and soft all the time and they’re surprised how nice she feels and smells, but I have to laugh because it’s like she’s made out of cheesecake) as it is for a dog to point a bird.

And you can tell afterward, too. When we got back in the car after two hours of being social, the two of them CRASHED. They were so exhausted they licked at food for a minute and then fell asleep with their faces in the bowl. These are dogs who run and play all day, but being still and perfect is concentrated, deliberate work.

It’s honestly amazing to watch; they change just as much as a corgi changes when they turn on to sheep. It’s not that they don’t need training, because of course they do, but the basic brain structures are already there. When we were at an outdoor restaurant on Saturday, we were eating fries with a three-month-old Papillon puppy lounging on the picnic table next to plates of food. He’s a complete wild man at home, but out and about he watched everybody walk by, wagged at them, didn’t move toward them unless told to, and took food only when it was handed to him. Trust me, it’s not because I am a great trainer. It’s because for three hundred years his breed has been refined until that kind of thing is hard-wired.

It’s given me a whole new facet of dog-ness to appreciate, honestly, and be fascinated by. And it doesn’t hurt that they are so cute it’s ridiculous.​
- http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jYFNAIiWUmQJ:rufflyspeaking.net/blog/godric-and-sammys-9-to-5/+companion+dogs+"they+sit+on+laps"&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

I have PURPOSE BRED COMPANION MUTTS from a FANTASTIC BREEDER. She is breeding a LINE forward. This is a traditional breeding method in MANY places where the registries have made little impact and where show/sport venues are few and far between if they even exist. I live in one of those places and less than 10% of our dogs are registered. We also do not euthanize dogs for space in our two large city shelter systems, and indeed import small dogs up from Southern USA kill shelters regularly to offset the demand for small dogs here that is driving UP the number of commercial operations. Placing medium/large rambunctious young adult mixes or breeds with little training will always be a helluva chore. That should go without saying.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity for the long post.:)

SOB
 

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SOB, do you have any pictures of your dogs? I don't think I've ever seen them.

No, this is totally not relevant to the thread at all. :eek:

I imagine bernerdoodles are popular because people want non shedding dogs. Not my type of coat (too much work) but they seem popular these days. There, I was relevent. lol
 

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Laurelin I did have photos of my dogs (and kids) on line at one point and received threats - to my kids and dogs - for my opinions. The threats were serious and showed someone was paying close enough attention to know the time my kids caught the school bus. I had to call in the RCMP.

My identity is now not open for those that want to threaten.

SOB
 

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Laurelin I did have photos of my dogs (and kids) on line at one point and received threats - to my kids and dogs - for my opinions. The threats were serious and showed someone was paying close enough attention to know the time my kids caught the school bus. I had to call in the RCMP.

My identity is now not open for those that want to threaten.

SOB
Over cross bred dogs?! WTH is wrong with people?

I actually happen to agree with you. There's nothing wrong with responsibly breeding mixed breeds in and of itself. It's when people "oopsy" breed litters with no planning and no ability to properly place the dogs, or engage in large scale commercial breeding, that it causes problems.
 

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Oh god.... THE COAT!! The horror. I hadn't even thought about that before. Our Bernese left tumbleweeds of fur rolling around our house (and yes it was vacuumed every day). Must be a groomers worst nightmare to combine that with poodle fluff and "non-shedding". I've never met one but now I'm interested. Our Bernese was not very bright, not overly biddable and only lived to 10 (a decent age for a Berner but still way too young). I could see how the intelligence and biddability of the poodle combined with longer lifespan could be a plus. They have a very different bone structure though, I wonder how that would be combined.

It all depends on the individual dogs and breeders of course.
 

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Laurelin I did have photos of my dogs (and kids) on line at one point and received threats - to my kids and dogs - for my opinions. The threats were serious and showed someone was paying close enough attention to know the time my kids caught the school bus. I had to call in the RCMP.
WHAT?!!

Man. There are some nut jobs out there.
 
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