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Discussion Starter · #201 ·
You very well could be right... we’ll find out soon enough; But if that dog and/or Ginger are more substantially Akita rather than DS mixes, it wouldn’t be because of the coats... I can’t say for certain about that dog; but Ginger has a coat identical to short haired dutch shepherds we’ve encountered and quite different from Akitas.....the dutchy coat exceedingly glossy/slick/shiny/smooth suspended by a shallow but dense layer of white feathery undercoat... the coarse but supple top coat laying very smoothly as to sometimes look like a very short single coat from any distance unless she gets excited then her coat can stand up fluffy... Akitas coats are finer and much poofier...not nearly as glossy and reflective as a short haired dutchy, especially the poofy curling tails...
is it possible you could be misreading the line between puffy coat and bulging muscles? That dog appears to me to have massive neck and head muscles like ginger.....and a blocky massive build by shepherd standards...especially a female......
I understand the ways it seems unlikely Ginger is a Dutch shepherd... It seems unlikely to me too; but i can honestly say that her being any other breed actually seems even less likely to me! We shall see.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #202 ·
is it possible you could be misreading the line between puffy coat and bulging muscles? That dog appears to me to have massive neck and head muscles like ginger.....and a blocky massive build by shepherd standards...especially a female......
I understand the ways it seems unlikely Ginger is a Dutch shepherd... It seems unlikely to me too; but i can honestly say that her being any other breed actually seems even less likely to me! We shall see.....
 

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No I'm not mistaking muscles for the coat. Both dogs have coats that are unlikely to be purebred coats and the similarities to an akita coat are very strong in my opinion.

Remember that mixed dogs will combine traits in weird ways. It isn't necessarily that X trait will be akita and Y trait will be shepherd. Sometimes, especially with coats, it becomes a mixture. So the topcoat may come from one breed and the undercoat from another breed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #204 ·
So it's taken you 5+ years to decide to do a dna test? Just so you can "prove" to internet strangers that you are right?

I've had dogs all my life. My Mom rescued throughout my childhood, our family friend has a boarding kennel (where I worked as a teenager), my dad showed so we spent many days at dog shows. As an adult, I have rescued, both on my own and with a rescue group.

With all this, I can tell you with 100% certainty: you cannot tell a dog's breed solely on appearance.

I showed my childhood dog. At one show, a woman came over and asked "is she a boxer?". My Mom and I sighed and said yes. The woman apologised and said " you don't understand, I breed boxers". She had intimate knowledge of the breed and still could only hazard the guess that my dog was a boxer. Why? Because my boxer was saved at birth - she was to be put down because she was solid white, but a local kid took her. By the time she came to us, her tail had been cropped to a 1inch nub, her ears were down, her muzzle was to wide and short, her body was too wide, her legs too short, and her energy level was extremely low. She was more often identified as a pitbull than a boxer. But she was purebred.

My Moose-dog was identified as a rootie shepherd cross when I adopted him at 8 weeks. When he grew up, the consensus was that he was a dobie shepherd cross. His dna showed that he was actually a shepherd, poodle, newfie. Never would have guessed that by looking at him, but in hindsight it made sense.

My Bat-dog wasn't even labeled as anything other than shepherd mix when I adopted her at 4 months. She looked like she had maybe pit or another bully brred in her. Her dna said shepherd, corgi, shar pei, chow, beagle, boxer and german shorthair. Again, in hindsight it made sense (although I never saw anything shorthair in appearance or personality).

My Tornado-dog was labeled border collie mix at 7 weeks. His dna says JRT, shih tsu, peke and collie. So far, I see physical traits of the JRT and collie and personality traits of JRT. I still do not see anything shih tsu or peke.

Why all this? Simply put, every "purebred" breed was developed by crossing different breeds. What you see as "definitely dutch shepherd" may not be so. Current dutch shepherds were mixed with Belgians when the original stock was dying out. The original stock was simply a working breed mixed to create a better worker, not to develop a standard on look. The original breed also consisted of non-brindle coats. The brindle only came later.

I hope you get the validation you desire from the dna test.

For me, my love for my dogs has never wavered based on what they were "labeled" as being.
I agree with you! I agree you cannot tell with certainty what a dog is based on appearance alone...but some people from this forum and Most from the DSF would take great offense to your suggestion THEY couldn’t tell because they’re “breed experts”...but I haven’t come back just to prove myself right; I very well might be wrong! But why shouldn’t I come back and update? I wanted this discussion to be about exploring Ginger’s nature, and the nature of dutch shepherds and/or whatever other breed/breeds she turns out to be; not just about how wrong Kevin is... there is limited available info on Dutch Shepherds... especially working variety types...what Ginger turns out to be might be useful or interesting to somebody else...I DID initially join this forum with a chip on my shoulders because the DSF was that nasty to me and i wanted to save anyone the abuse I endured on there if possible... and abuse is the only word.... They were Acutely vicious and abusive in their approach to me for no reason whatsoever because i dared have a spec of scepticism about their ability to know a dogs generic code with cast iron certainty just from an image online..
ONE thing is for SURE... Ginger is obviously certain she is a dutch shepherd lol.....she made that very clear with non-verbal communication...and that counts for a lot in my mind...
 

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Discussion Starter · #205 ·
No I'm not mistaking muscles for the coat. Both dogs have coats that are unlikely to be purebred coats and the similarities to an akita coat are very strong in my opinion.

Remember that mixed dogs will combine traits in weird ways. It isn't necessarily that X trait will be akita and Y trait will be shepherd. Sometimes, especially with coats, it becomes a mixture. So the topcoat may come from one breed and the undercoat from another breed.
It’s funny... some have repetedly insisted Ginger couldn’t possibly be a Dutchy because they’re convinced she has the short single coat of a pitt bull... I would say it is much closer to an akitas coat than a pitt bulls! but Gingers coat isn’t that long... just doesn’t seem long or poofy enough compared with Akita’s to me, especially the tail... but who knows... like you said, mixes can mix characteristics....Whatever mix she is or isn’t however, there were no decernable differences between her coat and purebred dutch shepherds she’s played with; in length, thickness, feel and texture the coats were identical..
 

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Discussion Starter · #206 ·
Hi. I'm just a lurker on this here community but, OP, I recognized your dog immediately because I remember the thread on the Dutch Shepherd Forum from way back when.

I was going to move on, since we both know well enough that you've dug your heels in, I've been debating not posting this at all, but I can't deny that it's starting to grind on me how adamantly you're presenting your dog as a Dutch Shepherd. Though I will admit I'm actually kind of impressed that you're still chugging along with this delusion all these months later. Dedication.

I was owned by a Dutch Shepherd. Her name is Jolene/Jolie and she is inundated with KNVP lines. There's Maligator in there somewhere, I know it. Her teeth are suspiciously sharp and she liked to go underwater and chomp on your legs. But that's neither here nor there. Your girl – though a lovely specimen! – is nothing if not a glorified mutt. I'm sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, but other people's input obviously hasn't left much in the way of an impression so, here I am.

Everyone else has repeatedly pointed out the disqualifying differences in physique and looks so I won't go into it because I know it'd be an exercise in futility. Which, you know, it's your prerogative to ignore the cold hard facts, no skin off my back. But I'm not going to agree that it is fine and dandy to go around telling everyone and their mother that what you have is a Dutch Shepherd. I'll tell you why.

Beeecauuuuuuse.. misrepresentation, that's why. And it tends to be a pearl-clutching event when you're knowingly misidentifying high energy, sensitive, insane but lovable nutjobs like Mals and Dutchies. It's amazing the damage that can be done when you dive into that breed variety unaware that you're investing in what is essentially a German Shepherd on quality crack cocaine.

People who are incompatible with the breed are going to start coming around to thinking this breed is for them because your mix looks a tiny bit similar when you squint and she happens to be easygoing or calm or whatever. It's false advertising, basically. These people often end up with dogs who have unchecked stimulus thresholds, weak nerves, and drive leakage out the wazoo that isn't getting the appropriate amount of attention from people who aren't equipped to handle the dog they have because they had no clue what they were getting themselves into. And all because they had an interaction with one dog who wasn't even the breed they got their hands on.

It's like someone asking to taste your blueberry icecream and then inquiring about what it is because they want the same thing. You tell them it's blackberry, they go and get blackberry icecream... and it's omg AWFUL. They end up leaving their cone half-finished.. melting.. oozing.. tearing up your couch cushions while you have a garage sale...

Look. I know you're holding onto this conviction because they're a "rare" and "exotic" looking breed. I get it, it feels nice when people turn their heads and go on and on about how cool your dog is, and I guess some people feel like it gives them status. But, despite what you want desperately to believe, no matter how hard you try to cram her into this mold she doesn't fit in, like I and everyone else is telling you.. Ginger is not a dutch shepherd.

Go ahead and keep posting photos of her compared to legit Dutchies while saying "ok whatever, but what about NOW?" but… it's not going to change the outcome. You're lying to yourself and you're lying to other people which is worse. I couldn't tell you what kind of mix she is without doubt shading my opinion – hell, I can't even speculate with an honest eye because there is such a diverse pool of COMMON breeds that could pop out a twin to yours. I can think of dozens of possible matches right off the bat because so many breeds come in brindle. It's not really a trait specific to DS and breeders aren't hoarding some secret recipe from everyone else.

And honestly, I could take my mom's creaky old chocolate lab and spin him as the rare and awe-inspiring Willy Wonka Retriever. Come one, come all, behold this magnificent beast! And I'm sure there would be spectators gathering around squinting with an air of vague familiarity.. "Oh yeah, sure, I think I've heard of them. Yeah, that's totally a Willy Wonka Retriever! Hey guys, look at this chick's Willy Wonka retriever! I saw one in the distance this one time. Was it in Alaska? Huh. I think it was a moose. No, wait, yeah. It was definitely a moose. GUYS! This chick's dog has moose in his bloodline!"

There are a lot of people who can't discern characteristics distinctive to any one breed, and I'm even less inclined to believe that you're receiving thousands or even dozens of confirmations from the public that you were right all along about this one very specific, very uncommon dog breed. If there are ~thousands~ of people in kansas telling you with no uncertainty that she is a Dutch shepherd, I want to know what's in the water on your inch of the country. Maybe forage through your woods for some.. edible… plants...

Jokes aside, what anyone thinks ultimately doesn't change the fact that my mom's dog is just an ordinary, creaky old chocolate lab. And there's nothing wrong with that. Zip. Zilch. Nada. It's perfectly great, he's a great dog and people give him LOTS of attention. Not because he's a Willy Wonka Retriever, but because he's an outgoing dog who loves everyone he meets. Awesomely, fantastically ordinary. I don't know what's so bad about that.

But hey, if you do your research and find that DS are a match for what you want in a dog, go for it. But don't do it for the wrong reasons. They are splendid dogs for the right person. And for that person, it's all over. They're hooked on that crack cocaine forever and for always. They'll try to make you go to rehab but you'll say no... no.. noo.....

Anyway, sorry for the lengthiness and even sorrier if it's cluttered, I am dead tired.

And because you asked "what is a dutch shepherd", here is a dutch shepherd. I have adult pics of her but they're on a dead computer so I don't have access, unfortunately. She's a detection dog these days, I had to let her go years ago and not a day goes by where I don't miss those stabby radar ears.







I doubt anyone ever ran out and aquireda dutchy because of interactions with me and Ginger. Laying claim to a rare, exclusive and exotic breed never had anything to do with my belief Ginger is a DS; It’s her combination of shepherd characteristics and her brindle coat... which are not common at all....nor was I ever“lying“ to myself and others... I simply believed and believe Ginger shows dutch shepherd traits... period; I understand if she is a dutchy she would be an anomalous one... but I’ve done lots of research that indicate their are two different typesof duchies...with considerably different traits; the DSF deems one of those, and all the websites that speak of those as “incorrect”.... we will see what the DNA test shows...I believe Dutch Shepherds are actually not exactly a “pure” breed anyway by the strictest definitions of some but are actually “glorified mutts”... rare, specifically bred shepherd “mutts”.. so thats no insult.... what your saying is Ginger is a non glorified mutt....maybe thats what the DNA test will show.... what Ginger ISN’T is common... anyone that says they’ve seen LOTS of dogs like Ginger is lying... I’ve never met another dog quite like her; not even dutch shepherds... like I said if she is one she is an anomaly...nonetheless DS is the only breed she exhibits the traits of; and the only breed she has shown close similarities too. I would have pegged the dog in your post as a dutch shepherd immediately... I’ve never failed to spot one... as huge of difference as you might see. Rhea, a pure bred dutchy I posted ages ago looks similar and looks dramatically different than Ginger...... seeing themplaying together was a different story; you couldn’t imagine how uncanny their similarities were, and would simply have no idea based on photos. Ginger is a very sweet mellow dog; that is not to say she hasn’t been a real handful at times... she can be extremely strong willed and at times excessively enthusiastic and very intense.. and so strong as to be intimidating to handle... she definately wouldn’t be a dog for just anyone......never ever bite though...Not the tiniest play nibble as a puppy.even... always and only kisses.... tons and tons and tons of kisses... HOURS of kisses if i let her!
 

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This thread is absolutely wild :ROFLMAO:. I've just learned that there are an excessive amount of Dutch Shepherds in Kansas, which as a Kansan, I was not previously aware of, lol.

It will be interesting to see what results you get. I adopted a Cocker puppy 7 years ago. No doubt he was a Cocker. I posted on a Cocker forum asking the people there if he was a Cocker and got resounding replies of "yes! He's a working cocker!". Decided to do an Embark test. He is a Cocker - about 45% of him anyway. The rest? Border Collie (mostly) and even Great Pyrenees, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, and Chow. When I told people of his mix, I got a lot of responses suddenly that they could definitely see the BC in him. The rest of the breeds seem a little out of left field, but he's from OK and his rescue is constantly taking in those breeds and mixes thereof, so not uncommon or impossible.

Dog Plant Cloud Dog breed Carnivore


The point being, as others have said, that if you go out and buy a purebred dog from a good breeder you can expect certain traits. If you get one from a bad breeder, you can expect those traits but you may very well not have them. With mixed breeds though? It's all up in the air. And if your dog is a mix, it doesn't mean she doesn't need mental stimulation or that she's not a good dog, or that she can't do shepherd stuff or act like a shepherd. I'm not a hunter, but I would bet that my dog, even as a mix, could do a decent job of flushing birds if I were so inclined to go that route (he is very much so inclined to go that route, lol).
 

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Discussion Starter · #208 ·
This thread is absolutely wild :ROFLMAO:. I've just learned that there are an excessive amount of Dutch Shepherds in Kansas, which as a Kansan, I was not previously aware of, lol.

It will be interesting to see what results you get. I adopted a Cocker puppy 7 years ago. No doubt he was a Cocker. I posted on a Cocker forum asking the people there if he was a Cocker and got resounding replies of "yes! He's a working cocker!". Decided to do an Embark test. He is a Cocker - about 45% of him anyway. The rest? Border Collie (mostly) and even Great Pyrenees, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, and Chow. When I told people of his mix, I got a lot of responses suddenly that they could definitely see the BC in him. The rest of the breeds seem a little out of left field, but he's from OK and his rescue is constantly taking in those breeds and mixes thereof, so not uncommon or impossible.

View attachment 265461

The point being, as others have said, that if you go out and buy a purebred dog from a good breeder you can expect certain traits. If you get one from a bad breeder, you can expect those traits but you may very well not have them. With mixed breeds though? It's all up in the air. And if your dog is a mix, it doesn't mean she doesn't need mental stimulation or that she's not a good dog, or that she can't do shepherd stuff or act like a shepherd. I'm not a hunter, but I would bet that my dog, even as a mix, could do a decent job of flushing birds if I were so inclined to go that route (he is very much so inclined to go that route, lol).
the DNA test is indeed Wisdom Panel; We shall see. I wouldn’t say there are an excessive number of Dutch Shepherds in kansas... I’ve still met fewer than two dozen, and I’ve been lookingfor them...but they’ve been using then in K9 units in police forces for a long time here...I’ve wondered if any are bred here for Ft Reiley possibly.... i believe my first dog i adopted in the early 90s was 1/2 dutchy/1/2 rott... Though I remained ignorant of their existance before adopting Ginger and then researching what breed she might be. I was always looking for a rott/shepherd mix like Val, but could never find one with her brindled rott markings.... I’ve still never seen a dog that looked like her; she had dutchy traits Ginger does not... astonishing speed, agility, and jumping ability. She was wickedly smart and understood a remarkable number of words... I took to spelling them out as to not get her excited but then she would learn the spelling...she would also try and “talk”... i never understood her, but she would make the strangest sounds as if she was clearly trying to say something...and incredible focus... i had a couple of dozen toys i woukd hide and tell her to find one soecifically; and she would be gone over an hour sometimes and yet always find it...
 

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she had dutchy traits Ginger does not... astonishing speed, agility, and jumping ability. She was wickedly smart and understood a remarkable number of words
The thing is none of those traits are solely dutch shepherd. Border collies, auusies, cattle dogs, poodles, other shepherds, huskies, terriers, and so on, also share those traits.

There are no behavioral traits that are restricted to just one breed. Rather they tend to be associated with a type of dog. Sight hounds tend to have similar traits, as do herding dogs or terriers. Not every breed within the type will have all the same traits, but no trait will be so limited as to only appear in one single breed. For example, herding dogs will share intelligence, agility, speed and loyalty, but a GSD and collie will be more eager to please their owner than a corgi or old english. A sheltie or groenedael are more likely to be shy than a malinois or aussie. Huskies will share the intelligence and speed, but will skip the loyalty and "eager to please" of a border collie. A GSD will be loyal and intelligent but won't be as tenacious as a JRT, who will also be intelligent and loyal.
 
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Discussion Starter · #210 ·
The thing is none of those traits are solely dutch shepherd. Border collies, auusies, cattle dogs, poodles, other shepherds, huskies, terriers, and so on, also share those traits.

There are no behavioral traits that are restricted to just one breed. Rather they tend to be associated with a type of dog. Sight hounds tend to have similar traits, as do herding dogs or terriers. Not every breed within the type will have all the same traits, but no trait will be so limited as to only appear in one single breed. For example, herding dogs will share intelligence, agility, speed and loyalty, but a GSD and collie will be more eager to please their owner than a corgi or old english. A sheltie or groenedael are more likely to be shy than a malinois or aussie. Huskies will share the intelligence and speed, but will skip the loyalty and "eager to please" of a border collie. A GSD will be loyal and intelligent but won't be as tenacious as a JRT, who will also be intelligent and loyal.
Well yes... I agree with everything you’ve said. I am a very logical, scientific type; everything you’ve said is logical... as a scientific type; I’m certain of nothing! I honestly can’t say for sure how Ginger came to be! But I’m very curious...
I’ve gotten grief my whole life for being an insufferrably stubborn, arrogant know it all... I was confined to a closet as punishment in grade school because I refused to accept that Pluto was bigger than Murcury... because I knew that just wasnt true.... But nothing your saying is inconsistent with how I understand things... Probably to a greater extreme... canine genetics is an endlessly complex subject; I see every dog as an individual.. no two dogs are identical... and breeds are a forever morphing and evolving thing; I’m old enough to have literally watch breeds change over time... The GSD of the 70s was different than the GSD of today.... which brings me back to Ginger...Since she was just a puppy that showed up; I had no pre-conceptions of what she was; and I had never heard of a dutch shepherd.. I initially thought Akita-shepherd mix... but in further research ruled that out as unlikely.. it was only after ruling out many mixes as unlikely that I learned of the dutch shepherd... but what Ginger really seemed MOST similar to wasn’t Dutch Shepherds of TODAY, but their ancestors! Anything is possible... maybe she is some other mix completely that manifests emulating an akita-ish retroshepherd... but fundamentally Ginger is shepherd like in every way... maybe an akita-ish shepherd but a shepherd; much more than she seems like a shepherdish-akita...
As unlikely as it seems though, I can’t honestly deny she seems like an XL version of dogs that lived over a century ago... which i find confusing and facinating. Dutch shepherds are rare... and almost extinct decades ago... but were actually a far more numerous breed long ago... perhaps hundreds of thousands... and is a very old... even ancient breed historically...that tells me it is possible that as rare as they are... the genetics of their ancestors might be widespread in small or varying amounts... If Ginger has genetics originating from dutchy/shepherd ancestory... what would that make her?
 

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Again, the "fault" in your theory is that you based ruling out breeds based on the idea that she is a crossbreed (the offspring of two different purebreds) rather than a mixed breed. You removed the akita-shepherd because you didn't see what you think of as "akita" in her appearance. But in that, you failed to consider three important things:
1. that you simply weren't recognizing akita traits (physical or behavioral) because you were basing it on passive knowledge (reading breed standards and looking at photos), rather than active knowledge (having extensive interaction with the breed and thereby learning the variations in the breed that don't necessarily match the breed standard).
2. that a mixed breed dog may not show an obvious trait of a contained breed because it may be much more subtle than with a crossbreed.
3. again, the more breeds in the mix, the more likely you will see a different breed. This is extremely common with bully breeds because they have been developed by breeding together other bully breeds. I told my dad once that a friend just got a "boxer pitbull mix" puppy. His response "that's redundant".

And very often, the more adamant you are, the more wrong you end up being.

With Moose-dog, I was positive he had dobie in him. I was completely wrong. What I thought was a sure thing was anything but.

With Bat-dog, I was all over the place: well, she definitely has GSD in her; she talks and she's very good at scenting, so maybe beagle; she has black on her tongue, so maybe one of the Japanese breeds - most likely chow, but she has this real velvety coat right around her mouth (and only there), so maybe shar pei; she has the occasional "fit" where she gets mad, maybe that's "corgi rage"; she uses her front feet a lot, maybe boxer. Oh heck, I don't know, she could be anything. I was totally surprised when her results came back with all those breeds. The only unguessed was the german shorthair. And in hindsight, had I seen her " point" once BEFORE I did the test, I might have thought "some sort of setter or pointer".
 

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Discussion Starter · #212 ·
Again, the "fault" in your theory is that you based ruling out breeds based on the idea that she is a crossbreed (the offspring of two different purebreds) rather than a mixed breed. You removed the akita-shepherd because you didn't see what you think of as "akita" in her appearance. But in that, you failed to consider three important things:
1. that you simply weren't recognizing akita traits (physical or behavioral) because you were basing it on passive knowledge (reading breed standards and looking at photos), rather than active knowledge (having extensive interaction with the breed and thereby learning the variations in the breed that don't necessarily match the breed standard).
2. that a mixed breed dog may not show an obvious trait of a contained breed because it may be much more subtle than with a crossbreed.
3. again, the more breeds in the mix, the more likely you will see a different breed. This is extremely common with bully breeds because they have been developed by breeding together other bully breeds. I told my dad once that a friend just got a "boxer pitbull mix" puppy. His response "that's redundant".

And very often, the more adamant you are, the more wrong you end up being.

With Moose-dog, I was positive he had dobie in him. I was completely wrong. What I thought was a sure thing was anything but.

With Bat-dog, I was all over the place: well, she definitely has GSD in her; she talks and she's very good at scenting, so maybe beagle; she has black on her tongue, so maybe one of the Japanese breeds - most likely chow, but she has this real velvety coat right around her mouth (and only there), so maybe shar pei; she has the occasional "fit" where she gets mad, maybe that's "corgi rage"; she uses her front feet a lot, maybe boxer. Oh heck, I don't know, she could be anything. I was totally surprised when her results came back with all those breeds. The only unguessed was the german shorthair. And in hindsight, had I seen her " point" once BEFORE I did the test, I might have thought "some sort of setter or pointer".
I’ve ruled out absolutely nothing... I STARTED out thinking Ginger was an akita mix... I simply “ruled it out” of being the most LIKELY! It’s possible... Akitas are beautiful dogs and I have nothing agaibst them at all... If she turns out to be an akita mix I wouldn’t be upset or dissapointed in the least..... And I see an akita-ish ness to gingers appearance; thats why I started out thinking thst what she might be...but I just don’t think so...really comoaring Ginger to Akitas in real time.....
 

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But your "ruling out as unlikely" is not based on anything real.

For example, you rule out an akita mix as unlikely even though you saw a physical resemblance just because she looks and acts more shepherdy. You think it is far more likely that she is dutch shepherd because she reminds you of the early dutch shepherds. Yet she doesn't remind you of dutch shepherds as they exist today.

As we agree, an akita-shepherd mix may show only a little akita and a lot more shepherd. In addition, there may be, and are likely to be, other breeds in there that will affect the dog's appearance and temperament. So ruling it out as "unlikely" is completely disregarding what does make you see akita because you are thinking "it's not enough".

Now look at the dutch shepherd resemblance.
but what Ginger really seemed MOST similar to wasn’t Dutch Shepherds of TODAY, but their ancestors!
Dutch shepherds as a breed are only about 100 years old. So to what "ancestors" are you comparing them? Before that, they were simply dogs of mixed backgrounds being bred to do a job and not to conform to a certain look.

They were not recognized as a breed by the AKC until 2017. Why? Because there weren't enough of them in the states. Folks who got dutch shepherds prior to that were buying and transporting them from Europe. And when you spend that much money to get a dog, you do NOT let it breed with whatever's around and you do NOT let the puppies (even if an accidental litter) end up in a shelter, rescue or on the street because it hurts the breed. So, the odds of a dutch shepherd breeding with a dog of a different breed or breed mixture in the states is not just unlikely, but almost impossible. And finding a dutch shepherd purebred or mix puppy on the streets, or in a shelter or rescue, was just as impossible.

Now, with the breed recognized by the AKC and people looking for the next "protection dog", the dutch shepherd is being bought by people who are willing to breed indiscriminately and who are not researching the breed and abandoning them to shelters, etc when they can't control them. So now the breed is starting to show up. But, it is still far more likely that the brindled shepherd at the shelter is actually just a GSD mix.
 
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Discussion Starter · #214 ·
But your "ruling out as unlikely" is not based on anything real.

For example, you rule out an akita mix as unlikely even though you saw a physical resemblance just because she looks and acts more shepherdy. You think it is far more likely that she is dutch shepherd because she reminds you of the early dutch shepherds. Yet she doesn't remind you of dutch shepherds as they exist today.

As we agree, an akita-shepherd mix may show only a little akita and a lot more shepherd. In addition, there may be, and are likely to be, other breeds in there that will affect the dog's appearance and temperament. So ruling it out as "unlikely" is completely disregarding what does make you see akita because you are thinking "it's not enough".

Now look at the dutch shepherd resemblance.


Dutch shepherds as a breed are only about 100 years old. So to what "ancestors" are you comparing them? Before that, they were simply dogs of mixed backgrounds being bred to do a job and not to conform to a certain look.

They were not recognized as a breed by the AKC until 2017. Why? Because there weren't enough of them in the states. Folks who got dutch shepherds prior to that were buying and transporting them from Europe. And when you spend that much money to get a dog, you do NOT let it breed with whatever's around and you do NOT let the puppies (even if an accidental litter) end up in a shelter, rescue or on the street because it hurts the breed. So, the odds of a dutch shepherd breeding with a dog of a different breed or breed mixture in the states is not just unlikely, but almost impossible. And finding a dutch shepherd purebred or mix puppy on the streets, or in a shelter or rescue, was just as impossible.

Now, with the breed recognized by the AKC and people looking for the next "protection dog", the dutch shepherd is being bought by people who are willing to breed indiscriminately and who are not researching the breed and abandoning them to shelters, etc when they can't control them. So now the breed is starting to show up. But, it is still far more likely that the brindled shepherd at the shelter is actually just a GSD mix.
 

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Discussion Starter · #215 ·
Sorry... my stupod phone...to andwer your question about ancestors, “spitz”, a pedigree dutch shepherd of 130 years ago, beats similarities to Ginger... a nearly identical white patch, brindled face, a couple white toenails (I think in the 1890 fuzzy photo)...
 

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Discussion Starter · #216 ·
Rhea was the second dutch shepherd I met... a pure bred young female the same age as ginger... pure bred and 62 lbs...Ginger was more enthusiastic about meeting Rhea than any orher dog she’s met.. thats why i claim she thinks she is a dutchy... they look so different don’t they? We all live in our own realities... and nithing I say might fit into YOURS, but in MY reality, along with Rhea’s owner and snyone nearby, Ginger and Rhea were obviously the same breed in ways broad and subtle... Ginger was basically Rhea with a white patch, white toes, and 30lbs of muscle on a very similar frame...gingers dementions were within an inch of Rheas in every direction... the coats were identical in legth and texture... Ginger was more like Rhea than any other dog she has met...their movements were mirror images of each other.
 

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Discussion Starter · #217 ·
The first dutchy i met seemed perhaps more similar to Ginger but was just a puppy... the ownwr did say the dogs father was 120 pounds, which of course is too big by DSF standards just like Ginger... but purchased as a dutch shepherd nonetheless... but never an adult dutchy as big as Gunger... excelt the large mail mostly black dutchy (DSF concluded he WAS a DS), about the same weight but with longer hair. As far as mixes go; there is a dog living two blocks from me with floppy ears and only 1/2 covered with a brindke coat... but gave me a ditchy feeling... i asked the owner what type of dog it was.... he said Embark concluded she was over 50% dutch shepherd, which he had neber heard of before that...
The main reason I tgought of an akita GSD mix initially is because I had never met a dutch shepherd before ginger... if I had O would have thought thats what she was... mainly yrying to figure out the big shepherd ears combined with the brindke coat... but then i looked up akita GSD crosses and none of them looked like ginger....
 

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Discussion Starter · #218 ·
Actually the dog most identical to Ginger as far as size and shape have been large white german shepherds... which in my exoerience have been quite different from other GSDs body wise.... donetimes very stocky without any sliope to the back hips...
I’ve read anything I could find online about dutch shepherds, and there are several websites and info I’ve found with conpletely contradictory information... I’ve bren told the ones condradicting anything said ny the DSF are “incorrect” websites....i suppose the ones that say things like 90% of working dutchies ate unregisyeted; are larger and heavier built with much karger heads... so ginger just logically fits that description.. but since i had never heard of or met a dutch shepherd, at least knowingly, before Ginger... so I had zero oreconceptions about dutch shepherds; I’m not fashion or status aware; I had zero romantic or emotional attachment to what a dutch shepherd was; as opposed to people in the DSF who obviously felt very strongly sbout what a dutch shepherd IS NOT... so they have a far more emotionally charged opinion.... I fan see how or why they think Gibger SHOULDN’T be a dutch shephers... an abomination...she has hip dysplasia after all (Not severe)... but I was never going to breed Ginger... so I’m not the enemy...as far as what she is... well the DNA test will tell us! My only fear has been she would just come put as “dog” with nothing definitive...i would hope it will be more enlightening than that...
 

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The main reason I tgought of an akita GSD mix initially is because I had never met a dutch shepherd before ginger... if I had O would have thought thats what she was... mainly yrying to figure out the big shepherd ears combined with the brindke coat... but then i looked up akita GSD crosses and none of them looked like ginger....
Again, your arguments are faulty. You are ignoring everything that doesn't fit your hypothesis.

to andwer your question about ancestors, “spitz”, a pedigree dutch shepherd of 130 years ago, beats similarities to Ginger... a nearly identical white patch, brindled face, a couple white toenails (I think in the 1890 fuzzy photo)...
So you are basing your entire argument on a 130 year old grainy photo that shows nothing but a brindled shepherdy looking dog. "She must be a dutch shepherd because look she has the same white patch" (many many many dogs of many many many breeds and mixes have that same white patch).

Reminds me of an aunt's argument that we are descended from some famous Native American chief.

Never mind the decades of geneology work my Mom had done proving there was no connection. Ignore that dna testing show abssolutely zero Native American in our genes. He MUST be our ancestor "because his hands looks just like my sons"...

Oh, and forget that the image she based this on was a painting.

As my Mom would point out, you can't argue with logic like that.

So I will bow out of this. You keep saying you have no " investment" in Ginger being a dutch shepherd, but the truth is, you are latching on to ghosts to "prove" a lineage that isn't going to be there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #220 ·
Again, your arguments are faulty. You are ignoring everything that doesn't fit your hypothesis.



So you are basing your entire argument on a 130 year old grainy photo that shows nothing but a brindled shepherdy looking dog. "She must be a dutch shepherd because look she has the same white patch" (many many many dogs of many many many breeds and mixes have that same white patch).

Reminds me of an aunt's argument that we are descended from some famous Native American chief.

Never mind the decades of geneology work my Mom had done proving there was no connection. Ignore that dna testing show abssolutely zero Native American in our genes. He MUST be our ancestor "because his hands looks just like my sons"...

Oh, and forget that the image she based this on was a painting.

As my Mom would point out, you can't argue with logic like that.

So I will bow out of this. You keep saying you have no " investment" in Ginger being a dutch shepherd, but the truth is, you are latching on to ghosts to "prove" a lineage that isn't going to be there.
Your not saying my arguments are faulty; your saying my FACTS are faulty! Your basing YOUR argument on what you see is Ginger’s obviously Akinta traits... I’m basing my hypothesis in the FACTS that Gingers coat, ears, and tail are identical to a dutch shepherd’s...and are nothing like an akita’s. Maybe my facts are all weong and I’m delutional and hallucinatory... We shall see in the DNA test right? But I simply am not going to believe anything anyone says online OVER what i can see woth my own eyes and feel with my own fingers; period! Nobody would! People make a big deal put if the fact I am so outnumbered in the opinion that Ginger is a “Dutchy”...it doesn’t matter if it’s 100 to 1 if the 100 reasons are self contreadictory! As in, ginger is obviously not a dutchy because she has an akita coat... and she is obviously not a dutchy because she has a pitt bull coat! THAT MAKES NO SENSE! Ginger has the coat and ears of a Dutch Shepherd; plain and simple... whether or not this makes her a “Dutch Shepherd” is another question altogether... but a better wuestion altogether, because it’s based on FACTS!.....
 
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