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Discussion Starter · #181 ·
Seeing Dutch shepherds walk around regularly, I'll say your dog doesn't strike me as a Dutch shepherd. ;)

The kruising Hollandse herders you speak of are also referred to KNPV Dutch shepherds. They are an actual thing, you're right about that, it's not a myth. :) These dogs are not recognized as official Dutch shepherds and don't have FCI pedigrees, but KNPV dogs do have known lineages and their own pedigrees, though I do not know the specifics there. The dog will be written down as a 'Hollandse herder X' or 'Mechelse herder X' or 'Duitse herder X' to show it's not an actual Dutch shepherd or Malinois or GSD, but looks like one and is from KNPV lines, so has those dogs in its pedigree. These KNPV bred dogs are intense dogs with lots of character, bred for sport and work. If you can appreciate and work with their qualities, you can make them do most anything. :)

Even so, your dog doesn't strike me as a KNPV Dutch shepherd either, I'm sorry. ;)

I agree with JohnnyBandit. I wish those people on the Dutch shepherd forum were a little nicer to you though. I can see where your thoughts about your dog's origins come from.
well I’m finally getting a DNA test on Ginger... what will you say when it confirms Ginger is a Dutch Shepherd? Will you apologize to me??? i would actually find it more fascinating if it indicated any other breed predominantly...she might not fit your idea of a dutchy... but Ginger has and ONLY has dutch shepherd traits... she is very shepherd and very brindled... all other breeds speculated about by others here or the dutch shepherd forum were all bogus, based on traits she doesnt have... she’s not a mastiff, akita, or pitt mix... her coat is nothing like a pitt bulls and exactly like a dutch shepherds.... Ive met several DSDs since Ive been active on here... there are several in my neighborhood even....all have recognized her as obviously a dutch shepherd...as have police from K9 units. I’m now convinced my previous dog, Valkyrie, was 1/2 rott and 1/2 dutch shepherd; she had all the dutchy characteristics Ginger doesn’t have... extraordinary speed, agility, coordination and athleticism...Ginger is easily twice her strength with a far more powerful bite... one thing... is I’m SO WRONG about Ginger...how is it I’ve had the ability to spot dutch shepherds so easily and accurately?!? Ginger defined what a dutch shepherd was to me initially.... Why is it that dogs I’ve met that were similar to her have unfailingly been dutch shepherds?!? I’m sorry if i come off as intractible or contrarian... but what you and so many others have said about Ginger... and me... makes no sense...
Oh well; I’ll have PROOF soon enough. I have, nor have ever had, any reason to delude myself about what ginger is; or just WANT her to be a DS so bad as to blind me.... Since i never knew what a DS was before ginger... even after already having a half dutchy.... I was disappointed you would follow the herd in such conformity and groupthink.....Ginger is a brindled shepherd... whatever she actually is, it was never “nonsense” to think her a dutchy... and believing so has helped guide me in raising her, which was the whole reason for believing she was a dutchy!! My horrific experience with the abusive, hate filled bullies at the Dutch Shepherd forum turned me off from social media completely and altogether for all these years...they are a profoundly pathetic lot of people unworthy of such magnificent dogs...
 

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So it's taken you 5+ years to decide to do a dna test? Just so you can "prove" to internet strangers that you are right?

I've had dogs all my life. My Mom rescued throughout my childhood, our family friend has a boarding kennel (where I worked as a teenager), my dad showed so we spent many days at dog shows. As an adult, I have rescued, both on my own and with a rescue group.

With all this, I can tell you with 100% certainty: you cannot tell a dog's breed solely on appearance.

I showed my childhood dog. At one show, a woman came over and asked "is she a boxer?". My Mom and I sighed and said yes. The woman apologised and said " you don't understand, I breed boxers". She had intimate knowledge of the breed and still could only hazard the guess that my dog was a boxer. Why? Because my boxer was saved at birth - she was to be put down because she was solid white, but a local kid took her. By the time she came to us, her tail had been cropped to a 1inch nub, her ears were down, her muzzle was to wide and short, her body was too wide, her legs too short, and her energy level was extremely low. She was more often identified as a pitbull than a boxer. But she was purebred.

My Moose-dog was identified as a rootie shepherd cross when I adopted him at 8 weeks. When he grew up, the consensus was that he was a dobie shepherd cross. His dna showed that he was actually a shepherd, poodle, newfie. Never would have guessed that by looking at him, but in hindsight it made sense.

My Bat-dog wasn't even labeled as anything other than shepherd mix when I adopted her at 4 months. She looked like she had maybe pit or another bully brred in her. Her dna said shepherd, corgi, shar pei, chow, beagle, boxer and german shorthair. Again, in hindsight it made sense (although I never saw anything shorthair in appearance or personality).

My Tornado-dog was labeled border collie mix at 7 weeks. His dna says JRT, shih tsu, peke and collie. So far, I see physical traits of the JRT and collie and personality traits of JRT. I still do not see anything shih tsu or peke.

Why all this? Simply put, every "purebred" breed was developed by crossing different breeds. What you see as "definitely dutch shepherd" may not be so. Current dutch shepherds were mixed with Belgians when the original stock was dying out. The original stock was simply a working breed mixed to create a better worker, not to develop a standard on look. The original breed also consisted of non-brindle coats. The brindle only came later.

I hope you get the validation you desire from the dna test.

For me, my love for my dogs has never wavered based on what they were "labeled" as being.
 

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Discussion Starter · #184 ·
Nope, if she was black I would still absolutely be saying gsd/pit mix.

I'm sorry you're not being validated here and we're not saying what you want to hear, but that dog does not look like a dutch shepherd. She looks like a 'something blocky X GSD'. Since she IS brindle that means one parent was, but that parent was almost definitely not a dutch shepherd. Their breeding is WAY too tightly controlled for that to be a possibility, or for her to have landed in a shelter. It just does not happen.
Well, I’ve FINALLY ordered a DNA test for Ginger... are you ready to apologise for being so arrogant, dismissive, and nasty when it confirms Ginger is indeed a dutch shepherd?!?
 

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Discussion Starter · #185 ·
We still talking about this?

The dog is not a Dutch shepherd. Never was and never will be.

For some reason the OP is attempting to convince people it is a Dutchie. I really thinks he is trying to convince himself.
And we are STILL talking about this! I ordered a DNA test for Ginger to confirm what Ive known for years... she is a Dutch Shepherd.... the Dutch Shepherd Forum and all of you guys have set a very low bar... if she has one percent Dutch Shepherd in her then you’re all completely wrong...
 

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And we are STILL talking about this! I ordered a DNA test for Ginger to confirm what Ive known for years... she is a Dutch Shepherd.... the Dutch Shepherd Forum and all of you guys have set a very low bar... if she has one percent Dutch Shepherd in her then you’re all completely wrong...
And again, when the test confirms what we’ve all been telling you, will you be honest enough to admit it here?
 

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“Well, I’ve FINALLY ordered a DNA test for Ginger... are you ready to apologise for being so arrogant, dismissive, and nasty when it confirms Ginger is indeed a dutch shepherd?!?”

No one was rude or nasty to you. They simply didn’t tell you what you wanted to hear.
 

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And we are STILL talking about this! I ordered a DNA test for Ginger to confirm what Ive known for years... she is a Dutch Shepherd.... the Dutch Shepherd Forum and all of you guys have set a very low bar... if she has one percent Dutch Shepherd in her then you’re all completely wrong...
Not quite. From what I've read, no one said she had NO dutch shepherd in her. They said she wasn't a dutch shepherd. That's two different things.

My Bat-dog had less than 10% german shorthair, but she was in no way a german shorthair. My Tornado-dog has 10-24% pekinese but is in no way a pekinese.

1% is so minimal as to be non-existent.
 
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Discussion Starter · #190 ·
What test did you pick? Either way, it will be cool to see the results!
i don’t remember the company offhand, I’ll look... It’s the one Banfield Clinic associated with Petsmart uses... i was wanting to use embark... I might get one through them anyway to see if their results are identical... I’d be curious if they would be....
 

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Discussion Starter · #191 ·
Not quite. From what I've read, no one said she had NO dutch shepherd in her. They said she wasn't a dutch shepherd. That's two different things.

My Bat-dog had less than 10% german shorthair, but she was in no way a german shorthair. My Tornado-dog has 10-24% pekinese but is in no way a pekinese.

1% is so minimal as to be non-existent.
The “experts” at the dutch shepherd forum insisted “by “no stretch of the imagination” was it possible Ginger could have “a single drop of dutch shepherd blood in her”.... i never claimed she was a purebred....
 

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Looks like Banfield uses Wisdom Panel, if Google is to be believed, which is one of the more decent ones. Do let us know when you get the results!
 

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The “experts” at the dutch shepherd forum insisted “by “no stretch of the imagination” was it possible Ginger could have “a single drop of dutch shepherd blood in her”.... i never claimed she was a purebred....
What was written on another forum has no bearing on the folks on this forum. No one on this forum said it was absolutely impossible for her to have any dutch shepherd in her. Most have said it is highly unlikely because dutch shepherds are still rare enough In the US. That means the chance that someone with a dutch shepherd let it get loose and breed with a random dog is extremely unlikely.

Back in the 70s, a woman my mom did rescue with was notorious for labeling their rescues as rare breeds. She found that people were far more willing to adopt a rare "Siberian Maltese" than a pom-maltese mix. People fell for it. I swear she was solely responsible for the cockapoos, goldendoodles, etc, that are so prevalent today. Everyone likes to think their dog is unusual - even if it's made up.

When I got my Dog at 5 months, my dad saw her and said "she looks like a pharoah hound". She did. But that didn't change the fact that she was a shepherd/lab mix. She had no pharoah hound in her. And the odds that a rescue mix would have pharoah hound in them was... well, I was more likely to win the lottery.
 

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Discussion Starter · #194 ·
What was written on another forum has no bearing on the folks on this forum. No one on this forum said it was absolutely impossible for her to have any dutch shepherd in her. Most have said it is highly unlikely because dutch shepherds are still rare enough In the US. That means the chance that someone with a dutch shepherd let it get loose and breed with a random dog is extremely unlikely.

Back in the 70s, a woman my mom did rescue with was notorious for labeling their rescues as rare breeds. She found that people were far more willing to adopt a rare "Siberian Maltese" than a pom-maltese mix. People fell for it. I swear she was solely responsible for the cockapoos, goldendoodles, etc, that are so prevalent today. Everyone likes to think their dog is unusual - even if it's made up.

When I got my Dog at 5 months, my dad saw her and said "she looks like a pharoah hound". She did. But that didn't change the fact that she was a shepherd/lab mix. She had no pharoah hound in her. And the odds that a rescue mix would have pharoah hound in them was... well, I was more likely to win the lottery.
the oroblem is the DSF attitude...members also on that forum, followed me in here! I’n a curiosity driven person who wanted to be a responsible pet owner; I simply wanted to kniw THE TRUTH... Ginger might be a mastiff or pitt bull mix... but if she is, it’s not for any reason I was given in either forum..opinions based on the fact Ginger has a pitt bull coat or mastiff personality arent usefull because those things are simply not true! to be better aware if any health or personality issues she might have i was hungry for information; i received no information; just the opinion ginger WASN'T a dutch shepherd abd go away...ginger is too big and bulky to be a ditch shepherd by the standard of many... YET she just isn't mastiff like at all...in the flesh she is a brindled shephered, and a heaping helping of both... she expresses no other breed traits... she just seems like an excessively massive dutch shepherd....if the test comes back saying something else i won’t be disappointed...i would be fascinated what non dutchy mix could end up like her...
 

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It sounds like you are condemning others for exactly what you yourself are doing. They say she is not a dutch shepherd because she has a mastiff personality. They are saying she's pit or mastiff because she has a brindled coat. You are saying she is a dutch shepherd because she has a shepherd personality and a brindled coat.

The truth with a mix breed is rarely that simple. Here is my Moose-dog. First as an 8 week old puppy (yes, the cutest puppy ever):
Dog Carnivore Whiskers Companion dog Dog breed


Here he is as an adult (his sister Bat-dog is the smaller one):
Plant Dog Sky Carnivore Working animal


Everyone who met him said shepherd/dobie. His personality fit, his coat fit, his coloring fit, his shape fit.

In truth, the poodle gave him the tall narrow "dobie" appearance. The shepherd gave him the "dobie" coloring. The newfie? Well that gave him the white stripe down his chest and the big baby personality. His intelligence and eager to please attitude ould come from either the shepherd or the poodle or both.

Now he is fairly simple because he only has three breeds in his mix. The shepherd consists of more than 75% of that.

Now look at Bat-dog. She has 7 breeds in her mix. It's much more difficult to pinpoint a specific breed. Shepherd mix? Good guess because shepherds and labs are the top two breeds for mixes. Beyond that? Everyone saw something different in her. Most people thought that she and Moose-dog were littermates or father/daughter. No relation.

I'm glad you are doing the dna. It's the best way to get a breed makeup on a mix breed. Asking people to guess is just that - a guess. And is based on the person's knowledge and familiarity with various breeds. Everyone will base their guess subjectively. Including you. And me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #196 ·
It sounds like you are condemning others for exactly what you yourself are doing. They say she is not a dutch shepherd because she has a mastiff personality. They are saying she's pit or mastiff because she has a brindled coat. You are saying she is a dutch shepherd because she has a shepherd personality and a brindled coat.

The truth with a mix breed is rarely that simple. Here is my Moose-dog. First as an 8 week old puppy (yes, the cutest puppy ever):
View attachment 265449

Here he is as an adult (his sister Bat-dog is the smaller one):
View attachment 265450

Everyone who met him said shepherd/dobie. His personality fit, his coat fit, his coloring fit, his shape fit.

In truth, the poodle gave him the tall narrow "dobie" appearance. The shepherd gave him the "dobie" coloring. The newfie? Well that gave him the white stripe down his chest and the big baby personality. His intelligence and eager to please attitude ould come from either the shepherd or the poodle or both.

Now he is fairly simple because he only has three breeds in his mix. The shepherd consists of more than 75% of that.

Now look at Bat-dog. She has 7 breeds in her mix. It's much more difficult to pinpoint a specific breed. Shepherd mix? Good guess because shepherds and labs are the top two breeds for mixes. Beyond that? Everyone saw something different in her. Most people thought that she and Moose-dog were littermates or father/daughter. No relation.

I'm glad you are doing the dna. It's the best way to get a breed makeup on a mix breed. Asking people to guess is just that - a guess. And is based on the person's knowledge and familiarity with various breeds. Everyone will base their guess subjectively. Including you. And me.
well yes, any of our guesses are going to be inheirently subjective.... From what I kniw of DNA tests sometimes they seem to follow wahat I would guess closly... ithers seem from left field and I woukd never have guessed...I’m very curious to see what Gingers results are... she is a mystery to me..... when I first got Ginger DNA tests were much newer and I was nore sceptical about their acurracy...I would think canine genetic testing woukd have progressed these yearsas DNA testing in general has orogressed rapidly.... BTW your dogs are all orecious...the one on the bottom to the right teminds me of my first dog.. i was told she was a shepherd/rott mix, her ears tried to stand up for a while when she was a puppy; but they ended like your dogs ears... kindof “flying nun”.. flopped at the ends... In retrospect I think my first dog must have been a dutch shepherd/rott mix... she was all black except her rott markings were brindled... people often thought her legs and face were muddy lol......but i’ll never know for sure what she was...... what I took offense ti before was by the offense others took when I didn’t take their opinion as gospel... because as you said; guesses are subjective! People can say nothing for certain about a dogs pedigree from images! I wasn’t going give an opinion such as Ginger isn’t a Dutch Shepherd because “all dutch shepherds are black” much credit of course because it’s an opinion based on false information! If someone had pics of a dog strongly resembling Ginger who’s genetics were known then i would have found that convincing; but nobody did...... there is a whole subset of a type of dogs, often working dogs that are typically larger and heavier with karger heads; the “x-herder” that people call Dutch Shepherds that the dutch sheoherd forum denies the existence of..... if Ginger is substancially a dutch shepherdI would think her likely this type
 

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Discussion Starter · #197 ·
well yes, any of our guesses are going to be inheirently subjective.... From what I kniw of DNA tests sometimes they seem to follow wahat I would guess closly... ithers seem from left field and I woukd never have guessed...I’m very curious to see what Gingers results are... she is a mystery to me..... when I first got Ginger DNA tests were much newer and I was nore sceptical about their acurracy...I would think canine genetic testing woukd have progressed these yearsas DNA testing in general has orogressed rapidly.... BTW your dogs are all orecious...the one on the bottom to the right teminds me of my first dog.. i was told she was a shepherd/rott mix, her ears tried to stand up for a while when she was a puppy; but they ended like your dogs ears... kindof “flying nun”.. flopped at the ends... In retrospect I think my first dog must have been a dutch shepherd/rott mix... she was all black except her rott markings were brindled... people often thought her legs and face were muddy lol......but i’ll never know for sure what she was...... what I took offense ti before was by the offense others took when I didn’t take their opinion as gospel... because as you said; guesses are subjective! People can say nothing for certain about a dogs pedigree from images! I wasn’t going give an opinion such as Ginger isn’t a Dutch Shepherd because “all dutch shepherds are black” much credit of course because it’s an opinion based on false information! If someone had pics of a dog strongly resembling Ginger who’s genetics were known then i would have found that convincing; but nobody did...... there is a whole subset of a type of dogs, often working dogs that are typically larger and heavier with karger heads; the “x-herder” that people call Dutch Shepherds that the dutch sheoherd forum denies the existence of..... if Ginger is substancially a dutch shepherdI would think her likely this type
 

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Discussion Starter · #198 ·
And again, when the test confirms what we’ve all been telling you, will you be honest enough to admit it here?
Well of course... why wouldnt I? I’m a logical person... I have no fear of ideas... and that includes being wring... If fact I’m always searching for things that I am wrong about or ignorant of....... but I’m not going to just believe I’m wrong just because soneone... or 100 someones even, says so if they have no convincing reasoning or information thats explains the truth... DNA tests are information; not subjective opinions.... ..
What would have been dishonest for me to agree or ptetend to be convinced by people when I simply was not convinced.... I might be completely wrong about everything!! But i simply was not convinced based on any info given... DNA will add convincing info to anyone’s stories that guessed the results beforehand

this dog isstrikingly similat to Ginger...

 

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I would bet money that the dog in the video is an akita mix and not a dutch shepherd. The muzzle shape and size and the face wrinkles are very much akita and not shepherdy at all. And the coat thickness and length is very much akita. The oversized upright ears would suggest some shepherd in there, but it could be GSD or malinois.

From your photo, I would say the same. Although Ginger's coat doesn't appear to be as dense as the one in the video, it looks much denser than a shepherd's. Akita would explain Ginger's white chest too. Possibly shar pei in there.
 
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Discussion Starter · #200 ·
I would bet money that the dog in the video is an akita mix and not a dutch shepherd. The muzzle shape and size and the face wrinkles are very much akita and not shepherdy at all. And the coat thickness and length is very much akita. The oversized upright ears would suggest some shepherd in there, but it could be GSD or malinois.

From your photo, I would say the same. Although Ginger's coat doesn't appear to be as dense as the one in the video, it looks much denser than a shepherd's. Akita would explain Ginger's white chest too. Possibly shar pei in there.
You very well could be right... we’ll find out soon enough; But if that dog and/or Ginger are more substantially Akita rather than DS mixes, it wouldn’t be because of the coats... I can’t say for certain about that dog; but Ginger has a coat identical to short haired dutch shepherds we’ve encountered and quite different from Akitas.....the dutchy coat exceedingly glossy/slick/shiny/smooth suspended by a shallow but dense layer of white feathery undercoat... the coarse but supple top coat laying very smoothly as to sometimes look like a very short single coat from any distance unless she gets excited then her coat can stand up fluffy... Akitas coats are finer and much poofier...not nearly as glossy and reflective as a short haired dutchy, especially the poofy curling tails...
 
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