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Worth the trade off for no pulling?


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Discussion Starter #1
Since the Millan thread is going way too long, I thought I would start a new one not based on Millan but about what happened to one dog and a newsreporter too stupid to know better.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/01/cesar-millan-sa/comments/page/1/

According to the article the problem was pulling and maybe some barking at the door

Oscar's affliction was constantly pulling on the leash

He has stopped his wee-hour charges down the hall barking, howling and shocking me out of sleep.


So after applying Millan's techniques the dog no longer pulls but something else happened as well. She killed her dog's "spirit"

When I go to bed, he goes to bed. He's a whole new dog.

Sort of a robot dog.

My Oscar used to dance when I returned from work. Doesn't anymore. My Oscar used to scamper into the kitchen, take a bite of food, run back out to the living room to make sure everything was cool and jog back for another couple of chunks. Not doing that. My Oscar used to run down the hall ahead of me looking over his shoulder with a big old grin. Doesn't do that anymore either.


Forgetting about Millan and only focusing on the result and the dog. Would you follow this path knowing the result? Would you trade no pulling for a dog that isn't happy to see you? Doesn't celebrate your arrival? A dog that has lost its playfulness? Would that trade off be worth it to you?
 

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I don't agree with his practices and I don't like his show. He seems to treat dogs like property and to apply ownership. It's ridiculous. No dog is owned, in fact my girl owns me. Dogs are to be loved and shown affection not turned into an obedient robot. Jeeze if Delilah didn't do some of the crazy, husky things she does....well life wouldn't be nearly as fun. In fact, I like when she pulls and gets into prey drive for a minute...it's beautiful watching her natural instincts come in..
 

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Excuse me for being slightly obtuse, perhaps ... but ...



Why can't a person have a dog who doesn't pull, AND, still remains happy to see you ?

The entire notion of trading one at the expense of the other is unneccessary, and just seems ... silly :confused:



IMO, this merely highlights another flaw with the "dog-trainer-in-a-box" ideology.
 

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Excuse me for being slightly obtuse, perhaps ... but ...



Why can't a person have a dog who doesn't pull, AND, still remains happy to see you ?

The entire notion of trading one at the expense of the other is unneccessary, and just seems ... silly :confused:



IMO, this merely highlights another flaw with the "dog-trainer-in-a-box" ideology.
Agreed you can have a dog that does not pull and remains happy.
 

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So.......the dog doesn't act like a crazed idiot when s/he arrives home, and that's a bad thing? A dog can exhibit calm, non-insane behavior and still be happy.

BTW, it generally requires a lot of training and/or systematic abuse to produce a truly robotic dog. Very few people are ambitious/mean enough to put in the time. If the author slackens the regimen, the dog will revert to his former stoopid self. I'd bet a week's pay on it.
 

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I think that the point the OP was trying to make was simply that IF this were the circumstances would you choose to have your dog the previous way, or would you like them to be the way they were after.

Not this "Well you can have the dog be happy and -not- pull" stuff. Obviously I think we all know that. They aren't asking for advice. They're asking simply under those circumstances as a hypothetical question, would having a dog that Ceasar Milan "trained" to not pull who is now essentially a robot worth the loss of everything that the dog formerly was -before- the training.

A Ceasar Milan thread in disguise discussing the methods he uses on dogs and their results. (At least that is what I got from this thread when I read it. I apologize if that's not what the OP meant, hence the 'I think')
 

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Well then maybe if the owner would have followed Cesar's instructions on don't do this at home he/she might not have produced a hypothetical robot. While I have seen some very good/serious working dogs I have never seen a robot type dog hypothetical or in real life. (except the Jetson's TV dog)
 

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Actually i think it is incredibly easy to shut down a dog.

Why people want a quick fix at the expense of the dog i will never understand.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I think that the point the OP was trying to make was simply that IF this were the circumstances would you choose to have your dog the previous way, or would you like them to be the way they were after.

Not this "Well you can have the dog be happy and -not- pull" stuff. Obviously I think we all know that. They aren't asking for advice. They're asking simply under those circumstances as a hypothetical question, would having a dog that Ceasar Milan "trained" to not pull who is now essentially a robot worth the loss of everything that the dog formerly was -before- the training.

A Ceasar Milan thread in disguise discussing the methods he uses on dogs and their results. (At least that is what I got from this thread when I read it. I apologize if that's not what the OP meant, hence the 'I think')
Yes, more interest in the trade offs people are willing to make to extinguish an unwanted behavior than talking about technique. [Hopefully people read the linked article] The author seemed fine with the idea of a robotic dog as long as she wasn't pulled, for her it was worth it. Would it be for other people.
 

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Well then maybe if the owner would have followed Cesar's instructions on don't do this at home he/she might not have produced a hypothetical robot. While I have seen some very good/serious working dogs I have never seen a robot type dog hypothetical or in real life. (except the Jetson's TV dog)
Astro wasn't a robot :O?!
 

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I think that the point the OP was trying to make was simply that IF this were the circumstances would you choose to have your dog the previous way, or would you like them to be the way they were after.

Not this "Well you can have the dog be happy and -not- pull" stuff. Obviously I think we all know that. They aren't asking for advice. They're asking simply under those circumstances as a hypothetical question, would having a dog that Ceasar Milan "trained" to not pull who is now essentially a robot worth the loss of everything that the dog formerly was -before- the training.
It all depends on the individual owner's interpretation of what the dog has become. And is that interpretation worth the ink (digital or analog) used to communicate it to us? Most dogs who run around picking things up and dropping them, chase their tails, whine, wiggle, and ricochet off walls are dogs who don't know what to do next. The calm tail-wagger who waits for you to put your packages down, is more likely a dog who knows what comes next (i.e., the happier dog).

It seems more likely (to me) that the author has lost something--the emotional thrill of seeing the dog lose his [email protected]#$%^& mind at his return home at the end of the day. It's not exactly uncommon for people to put their own emotional needs before their dogs' genuine happiness. D'ya ever see the satisfied look some people exhibit when the dog sits on her lap and lashes out at everyone else in the family? It's weird, but not the least bit uncommon. How much credence do we give that owner's lament that about the dog not being allowed to be a dog? I give it zero.

It also depends on your definition of "robotic". Many people think well trained, well behaved dogs are "robot dogs". I see that interpretation, most often, as a rationalization for the owner's inability or unwillingness to properly control their animals. I define "robotic" as a dog who is shut down (i.e., afraid to move for fear of punishment which is never predictable or consistent). A dog *properly* trained to an extremely high standard of obedience knows he can initiate play with "the boss". He still has a personality even if he doesn't act like a jerk all the time.
 

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It all depends on the individual owner's interpretation of what the dog has become. And is that interpretation worth the ink (digital or analog) used to communicate it to us? Most dogs who run around picking things up and dropping them, chase their tails, whine, wiggle, and ricochet off walls are dogs who don't know what to do next. The calm tail-wagger who waits for you to put your packages down, is more likely a dog who knows what comes next (i.e., the happier dog).

It seems more likely (to me) that the author has lost something--the emotional thrill of seeing the dog lose his [email protected]#$%^& mind at his return home at the end of the day. It's not exactly uncommon for people to put their own emotional needs before their dogs' genuine happiness. D'ya ever see the satisfied look some people exhibit when the dog sits on her lap and lashes out at everyone else in the family? It's weird, but not the least bit uncommon. How much credence do we give that owner's lament that about the dog not being allowed to be a dog? I give it zero.

It also depends on your definition of "robotic". Many people think well trained, well behaved dogs are "robot dogs". I see that interpretation, most often, as a rationalization for the owner's inability or unwillingness to properly control their animals. I define "robotic" as a dog who is shut down (i.e., afraid to move for fear of punishment which is never predictable or consistent). A dog *properly* trained to an extremely high standard of obedience knows he can initiate play with "the boss". He still has a personality even if he doesn't act like a jerk all the time.
Oh my, what he said.
 

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It all depends on the individual owner's interpretation of what the dog has become. And is that interpretation worth the ink (digital or analog) used to communicate it to us? Most dogs who run around picking things up and dropping them, chase their tails, whine, wiggle, and ricochet off walls are dogs who don't know what to do next. The calm tail-wagger who waits for you to put your packages down, is more likely a dog who knows what comes next (i.e., the happier dog).

It seems more likely (to me) that the author has lost something--the emotional thrill of seeing the dog lose his [email protected]#$%^& mind at his return home at the end of the day. It's not exactly uncommon for people to put their own emotional needs before their dogs' genuine happiness. D'ya ever see the satisfied look some people exhibit when the dog sits on her lap and lashes out at everyone else in the family? It's weird, but not the least bit uncommon. How much credence do we give that owner's lament that about the dog not being allowed to be a dog? I give it zero.

It also depends on your definition of "robotic". Many people think well trained, well behaved dogs are "robot dogs". I see that interpretation, most often, as a rationalization for the owner's inability or unwillingness to properly control their animals. I define "robotic" as a dog who is shut down (i.e., afraid to move for fear of punishment which is never predictable or consistent). A dog *properly* trained to an extremely high standard of obedience knows he can initiate play with "the boss". He still has a personality even if he doesn't act like a jerk all the time.
I like this...

And that said,
I don't know the situation fully, the article was useless IMO, and I don't want to make a blind statement without knowing how the dog reacted before and after the training from someone other than the owner (because we owners know that things can get skewed when we talk about our dogs. :D )
 

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And that said,
I don't know the situation fully, the article was useless IMO, and I don't want to make a blind statement without knowing how the dog reacted before and after the training from someone other than the owner (because we owners know that things can get skewed when we talk about our dogs. :D )
And then there's this. We don't know anything about the author or his dog--before or after. We don't know how well or badly he adhered to the prescribed training methods. We only know what he said, but we can't know how high a value we should place on his opinion about his dog's behavior.
 

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"[email protected]#$%^& mind" - I think you made wvasko blush .... BTW, I remember that Tom&Jerry did have a robot dog in one cartoon. And, I think the Jetsons may have had a Robot dog in one episode, causing Astro to run away. I'm positive that's what he meant :)

"satisfied look some people exhibit when the dog sits on her lap and lashes out at everyone else" ==> Armpit Piranha!!

I agree with this:
"I define "robotic" as a dog who is shut down (i.e., afraid to move for fear of punishment - excessive +P - which is never predictable or consistent). A dog *properly* trained to a [..] high standard of obedience knows he can initiate play with "the boss". He still has a personality."
 

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I have to agree with the lovely post from Marsh Muppet.

The fact that someone things you have to trade the happy dog for the obedient dog just goes to show how little folks really understand dogs. It's peculiar to me. I've had very highly trained dogs & the more intelligent they are & the more they're worked with the better their personality comes out. I've shared my life with some major serious dogs but they certainly were not robots. My dogs are expected to think. I set up puzzles in training & I expect them to use their heads to get out of it & still do their jobs. These are also the same dogs who play tricks on me, who make me laugh the most & who are real characters. One that pops into my mind is a dog I trained who has a deadly serious job but he plays a dog joke on his handler. He takes the high ground & will jump out on his handler. Now he doesn't jump on the man but it's always a near miss. Then the dog will run with his butt tucked under him & running like a maniac. When the show's over, the dog comes & sits down in front of the man & it's time to get serious. My male Dobe would greet me with his teeth showing, licking & chomping & drumming his front feet. People were terrified when I'd squat down & hold my arms out. He never bowled me over. My dog who would deploy up onto roof tops was the same goofy clown who would stick her head between her front legs & would roll & then lay on her back, legs splayed out with a goofy grin on her face & open one eye to see if I was laughing yet. These were all dogs who many thought must not have much of a life, they were robots, they were (blah, blah, blah). It's not an either or. If it's an either or, in someone's opinion they need to dump what they think they know & get some higher learning concerning dogs.

I have a new pup laying at my feet who won't ever know what it's like to be a robot but she'll be well behaved, well mannered & she'll have a training roster longer than my leg of things she will know how to do. And she'll be a lot of fun. Training doesn't break the spirit it builds communication between human & canine... it makes it possible for the dog to live in humansville happily.
 

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Yes, more interest in the trade offs people are willing to make to extinguish an unwanted behavior than talking about technique. [Hopefully people read the linked article] The author seemed fine with the idea of a robotic dog as long as she wasn't pulled, for her it was worth it. Would it be for other people.
Except effective training requires no trade offs.

So I guess, no, I wouldn't make any trades because if I know what I'm doing to get whatever behavior, I will get it USING the dog the way he is, not in spite of it. I will know how to HARNESS a dog's personality, way of thinking/learning, and energy, not suppress it or force the dog to change.

Plus, his/her [the writer's] definition of a "robot dog" doesn't make sense - at least from the quotes in the opening post.

The dog doesn't running around barking late at night/early in the morning and doesn't run back and forth between eating and the living room, and sleeps when he/she does.

And that's a "robot dog"?

It also assumes the dog has lost playfulness. How do we know the dog won't play? Just because he doesn't run around the house anymore? That's not play. That's excess energy needing an outlet (sometimes called "zoomies"). Play is in control, even between dogs. It's active, energized, sometimes rough/physical, but it's still controlled, purposeful action. Not just charging around - unless it's a chase game. (Play is often "practice" for instinctive/needed behaviors like chasing, pouncing, fighting, hunting, reproduction, etc)

The dog isn't happy to see his person because he doesn't dance? Maybe he wags his tail and sniffs to see where his person has been - i.e. true greeting behavior. He could still be panting happily, even dog laughing (the "hah hah hah hah" sound dogs can purposefully make to express excitement/happiness) while doing this. That would indicate a happy dog to me. Same for "bouncy" steps or excited walking or even a play bow.

So, for me, there's not enough information to know that the path alluded to has actually resulted in a "robot dog".
 
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