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Is hitting ok?

  • NEVER!!! Its cruel!

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • Only when they do something really bad.

    Votes: 9 18.4%
  • I hit my dogs all the time.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • No, it doesnt teach anything to the animal.

    Votes: 34 69.4%
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OP - Why would you want to smack a dog if the possibility for better communication with your dog is readily available to you? Your goal is to build trust and encourage better behaviors; smacking doesn't do that. It’s kind of like a modern day doctor blood-letting to treat an ear infection, instead of administering proper medication.

If your boss smacked you or called you a name every time you made a mistake, you might eventually learn not to make that mistake, but you'd harbor some resentment and wouldn't be an effective worker. If your boss took the time to patiently show you what he/she did want, you'd have a better relationship and you'd be a more productive worker and lean towards being a happier, more loyal employee.

Why not motivate the dog to perform an alternate behavior instead?
 

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Good on you OP. At least you've got the courage to voice a politically incorrect opinion on this forum.
We all hit each other at home. !!
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
ok thanks everyone! U have all cleared up what my parents taught me and what the internet was very split on. I figured i would ask a forum of dog owners to see what you think since you are people that arent my parents or internet. Now i know that what i was told about wolves is wrong and that the way ive trained dogs forever isnt a good way. So now i know with my own dog that doesnt live with my parents anymore that i can try these other techniques instead. Im not disappointed at all with my results on my question and poll. I dont ask questions if i dont want the answer. I thank you all for your excellent fact-backed experiences and opinions. :)
 

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I don't smack Molly because she is sensitive and her feelings are easily bruised.

I don't smack Esther because she could kill me.

Seriously, even raising my voice around any dog I've ever had was so devastating and demoralizing for both the dog and for me that I look for reasonable alternatives - like just poking myself in the eye with a sharp stick.
 

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I will admit to having this believe when I raised Izze & raised her this way, for her IMO it was the way she rolled ... But she was the only dog I have come across that almost "needed" to know you were "really" serious in making her behave & til the day she died she tested the rules ... It was just who she was.

Josefina & busy on the other hand are soft as feathers, just looking at them too harshly be gets calming signals. I don't do this anymore but there are times when I will admit to getting frustrated & "wanting" to. But when I reach day point I take a break & spend some time "swatting" my pillow.
 

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I find it very frustrating in my age group, because a lot of us grew up with dogs as children, raised by our parents, and done the wrong way.

So now as an adult, I have really made efforts to do positive training/reinforcement with my dog. But I get so much flack from people around me. For instance, I do the whole 'take the dog out every half hour, then every 45 mins, then once/hr' thing for potty training and they all think I'm insane. They said to just "put it in the backyard and it will go eventually." They also think that when I don't flip out over the dog having accidents, I'm sending a message that it is okay for the dog to do this. People still advocate the whole shoving the dog's face in accidents and yelling. They also think I'm wrong for not smacking the dog if it pulls on my pant leg. When I talk about giving my dog opportunities to "do good" vs. trying to catch him being naughty and punishing, they think I spoil my dog.

People think I'm really hokey when I talk about all these other methods, and I think people are very stuck on methods that were used 20+ years ago, because even those owners had relatively happy, decently adjusted dogs.
 

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ok thanks everyone! U have all cleared up what my parents taught me and what the internet was very split on. I figured i would ask a forum of dog owners to see what you think since you are people that arent my parents or internet. Now i know that what i was told about wolves is wrong and that the way ive trained dogs forever isnt a good way. So now i know with my own dog that doesnt live with my parents anymore that i can try these other techniques instead. Im not disappointed at all with my results on my question and poll. I dont ask questions if i dont want the answer. I thank you all for your excellent fact-backed experiences and opinions. :)
So happy to hear someone willing to inform themselves. I also started out not too sure which training techniques to use, luckily I already a bit knowledge on clickers and different types of reinforcements from working with horses before I got my dog. This board is a great source of information if you go through all the stickys.

Good on you! :rockon: Keep reading and informing yourself and your dog will start to make a lot more sense to you. You will have a dog that loves to work with you instead of one that "obeys" because he's scared of what might happen (which could become dangerous when they don't understand what you want).
 

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ive never seen a dog that was good 100% of its life and never in its life ruined anything or bit something without being punished and told not to at some point.
That doesn't make the dog "bad". It makes the behavior unwanted.

Big difference.

As far as slapping a dog for punishment - I don't believe its ever necessary. It might be easiest for the human, and, yes, a dog will learn to avoid what causes him or her pain (of course, if it's a light slap, what's pain got to do with it?), but as the only possible way to communicate to a dog that a behavior is unwanted? No, I don't believe that.

I also believe the 'alpha' dog would only do that if all other signals were unheeded. If body blocking or other body language didn't work, and vocalization didn't work, and then threatening (like air snapping) didn't work, then maybe ripping the other dog's shoulder might be the next step - but considering dogs typically AVOID wanting to resort to such methods - I believe it's a last resort.

As a species with a bigger brain and control of the dog's motivators, I believe we can work towards manipulation over violence.
 

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One person voted that they "hit their dogs all the time". Sad.

I guess they're too cowardly to add any text comments, no surprise.
 

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Nope the all positive all the time on this forum just drives me up the wall so I don't get involved. The attitude that if you use any sort of adhesive you are somehow not training is irritating as hell frankly. Yup I sometimes smack my dogs, I also own an ecollar and a prong collar I also use lots a shaping and rewarding. My dogs are not hand shy or scared of me any way and we have a rock solid relationship. The methods I use is "whatever works" . For misty and gem that's freeshaping, for gyp luring plus adversives, Baby adversives and freeshaping, happy- watch anouther dog first and reward with toys. Rusty, primarily punishment alpha stuff with some rewards mixed in. And BTW I am not stuck in old ways. I was raised on all positive training mindset I changed because I found that all positive does NOT always work..does it "usually" work? Yes but always is the overstatement of the year.
 

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Nope the all positive all the time on this forum just drives me up the wall so I don't get involved. The attitude that if you use any sort of adhesive you are somehow not training is irritating as hell frankly. Yup I sometimes smack my dogs, I also own an ecollar and a prong collar I also use lots a shaping and rewarding. My dogs are not hand shy or scared of me any way and we have a rock solid relationship. The methods I use is "whatever works" . For misty and gem that's freeshaping, for gyp luring plus adversives, Baby adversives and freeshaping, happy- watch anouther dog first and reward with toys. Rusty, primarily punishment alpha stuff with some rewards mixed in. And BTW I am not stuck in old ways. I was raised on all positive training mindset I changed because I found that all positive does NOT always work..does it "usually" work? Yes but always is the overstatement of the year.
First of all, "all positive reinforcement" is difficult to actually do in practice. Let alone "all positive all the time". I have not seen anyone say that you should use +R 100% of the time.

If you withhold a reward, that's negative punishment. So already, you're not "all positive reinforcement". NILIF is non-aversive, but not "all positive". Also, "all positive" from a strict behaviorist standpoint could mean +R and +P combined, which makes the "all positive" label useless because it's meaning doesn't have a clear foundation or definition (is it all positive reinforcement, positive punishment, or all the positive side of the quadrants?).

If you know how to use negative reinforcement and positive punishment successfully and you obviously can read when to and not to use it based on your dogs (judging from your post), so that's also a big plus. I see you also use observational learning. You probably also use environmental cues.

Does anything ever "always" work? Probably not, though I'd argue that dogs are going to repeat behaviors that bring about the results they want (technically, it's +R with the cue being whatever situation that prompted the behavior). The concept of self-rewarding behaviors exists because the result of the behavior is a desired result for the dog, so the dog is going to repeat that behavior in that situation again.

I'd say +R does always work from the dog's perspective (I'm going to do things again that get me the stuff I want). Do humans always use it successfully? No. Are dogs going to be positively reinforced only by things we humans want them to do? No.
 

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One person voted that they "hit their dogs all the time". Sad.

I guess they're too cowardly to add any text comments, no surprise.
This is the sort of statement that will get this thread shut down and members sent to Banned Camp.

The moderators have no hesitation to use "adversives" when needed here.
 

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Nope the all positive all the time on this forum just drives me up the wall so I don't get involved.
Having watched dog training of others for 50 years and the ignorance of some aversives used and some dogs hurt severely, (some killed) So I have no problem (no wall driving here)

What I like is that the mix of positive stuff and amateurs doesn't hurt dogs. Of course there is always the bolting dog that could get hurt by a car etc that might have been stopped with the proper aversive. But that dog could also have been stopped with lead control.

As a trainer I do not have to use any of it, or I can if needed use as much as I want. There are nuggets of positive learning here. Just sayin'..
 

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Beyond whatever ethical considerations we may harbor, the use of one's hand (and, of course, your close proximity is inherent) to deliver an aversive has some very worrisome side effects that can make other interactions with your dog difficult.
I have no qualms with the carefully considered delivery of a punishment protocol.

My current dog is what I would call a "nervy" dog. Somewhat quick-to-worry and her reactions are fast and sharp. This might be the worst candidate for a personal, hand delivered slap punishment. I am certain that if I popped her just once, she would be immediately hand shy and it would take some counter-conditioning to erase that side effect. I never approach my dog unless I'm providing "happy things" (toy, petting, treat). The last thing I want is a dog that dodges my hand or runs from me. That's a major hassle. (and this dog is about as pre-wired a "runner" as they come)

Surely, other dogs can tolerate all manner of (apparent) aversives without any notable side effects. Go figure.
 

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I said "my" methode is whatever works, I am not an amatur, I have been training and competing since I was young and my mom has been training and competing since she was 14. I could not care less what everyone else does, but blanket statements like using adversives "isnt training" and a smack/ecollar/prong is cruelty, THAT is what drives me nuts on this forum..then I go over the the BC forum and someone asks how to get a dog to quite doing something when redirecting etc.. isnt working and there is 3 pages of responses of "give him a swat" lol all the foums I am on propote postive training, but not one of then is like this forum that pretty much demonizes anything that isnt 100% postive. THAT is why I generally stay out of training threads on this forum. its not the promotion of positive, is the demonizing of everything else.
 

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This forum seems to get a lot of pop-ons asking things like "My dog peed in the house, I rubbed her nose in it but she STILL won't learn". That is not a carefully considered and applied aversive (which I don't have any problem with). Advice should be tailored for the person hearing it and those people, although doing what they know and have learned SHOULD be told that those kind of tactics are counterproductive. I also find sometimes people here get a little dogmatic about their 'system' or 'philosophy' of choice but its generally directed at someone who is using aversives without much thought or experience. Its pretty damn rare for wvasko to get told off for example...
 

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oh I am not talking about threads like that,. I totally agree, I recall one thread about someone who twice hit their dog over the head with a kleenex box and the dog bit them, those types of threads, aboslutly, when I hear stuff like that IRL I jump on it lol however I dont read a lot of those threads, I mostly read the generalized "how do you use do this" "would you ever do this" type threads(like this one lol) which always results in full demonizing of all things negitive, and snid remarks of "TRAIN them" as if using adversives is somehow not training.
 

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Its pretty damn rare for wvasko to get told off for example...
# 1, I'm a senior and they are all just being kind to me.

# 2, Now I've said this before, while being an self-admitted aversive user, (yes I use corrections when necessary) I just don't give aversive advice to be used on dogs I have not read to strangers I don't know. That would be damn stupid.
 

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I mostly read the generalized "how do you use do this" "would you ever do this" type threads(like this one lol) which always results in full demonizing of all things negitive, and snid remarks of "TRAIN them" as if using adversives is somehow not training.
Who demonizes negative punishment? I'd like to see the argument against it.

I haven't seen that like ever, nor have I seen someone telling a user of -P that they aren't training, directly or through the back door.

-R, yeah, I've seen that demonized, and it goes too far (as do the silly crap about +R being "bribery" or "dog will only work for food" or whatever nonsense), but never -P.
 

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oh I am not talking about threads like that,. I totally agree, I recall one thread about someone who twice hit their dog over the head with a kleenex box and the dog bit them, those types of threads, aboslutly, when I hear stuff like that IRL I jump on it lol however I dont read a lot of those threads, I mostly read the generalized "how do you use do this" "would you ever do this" type threads(like this one lol) which always results in full demonizing of all things negitive, and snid remarks of "TRAIN them" as if using adversives is somehow not training.
I don't think I demonized anyone. The question was "views on light slap as punishment". My view is that I don't see value in slapping or hitting and I don't think it works as well as other methods.
 
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