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Discussion Starter #1
I asked my vet about supplementing Butters' raw diet with fish oil and she said she should only be having 150 mg a day, and that a raw diet will definitely need a multivitamin to supplement, andthat Vitamin A and D that's often found in fish oil can be harmful to dogs...

What do you all think? I'm a bit shaken, because,

1. They are saying that dog food (kibble) is higher in nutritional value than a raw diet, and that a multivitamin is needed. When I said to the vet tech that I disagreed and that my dog is doing far better on a raw diet than she ever did on kibble, she was a bit rude in her response to me, and just shut me down.
2. They are saying that giving more than 150 mg a day is very dangerous for Butters, and not to supplement it with Vitamin E
3. Do you think this vet is making the right calls?

This is also the vet that was supposed to do a physical check up before vaccinations but failed to check the eyes, mouth, and joints, which makes me wonder....
 

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I'm sure vets see a lot of people giving their pets unbalanced diets. I don't blame them for being against raw/homemade diets, but of course if you're doing it right you don't need supplements. If the multivitamin has vitamin A and you feed liver, you run the risk of overdosing.

Fish body oil (regular "fish oil") doesn't have a lot of vitamins A and D. Cod liver oil does. Maybe she was confused?

Unless a vet takes a special interest in nutrition, it's just not their specialty. As long as you're confident in what you're feeding, don't worry about. If you really want to reassure yourself, contact a veterinary nutritionist.
 

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Vets receive very little nutritional training and what they do receive is sponsored by kibble companies. If you've done your research and are feeding a balanced raw diet, I wouldn't worry about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks Willowy and Amaryllis. I'm going to try to ask around and see if I can get a good vet referral for someone who's more holistic, and progressive in their approach. If anyone knows of such a vet in Toronto, ON Canada, please let me know!
 

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My vet told me to give human grade fish oil and vitamin E. He also told me to give mineral oil for constipation and if that did not work use vaseline. He has never steered me wrong IMHO in 6 years. :) Now I am trusting his expertise to dissolve bladder stones in Leeo. If this works ... he will be a Saint in my eyes! Lol! :)

My 60 pound dog gets 1000 mg fish oil per day and also vitamin E three times a week. The vitamin E I use is free of: color, sweetener, sugar, starch, milk, lactose, gluten, wheat, yeast,fish, and sodium free also. I see no vitamin D listed in either the fish oil or vitamin E. :/
 

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I see no vitamin D listed in either the fish oil or vitamin E. :/
Because fish oil doesn't contain it. You'd have to add D and E. He must have been thinking of cod liver oil. And yes, D in particular stores in the fat and unlike Vitamin C (which dogs produce their own, you don't need to supplement) any excess will stay in the body and cause problems. But only if you're getting too much of it, which you won't get from fish oil.

I really hope that was just a misunderstanding, otherwise that vet needs to brush up on some very basic science.
 

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Because fish oil doesn't contain it. You'd have to add D and E. He must have been thinking of cod liver oil. And yes, D in particular stores in the fat and unlike Vitamin C (which dogs produce their own, you don't need to supplement) any excess will stay in the body and cause problems. But only if you're getting too much of it, which you won't get from fish oil.

I really hope that was just a misunderstanding, otherwise that vet needs to brush up on some very basic science.
I told the vet tech that it was fish body oil from mackerel, sardines, and anchovies and she scoffed at me, and said that often they have Vitamin D and A without listing it in the ingredients list.......the ingredient list literally is just fish body oil with the three listed above......The manufacturer is also Nature's Bounty, which supposed to be an excellent one.

I just feel so angry because they're going around clearly uneducated about nutrition , and telling people what they're convinced is true, without truly looking into it. That really makes me angry.
 

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Well, it wouldn't be in the ingredient list since it isn't added. . .cod liver oil is naturally high in vitamin D. But it would be in the nutrition data thingy.
 

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There are vets who are nutritional specialist. Some vets even go to nutritional conferences held by scientist and vets. These are not sponsored by dog foods. Just a one or two day event listening to a specialist findings on thier studies. Even these specialist agree that a multi-vitamin is needed to balance out the diet. Not all vets are against a raw diet, but if you do feed raw the vets want you to do it with balance.

Vitamins ADEK are fat soluble vitamins. Too much of these can cause problems. Especially in the liver. This is where the body breaks down these vitamins for the body to use.
Here is a list of foods from http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-QuickFacts/ that have vitamin D naturally;
Very few foods naturally have vitamin D. Fortified foods provide most of the vitamin D in American diets.
•Fatty fish such as salmon, tuna, and mackerel are among the best sources.
•Beef liver, cheese, and egg yolks provide small amounts.
•Mushrooms provide some vitamin D. In some mushrooms that are newly available in stores, the vitamin D content is being boosted by exposing these mushrooms to ultraviolet light.
So we do not know her weight but the tech was given you a safe limit amount that would not cause adverse side effects

And yes vets do see people all the time claiming to feed raw and not doing it right. Plus the data on higher Salmonella and E. coli being present on dogs who are fed a strictly raw diet are high in the vet world. They also see joint problems because the phosphorus/calcium ratio is off. Pancreatitis is another one. The fat content on some raw diets might be too much for certain dogs.


as far as the kibble being better. Most packaged kibble in the US has to meet AAFCO nutritional standards for feeding Anybody can create a website and post a raw diet that they fed to their dog. Or even what you should feed to your dog always be careful what you read on the web
 

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I told the vet tech that it was fish body oil from mackerel, sardines, and anchovies and she scoffed at me, and said that often they have Vitamin D and A without listing it in the ingredients list.......the ingredient list literally is just fish body oil with the three listed above......The manufacturer is also Nature's Bounty, which supposed to be an excellent one.

I just feel so angry because they're going around clearly uneducated about nutrition , and telling people what they're convinced is true, without truly looking into it. That really makes me angry.
I think you need to give them a break. A human physician is not educated heavily in nutrition besides telling you not to eat cheeseburgers. If you go to a specialist - say a cardiologist that doctor will be able to describe a cardiac diet but probably couldn't tell you exact details of a renal diet.
Vets are medical just like human doctors in that they are not dietitians. Even doctors in a human ICU where expert physicians are - the doctor writes an order for the dietitian to see the patient and make diet decisions because the dietitian went to school for it and the doctor got a crash course years ago.
As for the tech - not a doctor and not a canine nutritionist. She has to go by her training - which probably didn't include raw feeding.
You are right to find a holistic vet as they will be just that.
You can't go to a "medical" vet (vs. holistic) and expect holistic treatment or the vet to specialize or have extensive knowledge of it.

As for the exam - my last vet didn't examine my animals prior to vaccine either. If I had scheduled it then I would expect it but I don't believe it is required to give vaccines.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I think you need to give them a break. A human physician is not educated heavily in nutrition besides telling you not to eat cheeseburgers. If you go to a specialist - say a cardiologist that doctor will be able to describe a cardiac diet but probably couldn't tell you exact details of a renal diet.
Vets are medical just like human doctors in that they are not dietitians. Even doctors in a human ICU where expert physicians are - the doctor writes an order for the dietitian to see the patient and make diet decisions because the dietitian went to school for it and the doctor got a crash course years ago.
As for the tech - not a doctor and not a canine nutritionist. She has to go by her training - which probably didn't include raw feeding.
You are right to find a holistic vet as they will be just that.
You can't go to a "medical" vet (vs. holistic) and expect holistic treatment or the vet to specialize or have extensive knowledge of it.

As for the exam - my last vet didn't examine my animals prior to vaccine either. If I had scheduled it then I would expect it but I don't believe it is required to give vaccines.[/QUOT
 

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An excess of vitamin E can interfere with your pup's vitamin k metabolism. Vitamin K is used when dogs ingest rat poison to help with clotting problems associated with ingesting the poison. This is what that tech was concerned about.. too much vit E could induce a bleedig problem with your dog,

I do agree if you are going to be feeding raw to your pet to find a holistic vet. This way a more balanced diet can be reccomended for you to feed your dog

Did you get charged for an exam?
 
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