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Discussion Starter #1
Hey I don't pop by often but I hope some people remember the issues I was having with my younger dog and her anxiety. She's come to a point where the vets half a province away have shrugged and said "I dunno" and "good luck"

We're at the point that she's outright attacking solid wooden doors and having complete meltdowns if the human has to go poop in the other room without her.

She was recently weened off her meds with no behavior change which proved that they done nothing and is now on vet prescription CBT oil. (Bacon flavored)

She's at the point in time where we should be seeing something...but nope...

She's beyond where training can help her because there is no threshold line. She's almost always over it.

Even 3 vet behaviourist have no clue where to go from here.

I just need ideas maybe something we haven't thought of yet.
This is ongoing since she was a few weeks old, we're running out of spoons.

We need ideas

Help?

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"She's beyond where training can help her because there is no threshold line. She's almost always over it."

Sorry to hear you are still struggling with Vitae :( What do you mean by this? I know you had some challenges between Vitae and Manna, but it sounded like outside of her moments Vitae was able to 'be a dog' in the house. Maybe I missed a post somewhere. And, what did the different vet behaviorists suggest for you to do? Did vets rule out something neurological (bloodwork, MRI, etc?)?
 

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I know this is kind of a frustrating question, but have you tried multiple psychiatric medications, or just one? They're tricky things because we don't actually know how or why they work, and (in humans at least) the same medication can produce vastly different results in two different people with the same symptoms/diagnosis. If you've only tried one medication, it might be worth trying a different one.
 

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I second everything that’s already been said. Vets can be pricey, but it really would be worth it to try every vet you can possibly get to in your area. I’m actually slightly disgusted to hear your veterinarian would say your dog is beyond help. You may also find it worthwhile to visit/consult with someone who studies canine psychology. It’s hard for us to provide help as well without the history of the dog, the conditions she’s living in now, her routine, etc. Sometimes even small changes can make a world of difference. Best of luck with her. I do hope you’re able to sort something out soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
"She's beyond where training can help her because there is no threshold line. She's almost always over it."

Sorry to hear you are still struggling with Vitae :( What do you mean by this? I know you had some challenges between Vitae and Manna, but it sounded like outside of her moments Vitae was able to 'be a dog' in the house. Maybe I missed a post somewhere. And, what did the different vet behaviorists suggest for you to do? Did vets rule out something neurological (bloodwork, MRI, etc?)?
She can be a dog as long as certain conditions are met
1- a human is in the same room (this is turning into just me being in the same room, not even my husband is good enough anymore)
2- Manna is in a different room
3- it doesn't sound like Manna is having attention

I take 5 minutes to poop and next thing I know Vitae has a hole in the wall and is screaming bloody murder.(extreme seperation anxiety)

Even if Manna is asleep in a different room Vitae will sometimes just decide to rush the door unprovoked and attack the door.
(But she is still perfectly fine playing with Manna in the back yard...just doesn't like other dogs in the house including Manna who's been there longer than Vitae been alive)
Also still perfect with the cat/new cat/strange cats

The second it sounds like Manna is up to something, Vitae wants to get involved. Sometimes in a good way sometimes in an aggressive way.


She goes from relaxed to freakout too fast for us to counteract or do anytype of counter conditioning. And the distance is inconsistent at the best of times.
The only time she is truely calm is in her crate but that's starting to slip as well.

The vet thinks is bad breeding/neuro/genetic because of when it started and her background. But tests turn up with nothing.

We were prescribed all sorts of things to calm her down in hopes that we could create a window in order to counter condition.

She's just gotten worse over the last year/2years at a very quick rate and REALLY got bad after getting fixed.



I know this is kind of a frustrating question, but have you tried multiple psychiatric medications, or just one? They're tricky things because we don't actually know how or why they work, and (in humans at least) the same medication can produce vastly different results in two different people with the same symptoms/diagnosis. If you've only tried one medication, it might be worth trying a different one.
We're on med number 5...6?
CBT oil is the most recent (a little over a week)
I have the same problem with my brain too..anxiety out the butt...so I understand how she must feel.

I second everything that’s already been said. Vets can be pricey, but it really would be worth it to try every vet you can possibly get to in your area. I’m actually slightly disgusted to hear your veterinarian would say your dog is beyond help. You may also find it worthwhile to visit/consult with someone who studies canine psychology. It’s hard for us to provide help as well without the history of the dog, the conditions she’s living in now, her routine, etc. Sometimes even small changes can make a world of difference. Best of luck with her. I do hope you’re able to sort something out soon.
I hear what you're saying.
In a perfect world she would be in a single dog house with a human home all day as she's still ok with her crate but needs people most of the time.

My mom says that once her dog passes that she would take Vitae as dad is retired and mom is retiring in a few years. Both are still active and spoil their dogs
But her current dog is only 15lbs so bad idea right now. But has been falling apart for a few years now. I think max 3 years left in her. Though I wish there be more. She's a cute gremlin.

I honestly don't have money left. She drained our savings and maxed out a card already. We want to find a new vet but I'm in a small town and the next vet we haven't tried yet is a 7 hour drive away. I'm hoping for a miracle with the CBT oil.

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Discussion Starter #7
CBD oil I presume?

What dosage in mg per day?
Yup.

Bacon flavored CBD oil.
I have to double check but I think 40mgper day.
Might have to up that to twice a day.

Vitae is 75lbs

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Very sad :(

I doubt this will fix things, if 'fix' was ever a thing with dogs... But here is a separation exercise that at least can't hurt. It's choice based separation exercise that is focused on desensitization without increasing stress throughout the training session. I wish you the very best.

1. Only start when Vitae is calm. You can use a settle on mat or crate behavior if that's already solid. But it's best if Vitae settles or goes onto the spot on her own, not cuing her to do it.
2. Note your position while Vitae is calm. Ex. sitting on the couch, standing next to her, etc. This is YOUR starting position.
3. When Vitae is calm, turn and walk a few steps away from her. Any amount that is guaranteed to keep her under threshold and not worried AT ALL. You might start with one step. But if Vitae is totally chill if you are moving in the same room, you can take multiple steps.
4. If this is done correctly, Vitae will be totally chill and even bored with your movements. However far you moved, go BACK to starting position and hang out for a few seconds to make sure Vitae is still calm. You can throw Vitae a treat as well.
5. *very important* If Vitae gets up and moves towards you at any point, go back to your starting position. You don't need to talk to her or give her treats. Simply going back and hanging out in starting position should ease her stress and help her settle again. When she does, start again and make it easier for her.
6. Repeat, increasing your distance over time as Vitae continues to be comfortable.

The problem with traditional DS/CC, especially for separation, is we normally choose when to start the exercise. We can have the best DS/CC protocol and the best treats, but it still won't work if the dog is already stressed out internally. Sometimes you can't even start a training session because the dog already anticipates the exercise and is too 'antsy' for it. By waiting for when Vitae is naturally calm, Vitae controls the session by telling you when she is ready. By going back to starting position when Vitae gets up, you are assuring Vitae that she controls the game and she can make you come back if she is uncomfortable. By going back to starting position in EVERY repetition, you reduce stress each repetition. Because the other problem with traditional DS/CC is when things go well we always increase criteria, and however thoughtfully we do it the dog is still stressing up because the stimulus continues to increase even as they are succeeding.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Going to try this

But not gonna lie. If me going poop sets her off sometimes...well not sure how well this is gonna work.

But yeah she chills right out as along I'm in the same room so shouldn't hurt right?
Very sad :(

I doubt this will fix things, if 'fix' was ever a thing with dogs... But here is a separation exercise that at least can't hurt. It's choice based separation exercise that is focused on desensitization without increasing stress throughout the training session. I wish you the very best.

1. Only start when Vitae is calm. You can use a settle on mat or crate behavior if that's already solid. But it's best if Vitae settles or goes onto the spot on her own, not cuing her to do it.
2. Note your position while Vitae is calm. Ex. sitting on the couch, standing next to her, etc. This is YOUR starting position.
3. When Vitae is calm, turn and walk a few steps away from her. Any amount that is guaranteed to keep her under threshold and not worried AT ALL. You might start with one step. But if Vitae is totally chill if you are moving in the same room, you can take multiple steps.
4. If this is done correctly, Vitae will be totally chill and even bored with your movements. However far you moved, go BACK to starting position and hang out for a few seconds to make sure Vitae is still calm. You can throw Vitae a treat as well.
5. *very important* If Vitae gets up and moves towards you at any point, go back to your starting position. You don't need to talk to her or give her treats. Simply going back and hanging out in starting position should ease her stress and help her settle again. When she does, start again and make it easier for her.
6. Repeat, increasing your distance over time as Vitae continues to be comfortable.

The problem with traditional DS/CC, especially for separation, is we normally choose when to start the exercise. We can have the best DS/CC protocol and the best treats, but it still won't work if the dog is already stressed out internally. Sometimes you can't even start a training session because the dog already anticipates the exercise and is too 'antsy' for it. By waiting for when Vitae is naturally calm, Vitae controls the session by telling you when she is ready. By going back to starting position when Vitae gets up, you are assuring Vitae that she controls the game and she can make you come back if she is uncomfortable. By going back to starting position in EVERY repetition, you reduce stress each repetition. Because the other problem with traditional DS/CC is when things go well we always increase criteria, and however thoughtfully we do it the dog is still stressing up because the stimulus continues to increase even as they are succeeding.
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It shouldn't hurt because it respects Vitae's threshold at all times :)

I had an appointment with a dog that has severe SA and would jump up from total rest and run to the door the moment her owner stood up from the chair. Within 15 minutes the dog was settled on her bed while the owner walked to the door and jiggled the doorknob. This was in my office. At home, with about 2-3 weeks of training, the owner worked to the point where she could put on work clothes, open the door, and step outside for a few seconds - the dog doesn't get up from her bed. Before training, The dog usually started shaking and panting with any predeparture cues and the owner could only wear PJs in the house. Long ways to go. And there are caveats to my beginning-success story too (so far it only works at night, not during the day). But certainly, progress can be made.
 

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I'm so sorry, and it really does sound like you're doing everything you can for her.

My only other advice is to look into Malena Demartini. Her company specializes in separation anxiety and does remote consults/training. I've not used her, but she's recommended by a trainer I very much respect (Sarah Stremming of the Cog Dog Radio podcast). I can't guarantee she can help, of course, but she might be able to provide a new perspective.

Best of luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
It shouldn't hurt because it respects Vitae's threshold at all times :)

I had an appointment with a dog that has severe SA and would jump up from total rest and run to the door the moment her owner stood up from the chair. Within 15 minutes the dog was settled on her bed while the owner walked to the door and jiggled the doorknob. This was in my office. At home, with about 2-3 weeks of training, the owner worked to the point where she could put on work clothes, open the door, and step outside for a few seconds - the dog doesn't get up from her bed. Before training, The dog usually started shaking and panting with any predeparture cues and the owner could only wear PJs in the house. Long ways to go. And there are caveats to my beginning-success story too (so far it only works at night, not during the day). But certainly, progress can be made.
Awesome

Weird thing is

I can go to work no problem

But if I need to go check the mail after I've been home. Then it's the end of the world.

She's very situational and specific about things like the time (I never thought that dogs could tell time until I got Vitae)

I'd like to get her calm more generalized.

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I know a few dogs that are very... particular... like that too :/
Same as your case, meds don't necessarily help or they haven't found the right combo. I really hope you find a way to progress! And share if you do!
 

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Yup.

Bacon flavored CBD oil.
I have to double check but I think 40mgper day.
Might have to up that to twice a day.

Vitae is 75lbs

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So CBD is pretty safe even in high doses but its good to ramp up slowly just in case. Main risk of very high doses is low blood pressure.

CBD tends to have a reverse tolerance effect. Unlike many meds where one tends to need more and more over time to get the same effect, CBD is a less is more kind of supplement once its built up a base stability.

You can purchase CBD isolate as a powder or crystal which can be mixed with olive oil and very likely will be a lot cheaper than a dog specific oil. In the US, around $20-25 per gram. Personally, I would up it by 10 mg per day until she's at 100 mg per day, monitoring her that there is no effect on breathing or blood pressure (visible effect, not saying actual bp checking) and keep at 100 mg per day for 2-3 weeks. Maybe even 150 mgs. The idea being to help "reset" the endocannibinoid system. Then, taper back down to 50 mgs daily or so.

Remember that it is fat soluble so better with a meal.
 
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