[scottyb]

I have a 3 year old Aussie. Who is great for the most part with my children most women that come into the house but has some serious aggression problems. I can not take him anywhere and do to his biting he can't be around anyone outside a couple people with out wanting to bite them.
Lately he does not respond to me. Actually will run because I am the one that corrects him. He will lay on his side and roll to his back once I raise my voice and go towards him. I never hit him though I have been told to pen him down hold his scruff and say no.
He has no food aggression. Thinks small dogs are toys and will grab them by the tail. Other dogs he starts fights unless I pen him down tell him no and allow the other dog to approach him. When I release him he plays with them.
He has been aggressive since 12 weeks old went after my neighbors which I made him sit and then let them approach him. continued to be a problem where he would lunge at people. When walking him any house with a dog he immediately went into attack mode weather the dog was there or not. He just remembered where they lived. He chases cats over the fence and for several days will be fixated on the spot they jumped the fence. He has busted through the fence three times chasing cats. I let him out in the morning to go to the bathroom and he charges it first thing nothing being there. I call him he doesn't respond just wants to go after it. I tell him No and try to get him focused on something else.
He is trained to sit at the door and stay not allowed to go out with out being called. He isn't allowed on the furniture. Spends his days with me following me around the house. Been trained to search which he loves. plays fetch, brings bones and sets them next to me. Jumps next to us but not on us. Lays sits stays. Drops anything he has in his mouth. When I daughters come home he charges the door barking, does the same with me, but stops short of biting and goes into play mode.
Anyone else he goes straight to barking and biting. I have had people come to the door while I make him sit and stay grab his collar tell him no sit but he goes nuts. Tried the not paying attention to his response and standing between him and the door with a muzzle on.
He loves riding in the car but anytime another car comes next to us or people walking he goes straight into attack mode.
had people over asked no one to pay attention to him we sat at the table he was fine as he came up to people after relaxing and becoming playful they would give him a pet. Nothing to get him excited. Then one person dropped something and as the reached for it he immediately charged and bit them. He was put on his side told no and put in the garage.
the next time my daughter had friends over put him in his pen sat outside next to it waited til he calmed down allowed him to come out and walk around around while the girls sat quietly. He did fine for about 5 minutes walking up to each no one paying him attention going about their stuff. Then as he seemed all good one girl called him pet him threw his ball and which he started to chase then turned, charged and bit the girl next to her.
I take him for a walk anyone or any dog approaches he immediately goes into protective mode. I grab the leash make him stand right next to me tell him no. If he doesn't stop I tell him to sit. If he keeps it up I tell him no rub his head and repeat no. As soon as the other dog or person gets near he tries to bit them focuses on them as we walk away.
Driving in the car which he loves he goes nuts trying to get anyone near the car. I correct him tell him to sit but he goes right back to doing it. If they leave he searches for them.
I take him to petco make him sit and he goes into immediate attack mode. I make get on his side grab his scruff tell him no. Will make him sit tell him no. He just keeps going.
Take him to the local coffee shop stand back let people pass in the distance stand between him and the people tell him no but he still wants to go after them.
Done the stranger give him a treat still get the same response.
The last attack my daughter had a friend over both played with him the night before. I took him outside to go to the bathroom and play. had him on a tie out that extended 3 feet into the house. He went to the bathroom I walked to the door both firls sitting on the couch not paying attention to him. He comes charging in full blast snaps the tie out jumps on the girl bites her shoulder my daughter screamed no pushed him down and he immediately bit the girls foot. Completely unprovoked. No one has hit him. Don't use sprays. Small tap on the side or pinned is all he gets. until the last 6 mouths he has slept in a kennel. This is the fourth Aussie I have had. He comes from a good breeder of champing show/agility dogs. Gets along with my mom her husband and a couple female friends, me and my daughters. Out of four times of biting people only one was provoked my daughters wrestling and he went after the aggressor. He was corrected at the time.
Any suggestions? Hate to have to put him down. Can't adopt him out because of the attacking. Hiring a trainer isn't an option right now. This is the first dog I have not been able to have off leash following all my commands. He attacks all small animals, spent an hour under my deck attacking a racoon. Still looks for it a month latter. Not sure how to break that focus. Treats calling him putting him on a leash and walking him outside to go to the restroom grabbing a toy and try playing with him. Just wants to go after something that's not there.

 

[PatriciafromCO]

This would be some of your base line issues if you will do it then that is what everyone would do to them...
Lately he does not respond to me. Actually will run because I am the one that corrects him. He will lay on his side and roll to his back once I raise my voice and go towards him. I never hit him though I have been told to pen him down hold his scruff and say no.

force only works short term, doesn't teach them any skills, eventually the animals fight back at it.

 

[HollowHeaven]

First off, stop pinning him down and yelling at him. You are not helping anything.

Secondly, take him to the vet and have a full blood panel done on him. Have his thyroid checked and everything.
Then find a behaviorist.

 

[scottyb]

penning the dog down holding his scruff is a natural pack response. The dominant or pack leaders do this and growl at the dog. It's not a abusive behavior and doesn't harm the dog. Laying on there side with holding their scruff they become submissive. It's a natural way of showing dominance and teaching what no means. Sometimes I growl. Something I have done with other dogs (including Aussie's) with no problems, something several dog trainers have shown or told me to do. Same with the pat on the side. Something that is done with in the pack with the nose. It's a none aggressive move non violent response. It;s done in a way the dog doesn't really see it but feels a slight touch. I am the one that has to put him in his kennel, put him in the car, bring him in at night, take away anything he might get a hold of that my daughters might have left out. Napkin with food wrapped in it. Aussie;s are smart and he has figured out that when I call him it can mean end of play time.

 

[scottyb]

Behaviorist is the one of many that said pin him down by the scruff. Again it's a natural thing down when the pack. Watch pups play and watch the domiant dog correct them. They pin them by the scruff.

 

[Shell]

Behaviorist is the one of many that said pin him down by the scruff. Again it's a natural thing down when the pack. Watch pups play and watch the domiant dog correct them. They pin them by the scruff.

Try a new behaviorist that actually understands dog behavior. Between dogs, pinning briefly can be part of play but there is a give and take between the dogs who take turns. Like "tag, you're it." Pinning with aggression is threatening and the dog on the receiving end feels the threat.

You may be having a problem with a misdirected herding drive, Aussie and such can be focused towards keeping the flock in line.

But really, you need in person advice from someone that doesn't advocate holding your dog to the floor.

 

[scottyb]

Vet checked him out everything came back good. His response was some dogs are just aggressive and I should seriously consider putting him down. That's not a real option. Behaviorist spent an hour with him wasn't much help except explaining to my daughters we all need to be on the same page doing the same thing. A local dog whisper as they call him looked and said as far as knowing who is dominant the dog knows his place in the pack. Knowing to sit at the door and waiting to be called out, sitting staying all are good signs. I even have agility course setup which he runs through daily On top of the hiding treats under a paper plate and have him search it out. Same with having my daughter hide and send him out looking for her. I feed him healthy all natural food. He spends most his day with me so except runs to the store he isn't left alone for long periods of time.

 

[scottyb]

It's normally done quick and brief followed by lots of petting and praise. Only time held is when another non aggressive dog is around which gives them a minute to feel safe. He goes plays with them with no aggression at all.
Think you are correct on the herding may also be some position going on. That we are like toys to him that no one can be around and seen as a threat.

 

[Shell]

Online, check out Ian Dunbar, Sophia Yin and Patricia McConnell for articles and blog posts for dog behavior. Very reputable sources.

Crantastic, a member here, has some links on dominance theory and why it is debunked. The short of it is though that even the kinda original basis of it has retracted his studies.

Knowing to sit at the door, waiting for permission are all good things but aren't related to any human/dog dominance nor aggression issues. Simply trained behavior.

 

[5 s corral]

sounds like what she told you (pinning down ) is not working

 

[merry25]

Hi there, will be nice to see some pictures!

 

[HollowHeaven]

Your primary problem is that you have not found a trainer who knows how to wipe his butt right.

Science has disproven that pack theory. All you're doing is hurting your dog and making it worse. You're not teaching him a thing.

 

[fourdogs]

Agree with the others. However, if you ever have guests over again, especially KIDS, PLEASE PUT THE DOG IN HIS CRATE AND DO NOT LET HIM OUT UNTIL THE CHILD HAS LEFT. I'm surprised you haven't had the pants sued off you!

 

[scottyb]

I normally crate him when anyone is over or put him in his dog run. My daughter let him out the with her friend the night before when I ran to the store (something that has been dealt with) and he played well with the girl who has her own Aussies and isn't fearful. Think people get the wrong picture on the pin down. I sit him first then as his behavior increases I will pin him by holding his scruff making him lay on his side. Tell him No then follow up with pets and praise as soon as he relaxes and gets to his calm state. Non violent not daily and only when he continues to escalate. Why he gets in the submissive mode when I raise my voice something I don't like to do. The breathing exercise (suggested by homeopathic trainer), ignoring, holding his collar, or pulling his leash for correction have no effect on him actually gets him going more.
Really not concerned about getting sued. I more concerned about the people getting hurt and the dogs well being. The money stuff is just money it's having to go to court and having him ruled aggressive and ordered to be put down that has most my concern. Plus him being happy. Loves to go out on walks and rides in the car.
It's the continued focus that last for days that has me concerned outside of the actual attacks. Thinking back on things I notice he puts himself between me and the door. If he comes in my room he lays between me and the door where he can watch it. I go to the restroom/shower he lays right outside the door. Does the same with my daughters. When we sit at the table or living room he lays where he is between the front door facing it and us.
Seems he is confused on his actual role of protector/herder and focus on things for days because he hasn't gotten his reward. IE caught the cat, racoon, or whatever else he is focused on getting. Changing his focus to a toy, playing a game or a toy doesn't work. letting him sniff out the area making sure it's gone raises his anxiety.
I am checking out Shell's recommendations. Also found a local trainer who deals with aggression and trains police/guard dogs. He is willing to come to the house and see him in his environment and spend a few days doing different visits rather than a singular visit and making a determination that doesn't help.Also willing to monitor the dog while out in public. Someone who is willing to listen and make a determination without saying put him down. Do this pay me a hundred bucks now.

 

[Shell]

Think people get the wrong picture on the pin down. I sit him first then as his behavior increases I will pin him by holding his scruff making him lay on his side. Tell him No then follow up with pets and praise as soon as he relaxes and gets to his calm state. Non violent not daily and only when he continues to escalate.

That is exactly what I pictured by your original description. I'm not saying at all that you are physically hurting the dog, but the problem is that pinning a dog by the scruff or holding him to the floor by the neck in any way is a very stressful thing for the dog. He isn't going "submissive" really, he is shutting down. A time-out in another room may be a better tactic because it allows the dog to relax at their own speed without additional stress or confusion.

Also found a local trainer who deals with aggression and trains police/guard dogs.

Tread carefully when using a police dog trainer for a pet dog. Police and guard dog trainers are generally very good at what they do-- train specifically bred dogs with very specific temperaments to WORK. Which often means they are NOT good at training pet dogs or actually dealing with aggression in pet dogs. K9s are carefully selected and natural aggressive or guard tendencies are carefully developed and focuses and trained to the Nth degree. This isn't what you are looking for when dealing with a different type of dog (herder) in a different situation (a home with a lot of people around). That's not to say that this particular trainer can't help, just that he'd probably have to have intentionally broadened his experience and knowledge away from guard/police type training and into the pet dog realm. Several visits is good though.


Meanwhile, try giving your dog jobs to do. Carrying a backpack on walks, fetching items, and such. Turn his focus into a good thing.

 

[fourdogs]

Pinning him down: this is his point of view:
A stranger shows up at the door and he starts to bark (normal). Only you've scolded him, and given leash corrections and then pinned him down that he sees stranger as an imminent danger to HIMSELF. Strangers show up and DAD gets mad at ME! So he's going to "get" the stranger before they get him.

This dog has also not learned self control. He needs to be taught sit/stay and down/stay in a positive manner.

NOW. what do you do? You have a neighbor help you with the door situation. You get small pieces of hot dog or string cheese, and you put your dog on a leash.
Ring the bell. Dog barks. You ask for a sit and immediately there is cheese in front of his nose. He's going to bark (because he's been conditioned to do so), but every breath he takes he's quiet, right? boom! cheese! Open the door slightly, maintain that sit/stay (just place him back into a sit withOUT doing any corrections. Just physically plonk his butt down and give a treat).
Close the door.
Ring the bell.
Cheese.

Repeat opening the door varying degrees until he anticipates a treat every time that bell rings!
Do this on walks as well. I also recommend using a Halti so that you have 100% head control at all times.

Next, read the book "Click to Calm." And then FORGET any sort of physical correction/hitting/leash correction and pinning.
You've given him the idea that he has to protect himself because when strangers show up, he gets in trouble.

Keep the dog on leash in the house, because if the doorbell unexpectedly rings, you will need to have 100% control.

If you keep letting this dog bite kids, you will have legal trouble, he will be labeled as a vicious/dangerous dog and he does face the danger of being put down.

He needs desensitization and MANNERS training, big time.

Volhard "What all Good Dogs Should Know" has a good section on how to do/reinforce sit/stays and down/stays.

I hope this helps. I had a difficult (dominant) as my first dog, and now recently have had 2 fearful dogs. They would have both become "aggressive" had I punished them for growling/barking at strangers and other dogs (things which frighten them). I give tiny tasty treats and desensitize them, and suddenly strangers aren't so frightening- they come to expect good things.

I also DO NOT FORCE THE DOG to be petted. Dogs are cute, sure but I see no reason why a perfect stranger should touch my dog if the dog doesn't welcome it. I know I wouldn't like being hugged by a stranger! Don't know what to say to people trying to approach your dog? "Sorry, he prefers to be admired from a distance, he's not much for petting, thanks!" I have also physically put myself between the stranger and my dog if they don't 'get the picture.'

I hope some of this helps.
This is a serious situation, and you will need to be persistent and diligent. Read the books, keep learning about positive reinforcement and desensitization.

 

[scottyb]

stranger at the door he goes to the garage or dog run. Only time leash correction which don't agree with is in public which I know doesn't work. Just makes him want to go more. Pinned down by scruff happens when he gets to rough playing with my daughters, or a none aggressive dog approaches and he goes after them. When released he actually plays with the other dogs and has a positive experience. You right on the got to get them before he does. He does know, sit and stay. Knows he is allowed to jump around us but not on us. He will sit and stay for 20 minutes until called no treats just petting and praise.
Going tomorrow to get liver treats. His stomach is to sensitive for cheese and find a volunteer to help there. Think someone he knows at first then work to a stranger?
I have the Halti that connects like a harness much improvement compared to just the collar. I will try the one that wraps the muzzle.

I actually found that if a stranger just ignores him he does better problem is most people see him and have to make a commit or tense up. Neither does me or him any good.

K9 trainer has expanded to aggressive behavior, companion and service animals. I asked for 10 references all positive feed back. You are correct most police/guard dog trainers focus on agressive breeds. I know a good well trained guard dog shouldn't respond to anything unless an actual threat is present. Stranger walking up should not be considered a threat. Stranger charging acting in a threatening matter dog should be trained to bark and go from there or command form handler/owner.

Truly appreciate your advice. I will start immediately with your suggestions.