Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
In the breed I'm interested in, there is a somewhat well known breeder that has produced a ton of CH dogs, been AKC breeder of the year, AKC top stud, ect. I don't think their dogs are owner handled but regardless, they have their kennel name.

They also has a *lot* of bad press on public online places- the breed forum i'm on doesn't discuss breeder names except for in PM so I'm not sure the general opinion of them within the breed, but from what is available as reviews/ things tied to their kennel name online it can't be good. puppies with serious genetic issues, refusal to honor their warranty for a replacement pup, complaints that their dogs are kenneled 24/7 and its run like a business, ect.

I know this is rare. But in your breed, is there a breeder or two like this? One that produces lots of CH/titled dogs but is looked at unfavorably? Or is this just an extremely rare occurance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
This particular breeder does the *basic* health testing (OFA hips and elbows, CERF, some dogs have cardiac and some have EIC clearances) but what I consider "unfavorable" is the fact that they are knowingly rebreeding dogs that have produced puppies with deadly congenital defects (in one "famous" case all over their reviews, leaving a puppy dead at just under 6 months).

What I dont understand is how the breeder can continue to produce CH dogs. I know CH is only one part of a good dog (health, temperment, ect all matter too) but what reputable breeder would ever choose to use one of their dogs at stud, knowing the health problems theyve produced? Will these breeders eventually just run out of dogs to outcross to and drive their lines into the ground?

also SOB, i know that ckcs health testing is much more expensive for SM and MVD, not just a simple x-ray. Do you think that has anything to do with it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,779 Posts
Rescued we have breeders (judges) who have CH dogs that produce young pups that have SM, or who have a sibling that gets it and then they sell those dogs on to other countries where few are in the know. As the condition is incompletely penetrant (as is MVD) they take the gamble that the dog will produce better elsewhere or through different females . . . at least for a while. Often it works but, IMHO, at too high of a cost. The unlucky puppies produced in this higher risk situation are sacrificed and the future of the breed continues to be sacrificed. If my memory serves me there was a 2004 report that stated 94% of CH Cavaliers have a first degree relative with SM. For heart conditions that would be 100%. I'll go for a look for the source but meanwhile here is a statement by the former Chairman of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club of the UK, Mrs. Leslie Jupp, from the 24th March, 2009.

"There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals. I have tried my utmost to defend and support the breed and the club. This weekend was proof, if proof is needed, that there is no point in deluding myself, or others, that self-regulation is possible."
This is not about expensive testing. It is about the reputation of their kennel or line. For the breeders that bring the known risky dogs in and use them . . . it is about getting a leg up with a known 'name' in the breed. It is about the realization that there is no where 'trustable' to go when a breed is so rife with risks, yet the very human desire to not give up.

With regard to cost of testing and inconclusive (hard to understand) results, yes that plays in.

SOB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
458 Posts
I choked back the phrase 'a breeder or two'!
No. There is not a breeder or two . . .
there are TONS.
Yes, yes and yes ...
Except:

I would only change the words "are TONS"
to the phrase "is an extremely high proportion" ..

I fear for the future of our breed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I hope chaos and others will chime in. I'm *hoping* that maybe this can still be considered an anomaly in most breed circles. the CKCS health testing is just such a nightmare (i dont mean to be rude).

Also, since I'm sure you know.... what in essence happened with cockers? I remember growing up (nineties) they were beginning to fall out of popularity because "they're overbred and can be agressive." Was any of that true? I remember them suddenly falling from one of the most popular breeds and I always wondered what happened.

Your poor spaniels have had some hard struggles :(

Yes, yes and yes ...
Except:

I would only change the words "are TONS"
to the phrase "is an extremely high proportion" ..

I fear for the future of our breed.
Giant Schnauzer? or are you referring to the CKCS as well?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
471 Posts
I'm pretty stringent in what I expect to see in a breeder and what I consider a "ethical" breeder to be, definitely more so than most people, but I would say the vast majority of breeders I look into do things I would consider "unethical." I spent quite a while looking for a Cardigan breeder - even going so far as to look for breeders in far off countries - and was not able to find one that met all my expectations, anywhere on this planet Earth. Many of those breeders were "top" breeders with dogs winning at Westminster, Crufts, etc.

I think the biggest thing to remember is that, as I have come to realize after meeting many Conformation people, with enough time and money, any dog can become a Conformation Champion. That isn't to say that showing dogs isn't worth it or that people shouldn't be proud of their Champion dogs, but it's certainly only one piece of the puzzle. Someone who is putting Championships on all their dogs can appear to be a great, responsible breeder, even when it turns out that they're skimping on the health side of things.

I, for one, think that a CHIC number should be a requirement before a dog can earn their Championship (as in, even if a dog has earned all the necessary points, they should need to submit their CHIC number before they obtain the title.) That wouldn't help with the health issues that cannot be tested for, obviously, but it would be better than flying blind the way we are now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I, for one, think that a CHIC number should be a requirement before a dog can earn their Championship (as in, even if a dog has earned all the necessary points, they should need to submit their CHIC number before they obtain the title.) That wouldn't help with the health issues that cannot be tested for, obviously, but it would be better than flying blind the way we are now.
two questions that i cant remember the answer to-

1. can a dog get a CHIC with failing grades? as in if the hip OFA shows mild dysplasia but the breeder still submits the result, can that count as the hip part of the chic certification? or do the results have to be submitted AND passing to earn a chic?

2. arent CHIC certifications based off of the suggested minimum health tests for the breed, and isnt the breed club the one who provides that info? so in the case of the CKCS, could the breed club turn a blind eye to the SM problem, not put it in their official "here's what we should test for", and then it isnt required to get a chic?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,779 Posts
Also, since I'm sure you know.... what in essence happened with cockers?
I went from mentoring in Cockers as a young person . . . to a long break and then to Cavaliers. There were definately unethical breeders in Cocker Spaniels as well, high up in breed circles.

Cockers had a very much overused stud dog from the 40s that produced both stubborn and aggressive tendencies (both he and his popular offspring) and the trickle down effect was that through the 80s and 90s the breeds reputation tanked. As well the field coated Cocker that many of us knew and loved was overtaken for the plush headed fluffy show style of American Cocker that I don't recognize and call a grooming nightmare. Health fell at the wayside as well and the breed is known for numerous difficulties although not with the same penetration that they exist in Cavaliers. I believe finding a good Cocker (if you care for the new type) is probably do-able.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Own_Brucie

You might find this interesting: http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.ca/2011/10/how-yanks-cocked-up-cocker.html

SOB
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,890 Posts
I think the biggest thing to remember is that, as I have come to realize after meeting many Conformation people, with enough time and money, any dog can become a Conformation Champion. .
This is not true at all.... You can dress up a mediocre dog with a fancy handler.... But if you have a turd you have a turd....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,890 Posts
Another thing to remember.... IS that if you are winnning, people are going to talk smack. Even dirty smack....

Tons and tons of politics involved.... Don't believe everything you hear or read about a breeder...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,310 Posts
SOB summed it for me. There was even a breeder who was a judge who basically had a puppymill. Her dogs were in horrific conditions. They were removed from her home. She was later reinstated as a judge.

The book Saving Gracie was about the efforts to close down another well known breeder/handler's puppymill.

http://suite101.com/article/saving-gracie-by-carol-bradley---book-review-a215165

In both of these cases, there were many people in the dog world who knew what was going on and just turned a blind eye.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
SOB summed it for me. There was even a breeder who was a judge who basically had a puppymill. Her dogs were in horrific conditions. They were removed from her home. She was later reinstated as a judge.
I do remember this case very well. Sad :( i know there's always bound to be a few "bad apples" but i would hope its not anywhere close to representative of the akc itself.

jb i pm'ed you. neutral non-sporting conformation participant :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
Discussion Starter #14

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
somewhat off topic, but did the stop become much more pronounced and the muzzle markedly shorter from like 1937 on, or is it just because the last few dogs have black coloring/patches?

and also... the apple head isn't hydrocephaly, right?? please tell me thats all grooming.
and the sloping topline?? am i just making things up?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,504 Posts
If it is the one I am thinking of they do not show all there dogs. They are sort of a on there way to being a puppy mill in my opinion. Sorry if we are not talking about the same breeder. You can PM me the breeders name so I can edit this post if it is not the one I am thinking of.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,779 Posts
somewhat off topic, but did the stop become much more pronounced and the muzzle markedly shorter from like 1937 on, or is it just because the last few dogs have black coloring/patches?

and also... the apple head isn't hydrocephaly, right?? please tell me thats all grooming.
Its not all grooming but the domed head is not hydrocephaly either. The page linked below speaks to the 'plush head' and the effect of influential breeders who are head hunters in the Cocker Breed.

http://clestialcockers.com/Standard.html

SOB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,215 Posts
Another thing to remember.... IS that if you are winnning, people are going to talk smack. Even dirty smack....

Tons and tons of politics involved.... Don't believe everything you hear or read about a breeder...
This. Dog shows and the like can be petty places when it boils down to it. Some breeds worse then others. I have found the poodle side of things can get extremely sceptic at times.

We had a groenendael bitch that kept winning show after show and she was a great dog, and because no one had a shoe in if she was competing, this one guy took his dogs to lesser known shows to start getting titles.

If it's an athletic breed I am a firm believer that you have to prove the dog in other arenas as well such as agility etc because a dog can look pretty but putting it through agility etc proves that it's a sound dog that is capable of performing what it was meant to do. (I know not everyon will agree with that but I am talking mainly from a Belgian standpoint)

All said and done though I know of a couple in th Belgian breed that have re bred litters that have produced epilepsy, the combo also produced champions as well.

It's gonna happen, and because most the time the breeders have a big name from the outside looking in, people will keep getting dogs off them without really knowing because they just aren't as involved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,186 Posts
With certain breeds, breeding to standard is inherently unethical because the standards themselves produce health problems. I think it was Crufts that instituted vet checks for a few breeds and 9 dogs were DQ'd for obvious, basic health problems like entropion. Those were Ch dogs that had those conditions the entire time they competed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
With certain breeds, breeding to standard is inherently unethical because the standards themselves produce health problems. I think it was Crufts that instituted vet checks for a few breeds and 9 dogs were DQ'd for obvious, basic health problems like entropion. Those were Ch dogs that had those conditions the entire time they competed.
yes i was quite an avid participant in that 55+ page crufts thread we had here. *thank goodness* i love labs.... and even they are becoming too severe IMO, but i'm trying to find a breeder that has the stocky bench look without a 105 lb body.

unfortunately the aforementioned breeder has dogs that i really like, that arent too severe or heavy...but i'm not touching any of their dogs due to all the genetic issues in their lines.



bubba's organization had some nice labs come ift (in for training to the main facility in NY) last month(see above). Labby looking but not extreme. Bubs dad was an outcross so he's a little different than most of the foundation dogs.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top