Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I was speaking with a breeder recently. She said that the grandmother of a litter of puppies and also the great grandmother of the puppies died from kidney cancer.
Knowing this, would you get a dog from this litter?

Okay. The grandmother didn't have cancer but she did have kidney disease. The great g'mother did have cancer. The sire and dam both had the same mom with kidney disease.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,379 Posts
Are you saying that the sire and dam of this litter are half of full siblings? (Mother and Father of the litter both have the same Mother?)

That is way too close line breeding (probably due to low breed numbers OR due to convenience) IMO. Close line breeding is also done to enhance certain traits, but CAN bring out undesirable recessive traits. Has this breeding been done before? How many litters has this breeder whelped?

The Grandmother died of kidney disease. At what age? The Mother died of kidney cancer. At what age?

In my breed there are large concerns about Degenerative Myelopathy which causes the dog to lose the use of the hindquarters. There is a test for it (I have tested for it in all my dogs) to determine if the dog has two copies of the clear gene (has no DM and will not pass on DM in the puppies), One clear and one DM gene (so the dog will not have DM but is a carrier and must be bred to another dog that is double clear) or has two copies of the DM gene so will develop the disease. All fine and well, but DM is a disease of old dog and rarely shows up in its early stages before the dog is age 8. A lot of dogs with double DM genes die of other causes rather than DM because it shows up so late in life!

If a dog is 12 or 13 and has kidney disease of cancer.. that is not a thing to worry over. It is just life. If the dogs died at ages 3-5 of kidney failure or Kidney cancer, I would not be concerned. I would be more concerned about that close inbreeding bringing out some other undesirable trait.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
549 Posts
I wouldn't. Heck, I'd stop breeding the parents too. Definitely would never consider a litter whose parents are siblings... yikes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,861 Posts
It's really good that the breeder is being up front with puppy buyers about it. I would also agree it depends what age they had kidney issues.

I would also need to know if that is really what you meant about how close of a breeding that is. If there are known issues like that, I would want an outcross.. not a close linebreeding. I would pass.

Edit - Yeah, that is way too close of a linebreeding for me personally. Some do it.. but nope. Not something I want.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
My concern is kidney dysplasia. I’d have to get blood work, ultrasound and still can’t have a definitive without tossue sampling. Of course, that would only be done if there were signa of kidney dosease but I’d hate to go theough all that with a puppy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,745 Posts
I agree that the ages would be really important. It's not all that uncommon for old dogs to end up with renal issues or cancer, and I wouldn't necessarily assume it had to do with any great genetic failing if the dogs in question were in their teens. If they were, say, five? Yeah.

Also I'd really want to know why the breeder chose half-siblings (assuming they don't also have the same father). That would worry me, particularly in a rare breed with a high potential for bottlenecks and limited gene pools, so I'd expect a decent breeder to have a very good explanation for what they're trying to accomplish with that. They should also be able to talk to you about what the coefficient of inbreeding is for this litter and how it compares to the breed as a whole - higher is better, generally speaking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
I share the concerns about the closeness and ambiguity of that breeding. That alone would probably turn me away from the breeder. Furthermore, I’m not one to risk health issues like that. I don’t want to spend an upwards of thousands to buy a purebred pup, only for me to sink thousands more to help a dog who could potentially suffer the same issues as their relatives. Not a risk I’m willing to take, sadly.

It also concerns me that they haven’t offered information as to why this developed, whether or not it was genetic, what age they passed, etc. Honestly, too many red flags to me. I’d recommend you keep searching for a breeder who doesn’t have so many issues and red flags surrounding their name. Best of luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Mother of sire and dam had kidney problem that went undiscovered for an unknown period of time. It was only discovered when there was an unrelated issue and medication had an adverse affect on kidneys that were apparently, already diseased in some way. She died at 11.5. G'mother had cancer and died at same age.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,745 Posts
So not super young, but both died relatively early for a breed that often lives into the mid-teens. Especially given the closeness of the breeding.

Any word on why the breeder chose to mate half-siblings?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,745 Posts
Well, just consider that this means that the mother for both parents of this litter died somewhat early due to an issue you aren't sure is genetic. Is the great-grandmother with kidney problems also the dam of the grandmother with kidney problems? Because that would concentrate the issue even more in this litter, if there is one.

I'll be honest. I would not be interested in this litter, and possibly this breeder. If they have a really good reason behind this breeding, I might entertain it, but it'd have to be a REALLY good reason. I can think of precious few traits in the Lagotto breed that are so important that such a close breeding is justified, but I'm also not at all an expert in the breed. For me, it'd have to be a significant health or temperament reason, because otherwise I don't feel the potential risks of inbreeding depression are worth it (ie to breed a better head to win shows wouldn't be something I'd consider a compelling enough reason, personally).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,140 Posts
Since this is a half sibling breeding on dog with kidney disease I would likely pass, BUT it depends on overall situation. What type of kidney disease? What age? Was there a known environmental cause? Cancer has genetic as well as environmental factors and would also depend on age, was she 5 or 15, big difference.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Kidney disease may or may not have been caused by tooth disease. Both occurred after 11 years but that doesn't mean that something wasn't present earlier.
Also, this is not Lagotto it's Poodle. I was thinking I might get a Poodle then when and if a Lagotto became available, I'd get one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,745 Posts
Bigger reason to pass, imo. Poodles are so numerous that there's really no reason for such a close breeding, especially with relatively short-lived dogs overrepresented in the litter's pedigree.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,483 Posts
There are, like, infinity poodles out there, and they're a generally robust breed, so I don't see a reason to compromise on this. If I were getting a poodle pup from a breeder I'd hold out for one from healthy, long-lived lines known for good temperaments. It's not like it's a rare breed or one where serious health issues are endemic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,296 Posts
There are so many exceptional poodle breeders out there and there should be no reason to compromise at all with this breed.

You could not pay me enough money to get a poodle from this breeder, with just the information you listed.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top