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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I can't find much info on this method. Sounds like forcing, but I really don't know since there are no videos and very limited descriptions.

I like BAT and CAT and LAT....

Does anyone know about "TAF"?

https://www.turnandfacereactivedogs.com/about-taf

The trainer who created this: http://www.cadelac.co.uk/about-me
Quote: "CaDeLacs methods are modern, kind, positive, reward based and work on building a great relationship and understanding between dog and owner, using fun and education."
 

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I checked the FB page and there are a lot of videos there, but I didn't wade through long enough to find actual "TAF" sessions. I did however find quite a few posts defending against supposed fallout.

That + "It works immediately" makes me agree with what you suspect.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I started a thread on the Tricks and Training facebook group and there was no consensus, so I just bought the book and am reading it now.
 

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I'd be interested to hear your opinion of it. Most of what I've read about hasn't been overly positive or supportive with some people referring to it as a modified alpha roll. It really sounds too good to be true....
 

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I started a thread on the Tricks and Training facebook group and there was no consensus, so I just bought the book and am reading it now.
Come back and let us know what you decide.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I'll just repost what I posted in a different place:

Okay, I just read the chapter "Sabre" and the following one where he goes on his first off leash walk, and the Appendix where the Turn and Face technique is described in detail.

First, there are a lot of qualifiers a dog/handler needs to meet for this technique to be applicable. They are (and I am scrolling through the book going in order of what's written):
-must be experienced with dog behavior
-dog must be on a very firm collar
-stooge dogs must not react or move closer
-there must be 3+ stooge dogs and you must seek out and practice around other stooge dogs for 2 days after using the stooge dogs
-work with a professional trainer
-don't do this in public
-don't do this with a dog that has bitten its owner
-don't do it with a dog you don't know or a recently rescued dog
-dog must trust handler fully before using this
-dog must not be allowed to practice reactivity in other settings (ex. from a car or window)
-don't do this with a dog that is unresponsive to the owner
-handler must have great understanding of behavior and timing
-don't use food or toy rewards to distract or redirect a reactive dog
-only reward your dog after the dog stops reacting
-the dog should already be well trained in other regards
-the handler must be physically able to hold the dog, even if the dog is struggling

The technique should be practiced before using it in situations with real dogs. You pull the dog towards you into a "hug" and block their view of the trigger. Pull in a slightly downward motion so that the collar is loose around the windpipe and the dog is not choked. Hold onto the dog until it is calm. Repeat the moment the dog shows a reaction (from a big lunge to a tiny woof) until the dog is totally disengaged from the trigger and being calm or sniffing around. Repeat with other stooge dogs.

Quote: "This is the support we are offering: a big hug."
Quote: "There is no doubt that with most dogs, the first and maybe first few applications of the technique are ugly to see."

It is forcing.

Forcing works sometimes for some dogs. Her 80-90% success rate isn't surprising. Forcing was the primary technique used in dog training for a long time. Other examples include: pushing a dog's butt down into a sit, pulling their legs out into a down. It works for a lot of dogs or it wouldn't have been so popular for so long. And I don't necessarily think it's cruel or mean for some dogs. But it is for some, too.

Not my technique of choice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Various people defending the method said you can make it positive by using R+ to teach the dog to enjoy the hugging motion first. Sure, and I am sure some dogs very motivated by touch would have no issues with this either. But that's not what is listed in the book. I think I would actually give it a chance with the right dog if it was presented in that way.
 

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Thanks, Canyx. I did a little more googling after reading your post this morning. One comment I read implied that this method was ideal for dogs who react out of habit; I can see how it might work in that situation, but that's not going to help many dogs. It's also not teaching the dog an alternate, more appropriate way to behave...I'd be interested to hear about long-term outcomes from using this method.

Various people defending the method said you can make it positive by using R+ to teach the dog to enjoy the hugging motion first. Sure, and I am sure some dogs very motivated by touch would have no issues with this either. But that's not what is listed in the book. I think I would actually give it a chance with the right dog if it was presented in that way.
That would seem to make it more similar to some of the more common management strategies like emergency U-turns and such.

Also, I'm always curious where people get such large supplies of stooge dogs - I can't even get one.
 

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I guess I have "hugged" my dog when he was fearful, such as in a thunderstorm, when we encountered loud fireworks on a walk, or when he became fearful of a group of large dogs barking at him from behind a fence. But, I also know my dog enjoys that type of close cuddling and finds it comforting. He typically initiates it. I don't even know if it would count as a hug, since its more of a "Here, allow me to squat down to your level, scratch your chest, speak soothing to you, and allow you to crawl into my lap if you so desire even though you are a 50 lb. animal. Then, we can get treats and move away from the scary thing." Or, in the case of the thunderstorm, he was pretty much pasted to me on the couch, and now he doesn't care about them.

So if the dog was truly afraid of something, I can see how the comfort from the owner may help, but many dogs also don't seek comfort that way...Otherwise it kind of sounds like you're wrestling a dog...
 

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I'll just repost what I posted in a different place:

Okay, I just read the chapter "Sabre" and the following one where he goes on his first off leash walk, and the Appendix where the Turn and Face technique is described in detail.

First, there are a lot of qualifiers a dog/handler needs to meet for this technique to be applicable. They are (and I am scrolling through the book going in order of what's written):
-must be experienced with dog behavior
-dog must be on a very firm collar
-stooge dogs must not react or move closer
-there must be 3+ stooge dogs and you must seek out and practice around other stooge dogs for 2 days after using the stooge dogs
-work with a professional trainer
-don't do this in public
-don't do this with a dog that has bitten its owner
-don't do it with a dog you don't know or a recently rescued dog
-dog must trust handler fully before using this
-dog must not be allowed to practice reactivity in other settings (ex. from a car or window)
-don't do this with a dog that is unresponsive to the owner
-handler must have great understanding of behavior and timing
-don't use food or toy rewards to distract or redirect a reactive dog
-only reward your dog after the dog stops reacting
-the dog should already be well trained in other regards
-the handler must be physically able to hold the dog, even if the dog is struggling

The technique should be practiced before using it in situations with real dogs. You pull the dog towards you into a "hug" and block their view of the trigger. Pull in a slightly downward motion so that the collar is loose around the windpipe and the dog is not choked. Hold onto the dog until it is calm. Repeat the moment the dog shows a reaction (from a big lunge to a tiny woof) until the dog is totally disengaged from the trigger and being calm or sniffing around. Repeat with other stooge dogs.

Quote: "This is the support we are offering: a big hug."
Quote: "There is no doubt that with most dogs, the first and maybe first few applications of the technique are ugly to see."

It is forcing.

Forcing works sometimes for some dogs. Her 80-90% success rate isn't surprising. Forcing was the primary technique used in dog training for a long time. Other examples include: pushing a dog's butt down into a sit, pulling their legs out into a down. It works for a lot of dogs or it wouldn't have been so popular for so long. And I don't necessarily think it's cruel or mean for some dogs. But it is for some, too.

Not my technique of choice.
So basically, the success rate is high because the "rules" eliminate a huge percentage of dogs to begin with and narrow the confines of the training to highly controlled situations. Kinda like a private school with high entrance requirements bragging about its graduation rate.

Also, the words "applications of the technique are ugly to see" just hollars -not a great idea- to me.

I agree, it is forcing/flooding. Just reading off these descriptions and the little bit available on the website seems to me like its aiming for a shut-down dog rather than a dog that has changed its outlook. Heck, Chester is mister calm dude but he would still be ticked at me for forcing a hug; actually, he is ticked at even the mention of a hug :) On the flip side, Eva LOVES hugs and being squished and held closely but I still don't think it would change her mind about something; rather, it would temporarily calm her to manage a situation until the situation passed.
 

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This would, applied in a very particular way, work for Molly.

Because Molly, on her own, at various stages of reactivity/behavioral work, would turn to me, and bury her face in my stomach/chest because she was overwhelmed and wanted physical comfort. Then she'd peek out or hide to sort of... self-regulate.

But a-) dog's idea, so no force, b-) not already gone into reactive land.

I can and have picked Molly up and moved her when she's losing her mind and I have no doubt I wouldn't get bitten but I also have no doubt it's not teaching her a single, solitary, thing. It's management, you know? And I also have no doubt that someone's going to attempt this and get bitten as a result.
 
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