I saw a dog on a long bite hit hard and go DOWN. We thought "broken neck. " This was at a National event with an excellent helper.I was at a trial a couple years ago and saw a helper accidentally step on a dog's paw just as he was outing off the sleeve. Of course the dog bit him again and then wouldn't out and was dq'd.
I hope the year goes well for you and your dogs!
Tracking can also be an issue where there are Ants.That's really too bad that you have to feel that way. Since I only do the "regular" stuff like rally, obedience, carting, and drafting, trials are fun. Nerves come into it, but still it's a chance to see other dog people, even those I don't train with, and catch up. The biggest worry for me would be in tracking since the area commonly used here is very snaky. No one trains there in warm months and it's not used for trials then. But we get warm streaks in fall and spring, and there have been cases of rattlers seen at trials and when laying track.
This is absolutely true.My husky/shepherd mix foster dog's owner started doing agility with her. They both loved it. But after a couple years of the dog walking out of the ring at trials, the owner decided they would not compete anymore. It just wasn't fun for either of them.
They did practice and train for the life of the dog. She was amazing on the course - out ran and outmaneuvered every border collie. And they both had a blast. By taking the trials out of the picture, the owner didn't get frustrated anymore, and they could just enjoy it.
It's OK to do something "just for fun" and not deal with the "prove we're good" bit. Whether it's because you don't get the results, or you don't like the politics, or you don't like getting up at 0300, or you find the trial helper or decoy or the course less than sufficient, etc, there is nothing wrong with choosing not to trial but continue to have fun training and practicing. I'd go so far as to say, if you and the dog enjoy it, then that is reward enough. Competition is overrated.
. I like those first place ribbons, ha. For me the trial is necessary because without a competition, I'd never train. I enjoy training to some extent but not more than other things I could do. There has to be knowledge that it has a goal, a standard to meet, not in my own opinion but in the opinion of a 3d party who doesn't know me or my dog.Oh it's not that I don't have a decently good time once there. I just don't like it as much as I like training. The trial is (for me) a test of the training and shows up the weak spots.
What a shame. Shutzhund was originally designed to test the genetics of the dog. Now, it is not much more than a circus act.The trial tests the training.
you have a dog from Sitz von der Hose?This dog was chosen for me by his breeders, one of whom was the 2015 World Champion with my dog's father. Iron von den Wölfen
Schutzhund, then IPO and now IGP has not, for some time, been a real breeding test. It is still used as part of the evaluation and folks who breed still want to see titles and videos.What a shame. Shutzhund was originally designed to test the genetics of the dog. Now, it is not much more than a circus act.
you have a dog from Sitz von der Hose?
if so, very nice
There is some truth to this.The male I have now, his mother, naturally civil, is a Cherokee von den Wolfen grand daughter via the sire lines and a Mambo PS grand daughter via the dam's sire lines.
Very strong civil aggression and strong hunt drives. Handler aggression if you don't handle him right and according Ian Dunbar's bite scale, he would be put to sleep by "force free" trainers LOL
What some of these guys don't understand is that you need a toolbox that can hold more than just hotdogs LOL
I use 90 plus percent positive and motivational methods too. Nothing wrong and nothing new with positive reinforcement at all. I let the dog in front of me dictate what methods I use at any particular time and am constantly learning and trying to improve.There is some truth to this.
I do give a lot of credit to the positive reinforcement (P+) folks as much if their training has crossed over to what you and I train for and do.
There ARE a lot of dogs that people have as pets that do very well on P+ only handling.
While I DO use prong collar and e collar in training I find that most of the training, especially at the start, is P+. Puppy training/teaching is with food and that segues to ball reward. Protection training the bite is the reward and a good dog seeks that reward.
As the dog's training progresses corrections become pretty infrequent. It must evolve this way as there are neither corrections or rewards (especially in tracking and obedience) on the trial field!!
No one should malign training tools that work well and leave intact the goal of a happy, well trained dog. Neither side should whole heartedly throw out the tools another uses be it food and a clicker or an e collar. The only caveat is to learn how to use these tools effectively and a personal choice not to use a tool is just that; a personal choice.
The level and intensity of training we seek heading toward a goal of trialing in IGP , PSA, AS, Ring Sport etc. is not generally required for the pets people keep. A lot of pet dogs would never be able to do these sports.
If a pet dog can be trained with only P+, then that is OK. I will tender that in some instances a lot could be accomplished with a clear correction BUT if the owner wishes to spend more time using another method it is their dog and their choice. I use all the tools but I don't use all the tools on every dog.
I leave with this warning:
Handler Aggression or Climbing the Leash is typically due to a bad read on the dog by the handler an lack of clarirty. If you own a strong dog he/she may have an "opinion" about obedience in protection. That opinion needs to be understood and acknowledged without loss of obedience. Most leash climbing is due to bad communication between handler and dog. You can see it coming. Change the conversation. Ask a question the dog can easily answer and reward the answer (bite or ball depending on what you are doing).
Leash climbing in a trial will get a DQ
If you get a chance BigDog85, shoot me a PM (you have turned this off in your profile). I would be interested in "talking" with you further..
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I could not agree more.I use 90 plus percent positive and motivational methods too. Nothing wrong and nothing new with positive reinforcement at all. I let the dog in front of me dictate what methods I use at any particular time and am constantly learning and trying to improve.
What I was trying to say is that when someone limits themselves by saying they are "force free" or "positive only", IMO, they do a disservice to dogs. Many of these "positive only" people that are on the extreme end of the spectrum will put a dog to sleep before trying other methods that doesn't fit their ideology. When they can't handle a dog or the dog doesn't respond to their limited methods then they resort to drugs, rehoming, or death. And usually, there is a very simple solution that isn't found in their toolbox.
I agree that some pet dogs can be trained with positive methods only. I have had dogs that I didn't train at all in the formal sense. However, I will say that many of these "positive only" trainers are actually using some form of force whether it be positive punishment or negative reinforcement - look at head halters. IMO, the idea of force free and positive only is a marketing gimmick to sell feels good. I am aware that trainers such as Dave Kroyer have titled dogs using + only. He will also tell you that it requires a certain temperament and positive only has its limits. Training a dog obedience for sport is not the same as "functional obedience" for real life.
I agree with what you say regarding handler aggression. In my experience, which isn't a lot, and learning from people smarter than me, handler aggression has a genetic component to it and also an environmental factor - meaning you can have ten handlers handle, and raise in their own home environment, that same dog and only a portion of those handlers will experience handler aggression.
There are basically two types of handler aggression: redirected and social/dominant aggression. I should also note for others reading that we are not talking about man-made handler aggression due to poor foundational training or abuse. There is definitely a genetic component involved. There is a trainer that I know of that has a few thousand dogs, from hard-core working line to pets, under his belt and he says that maybe 5% dogs show handler aggression and the vast majority of that is redirected aggression from an amped up dog. There is a very small portion of dogs that show the social/dominant handler aggression and of course some dogs show both forms. I would guess that those numbers would go up when you start talking about specific lines of dogs and especially in specific lines of dutch shepherd or malinois.
The dog I have now has shown both forms of handler aggression during the social maturing phase. Like I said, positive only trainers would say he had a screw loose and had neurological issues lol. Nothing could be further from the truth, this is the best dog - I was looking for real natural aggression - I've had and is a true representative, with all drives being present, of the breed standard albeit a little further to one side of the spectrum. He's a sharp dog and not the best fit for a family with kids.
I guess I accidently blocked messages but its on now. I'm not on here often but feel free to reach out and good luck with your trialing. It sounds like you'll do well.
