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Hello. Our Puppy. Golden Retreiver/Great Pryenees. She is 4 months old(10-21-11 dob)*almost 5mo*..Anyways. We've had her for 2 months. she's half way to 3/4 potty trained. Does excellent while in her kennel(no potty or potty ordor on her pet bed in the kennel). Does good most of the time. However. She has a lot of times when she will NOT let us know when she needs to go potty and i mean absolutely NO warning no "i need to go potty". No whining, no barking, no whimpering, no sniffing, no pacing, no circling. Did the old fashioned "rub nose in it" the butt spanking type punishments to correct this behavior ONLY when positive re-inforcement for going potty outside did NOT work. and no i was not abusive on this, just a quick swat on the hindquarters and a firm "no" while having her nose pointed at it(but not on it or in it, just pointed at it so she can get the smell of what "no" is for). and yes this was done almost immediately after the action was committed(on her potty inside that is).. She will NOT go on a potty pad(and trust me she wont). How do i get her to finish this potty training? AND save my carpet!!!!!!!! **running of urine/stain remover and not paid for 2 more days!**

Also she is into nipping. Did everything i saw on posts, and on some doggy training video's ... She STILL nips!** and yes she has a ton of toys 'n bones! **

O...... One other woe on training.... Chewing things that is left on the floor(baby toys, older kid toys, my stuff).

Please be considerate when posting, Its been YEARS since we've had a puppy!!! and i mean years years years. And i didnt have any of this trouble with him.

And yes she gets daily exercise!!!

I am starting to wonder if my home is the right home for her. I am in the middle of a career change, starting a business(not really time consuming), helping my best friend start a non profit(again not time consuming) and setting up a fundraiser(again not time consuming). We spend HOURS playing with her, and training her, and working with her...

She knows the following commands.
Sit, Lay, Off, Down, No, Ok, Walk, Shake, Up, Jump, Calm, & Mine(relating to door space, my oldest got lenient and she started bolting and trying to go through the door first and i will NOT accept/allow this, so i have established the "mine" to show her that I own the door and I go through it before she is allowed to and only when given the "ok" command is she allowed to go through the doorway*either outside or inside*). She is really good at recall(except when first at doggy park then she isnt that good due to being excited), her name(this changed drastically for the better once we changed her name to a name that is easier to pronounce and can not be said differently). She's not even 5months old and she knows commands that a year old dog in training is taught. She walks beautifully on a leash(meaning doesnt pull).

Am I expecting too much of her or expecting too much of me? Cause there are days when we go without a potty accident! We are moving into a house in a few months(found 1 in my price range that i can afford on my own). So at that time, she'll have access to a backyard to help with the potty training.

Plz dont tell me to pick her up and carry her outside, when she starts to squat. I live in a 3rd floor walk-up apartment, disabled, my limit is 25 pounds and she weighs 40 pounds!!

She is on a feeding schedule(2 1 cups twice a day *morning and evening*), taken outside at the 30min mark after feeding/drinking. then every 3hrs after that**when im off**. She is able to hold it for that long easily. When i am working, she can hold it for up to 7 hrs if needed**in kennel!**. I start my new career at the end of the month and my hours change for training then hours for after training. **8-430 mon-fri training, 10-630 mo/tu/th/fri/sat**.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
i know im not the only 1 going through all this with a young puppy. its just frustrating and if i can not vent somewhere i will likely explode somewhere. lol.
 

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If you're smacking a puppy that young for pottying in the house (she doesn't even have full control of her bladder), I'm going to say that maybe she would do better in another home. Unless you're one of those people who spanks babies to make them too scared to go in their diapers, I'm not even sure how that makes sense. You say that "positive reinforcement didn't work"--how can you know? You didn't give it any time to work. Even a book my grandma had from the 50s said never to punish a puppy for pottying inside. She simply can't control herself all the time and doesn't know how to communicate that she needs to go out.

And "still" nipping? LOL. She's only a baby! My Lab didn't stop nipping for over a year. And chewed stuff up for even longer (we learned not to leave stuff on the floor).

In short, yes, I think you're expecting way too much way too soon. And you haven't even gotten to the most challenging stage. She will likely "forget" everything she knows when she hits teenagerhood, and you need to be patient to get her through that.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
a smack on the hind quarters does no harm to the animal. obiviously your the type that doesn't believe in spanking a child. cause it works. it hurts the person doing it more then the child, and its the same basis with the puppy. i dont do it enough to make it hurt. just the action. she doesn't cringe or jump or flinche away from me or when fast movements happen. And Positive Enforcement was done for over a month, I just started the old fashioned punishment this past week. And I may be asking too much, however, considering how fast she picked up on the tricks and commands, i thought she'd pick up on the other stuff just as quick. And trust me. I know dogs who got smacked for a bad behavior who turned out to be 100% awesome dogs with NO problems what-so-ever. Her littermates(found 4 more littermates), all have the potty training down to a tee with NO accidents inside. and they stopped nipping and chewing up objects inside a month ago, as well. So please try again on the "she's only a baby!" as her 5 littermates are all babies and all know not to nip, not to chew up objects not theirs, and all are 100% potty trained!

Which is why i am frustrated!!!!

but again I AM ONLY VENTING!! and wondering if anybody has tried anything with their puppy that proved either stubborn or a little "slow" and found a method that worked with their dog/puppy and wouldn't mind sharing it. and if you have anything negative to say, please keep it to yourself and not post it. I am trying to keep this in a positive manner and a positive light for those other puppy or dog owners who are having difficulties with the same issues, and need to know new methods for training the puppy/dog to potty outside/pottypad, stop chewing and/or nipping.

btw. adult wolves and adult animals, often punish their offspring in a much worse, harmful manner then a smack across the hind-quarters!!! a sharp bite or swipe of a paw, does much more damage then a light smack.
 

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Well, super. Since everything is working out just fine for you, I'm not sure why you posted anything. Smack away!
 

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Well you didn't really give the positive training very long, and just because the litter mates are getting the training down faster doesn't mean your dog will. All dogs are different, but I don't think any smacking is okay, especially since you didn't give the positive training very long to take. Training can take months. I would rather have my dog do what I want because he wants to make me happy rather than not make me mad or smack him. Dogs are smart, and even if they aren't hurt by it they understand the action. And just because their isn't physical pain doesn't mean their isn't emotional or psychological pain. Regardless of what their animal counterparts do in the wild, your dog was chosen to be a member of your family, and they have their trust in you to care for them and not hurt them in any way. Dogs and humans aren't the same species, so what may be "ok" for a dog to do their offspring may not be "ok" to do for a human to do a dog.

It just seems like you are expecting way too much, and when you the pup doesn't meet your expectations you punish. At 4 months they sometimes can't even physically tell when they are about to pee, let alone send signals. Pups also go through stages where their bladders haven't grown as fast as the rest of the body so their is more pee than the bladder can handle. Nipping is not ok, but he is only 4 months. That is still very, very young, especially for a large breed puppy. They can keep their "puppiness" up to around 3-4 years old.

I say go back to positive methods only and actually give it time. Your dog is too young to have all this be expected of it, so being potty trained and not nipping takes time. Not just a few weeks and sometimes not even a few months. Give your pup a break, please, and stop smacking.
 

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Does excellent while in her kennel(no potty or potty ordor on her pet bed in the kennel). Does good most of the time.
That's a good start.

She has a lot of times when she will NOT let us know when she needs to go potty and i mean absolutely NO warning no "i need to go potty". No whining, no barking, no whimpering, no sniffing, no pacing, no circling.
Chances are there are signs you are missing. It was hard for me at times to notice Snoopy's signs, because sometimes they were subtle, or there was just a very short amount of time between the sign and the pee hitting the floor! Your eyes need to be glued to your pup 100% of the time when she's out of her kennel. If they can't be glued to the pup, she needs to be in her kennel, or you simply need to take her outside more often than you currently are.

Did the old fashioned "rub nose in it" the butt spanking type punishments to correct this behavior ONLY when positive re-inforcement for going potty outside did NOT work. and yes this was done almost immediately after the action was committed(on her potty inside that is).
Don't do it that way. There is the potential to cause problems, and you're doing it wrong anyway. "Almost immediately after the action was committed" is not the right time to punish. You should only reinforce or punish AT the moment the action is taking place... meaning, if you don't punish while she is in the act, there's nothing to be gained by doing it after the fact.

The timing aside, there's no need to use physical punishment anyway. Don't get angry when an accident happens. Just remind yourself that any time your pup potties or poops on the floor, it's because you didn't take her outside at the right time. Take the blame and be more vigilant next time. Personally, what I did was use a mild verbal correction on the occasions I screwed up and Snoopy peed on the floor... not yelling at him, but using an urgent voice to say "no no let's go outside" or whatever to try to interrupt him and get him out the door to hopefully finish out there, at which point I could reward him for doing it in the correct place.

Also she is into nipping. Did everything i saw on posts, and on some doggy training video's ... She STILL nips!** and yes she has a ton of toys 'n bones! **
Yeah, puppies do that. She's still young, and it'll take time to train it out of her. You could read the sticky on bite inhibition in this forum. But it would probably help to know just what you have tried already. What methods have you already implemented, and how long did you stick to one method before giving it up?

O...... One other woe on training.... Chewing things that is left on the floor(baby toys, older kid toys, my stuff).
This is an easy one. Don't leave things on the floor that you don't want chewed. Alternatively, don't give your puppy access to anything you don't want chewed. You should have at least one puppy-proofed room where there aren't any loose articles left within her reach, so she has somewhere relatively safe to play outside of her kennel. But she still needs to be supervised 24/7 until she is house trained.

Am I expecting too much of her or expecting too much of me? Cause there are days when we go without a potty accident!
I think the answer to that is yes. It sounds like you're doing well in other areas, but she's too young for you to be expecting perfection. I think if you stick to the positive methods, and really reward her well when she goes outside every single time, she'll learn.

It's different for everyone and every dog. My pup's last accident occurred just over two months ago, when he was 7 months old... and really that wasn't a case of him not knowing to go outside, it was squarely on me for losing track of how much time we had spent running around the house playing without a break, and I let him out of my sight for a minute. Since then no problems, and I can leave him unsupervised for short amounts of time in our "dog room."

She is on a feeding schedule(2 1 cups twice a day *morning and evening*), taken outside at the 30min mark after feeding/drinking. then every 3hrs after that**when im off**. She is able to hold it for that long easily.
If she still pees in the house then no, she is not always able to hold it that long. Just because a dog can hold it for X number of hours once, doesn't mean that they can always be expected to hold it for a long time every time. And they're able to hold it much longer while at rest or sleeping, just like we can. The schedule you describe sounds suitable for an adult dog's day, not so much a puppy. I would take her out more often, and then wait until you have at least a solid week of success (zero accidents inside) before you start to lengthen the time between trips again.
 

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Smacking a four month old puppy for going in the house would be like me spitting in your face every time your blinked. You can't control blinking, you don't even notice blinking unless I point it out, but I'll teach you not to blink! Why are you pissed off that I spit on you? I'm not contagious for anything. You must unreasonable.
 

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if the puppy is messing/weeing in the house its YOUR fault, i know you dont want to hear that but its true i learnt this on this site when i got my first puppy. once you start second guessing your pups needs (which by the way i hnad to do as he didnt give ANY signals he wanted to go outside) then the accidents will get less and disappear.
my dog is 18mths, still mouths on occasion and is an all round looney. one of his sisters is the same as him (they both took ,longer to house train) but the others are model dogs. as has been said above, all dogs are different as are kids. kids crawl round putting things in their mouths, thjats how they learn, pups do the same.
i understand your need to vent, ive done it ,loads on here :)
 

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Biting - See the Sticky: The Bite Stops Here in the new owner section

Also:

Tweaks to Bite Inhibition (Sticky:The Bite Stops Here ... Using Ouch or Yelp!)
1. When the pup bites, then yelp. It should sound about like what the pup does when you step on its paw...don't step on her paw for a sample :). When you yelp, the pup should startle briefly and stop nipping. Praise and pet. SHe'll bite again.
2. When she bites the second time, Yelp. When she stops, praise and pet. SHe'll nip again, although it may be a little gentler. ...
3. When she bites a third time, Yelp (see a pattern?). But this time, turn your back for 15 - 30 secs. If she comes around and play bows or barks, then that is an apology. Accept it, (This is important) praise and pet... and cringe in expectation of the next nip...
4. When she bites the 4th time, Yelp, then leave the area, placing her in a 2 min. time-out. It is better if you can leave, rather than moving her. Then, return and interact. (SHe's still hungry...)
5. When she nips the fifth time, yelp, and leave the area, stopping interaction for now.

Immediately after you yelp (in this case), you should notice that the second nip is a bit gentler... not enough, but a bit.

Dogs need to sleep over night in order to learn their lessons. So, keep doing this for 3 days. By the third day, you should notice significant Bite Inhibition. SHe may still nip, but it will be softer and she won't draw blood. Keep up the training and make sure that everyone yelps.... Very powerful method.

If you learn the technique, then you can apply the "yelp" to other circumstances, also. I believe that "yelp" is "Please don't do that, I don't like it." in dog communication. For example, I used the Yelp method to shape an energetic Tug with very well-defined rules, yelping when my dog broke the rules.
 

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Here's the deal: puppies don't have full physical control of their bladders til 6 months of age, give or take. That is just a physical thing. They don't have it. SO, the possibility for accidents is THERE because they don't have that muscular development yet. Puppies that have been "100%" potty trained BEFORE 6 months usually means they have an owner that gets them out on time so that they PREVENT accidents. It doesn't mean the puppy has super bladder control powers, it just means the owner is PREVENTING accidents by getting them out when they need it.

Very young puppies don't even KNOW when they have to pee/poop in the beginning. It's like human babies, they just go in their diapers whenever, without really knowing it. As puppies age, they start to get the feeling that they need to go, they just don't really have the ability to control their bladder long enough to wait for you to get them out.
You see, there's a disconnect between what puppies UNDERSTAND and what they are CAPABLE of doing physically. So, potty training a puppy is really more about YOU doing it right to help bridge the gap for the puppy until the puppy is old enough to have the physical ability they need to hold it.

Now, on to "old fashioned" punishment. First, a month of positive is NOTHING. It's a drop in the bucket. In that month the puppy is still getting used to it's new home and your new rules. Then, on top of that, you are training it. That's a lot for a new puppy to take in. So, yes, training in one month is way too much to expect.

Old fashioned potty training can backfire. Your puppy may not seem afraid of you, BUT by smacking (even if you aren't hurting her) you are showing her that you get angry when you see pee/poop. That's it. You're not TEACHING her that she's supposed to go outside, you're just showing her pee/poop makes you angry.

Now, a human being would make the connection that, because you get angry when you see pee/poop it must mean that it's WRONG to pee/poop inside, and they should start doing it outside. However, puppies aren't human beings and their cognitive process is different. So, when you smack, scold, and point her nose to the mess, she isn't making the same connection a human would. What she gets out of it is, you don't like pee/poop so she may start HIDING it, or REFUSING to go in front of you because she doesn't like when you get mad.

PREVENTION is the key. The more you can PREVENT, the more likely she will be to assume that you just don't go pee/poop inside. You just don't give her the option. Tether her to you with her leash so she isn't out of your sight (when she's out of the crate) and anytime she makes a move away from playing or sleeping, take her out. Take her out way more than you think you should. PREVENT, don't give her the chance to have an accident.

She is a baby. Believe it or not, it's up to you. Why ask for advice about whether or not you're expecting too much, and then come back and say she's NOT too young, you've seen all her litter mates be potty trained AND they don't bite......
 
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