Training without treats. Help.

You can 'sit on the dog' to get the behavior. I leashed my restless stinker and sat down with a book and waited. He eventually lay down. I do use food and tossed a bit away from him so he had to get up. Rinse and repeat using the cue word when I could see him starting to lay down. With a pup you might want to work in a small closed space like a bathroom or hall so leash isn't chewed on. If he won't take treats then perhaps reward him with a short game of ball or tug. Pup lays down, happy talk and toy comes out all in the same second. Play for maybe 15-30 seconds, put toy away and wait for him to lay down again. I'm a terrible lurer but suppose you could use a toy to lure into position as well. Dogs work hard for a toy reward for recall as well. He has to have some interest in toys as well of course. Does he? I think I'm a great reward. Play keep away. He probably have fun at first then start to worry about you being away from him so allow him to catch you and give him loads of love and maybe a short game. Around the kitchen table works well, hiding around corners works well.

Do train before meals. I used to use dinner kibble for training during the day and leftovers were served at meal time. Keep sessions extremely short. I take 1" chunk of string cheese and when it is gone session is over. That's maybe 20 rewards per session. You might take a small handful of kibble and once gone session is over. Oh, rolled treats are way more delicious than ones handed to them. Get the behavior then tell him to get it as you roll the bit away from him.

Drilling is demotivating for all the dogs I've had. Would love a dog that would drill so I could practice my skills! Once you get a couple good responses move. Turn around, change your position, move to another room and so on. If he is really worried about this he might stop taking food. My dogs slow down the response I'm looking for, throw other behaviors at me and wander off if they are upset by drilling.

I had a dog that actively hated hot dogs. Empty your cupboards and refrigerator looking for something he likes. Try bits off your plate too. With dog tethered to me with a waist leash I even rewarded good leash manners with a straw dipped in my frappuccino whipped cream one time. Not good for the dog or me but he probably got 1 measuring teaspoon of that cream total. Dogs can eat most things we do but never raisins/grapes, chocolate, macadamia nuts, anything with xylitol or onion/garlic. I'm sure I have forgotten some. Remember his size and adjust the amount you feel safe. If he gets a hundred calories of treats then reduce his kibble by that amount to avoid gut issues and keep him trim.

If you are trying to train when pup is distracted move to a more boring place. I closed off the hall, bathroom can be another good spot.

Be happy. Lots of happy baby talk, praise him to the skies when he sits or gives you attention. If you don't feel a complete fool you aren't being silly enough. Yes getting him to be a well trained dog can be life or death but training him has to be a bonding happy experience.

shabess said:

With over 50 years experience training dogs I have never used treats.....ever. They're dogs, not seals. You'll get far better results much quicker by making the training fun and enjoyable. Make it something that the dog wants to do as an activity, and if you're having fun, so is the dog.

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Hate to break it to you, but for the majority of pet dogs out there... training with treats can be fun and enjoyable. You can even combine food with play at times. Dogs are not seals, but they are both animals that follow the rules of operant conditioning, and are (mostly) strongly motivated to eat.

I don't disagree with the advice of using play and toys to engage a dog. I highly recommend that and it is the most reinforcing thing for some dogs. But this comment is not particularly helpful to the majority of pet dog owners out there.

To the OP, the key is to use whatever your dog likes. If your dog likes his kibble but not human food, by all means use his kibble. If he likes toys, use toys. If he likes other dogs, believe it or not you can even use other dogs... Anything that happens within a couple seconds of letting him play is rewarded (I usually wait out for eye contact). Luring is also not the only way to teach a dog to lie down. Look up "capturing" and "shaping" for more ideas.

@Canyx

I agree. My dog likes to play, but the moment I get involved he loses interest and usually just lays down watching me. I played for an hour with his favorite stuffed alligator and his ball, but he just watched me. I was down on the floor rolling around with it, but nothing. I have tried teaching him tug of war, but no luck.

I have tried using his kibble as a reward. I held back two feedings and still he wouldn't take it from my hand. I knew he was hungry he kept sniffing at his food bowl. He eventually threw up stomach acid. I fed him to avoid the start of ulcers. The moment the food was in the bowl he ate without hesitating. So he will not take anything from my hand even if he is hungry. I plan on getting a small bag of beef liver and seeing what that does. If nothing I plan on seeing if shredded chicken does the trick.

He learned to sit because if you ran your hand along his back to his tail upon reaching his tail he would sit and I praised him for it every time he did it while simultaneously saying sit with hand gesture. He will now sit with just the use of hand gesture or the word. He will not willingly come to me any other time than when coming out of his crate.

If anyone has suggestions on what I can do about this please I am all ears.

I will NOT use chocolate or Garlic in any form. You are playing with fire using that as a treat or anywhere they can get to it.

My dogs are ravenous beasties and eat anything remotely edible but rolling the food so it is like a hunt makes it lots more fun.

Almost sounds like he needs to be tamed. What happens if you play bow to him and pretend to run away? What happens if you sit on the floor and roll treats away from him? I used to play with Max like he was a kitten. Use a long toy or toy tied to a string and jerk it like it is a mouse. I'd sit on the floor and have it go around me. He would play that way but couldn't fetch or tug yet.

I accidently claimed gopher holes by showing them to my dogs. They would back off and let me have it. Not what I intended at all. Perhaps when you play with his toy he is thinking the same thing?

How old is he? How long have you had him? Any history that might explain why he is so shut down and reserved?

The chocolate and garlic thing is because people are stupid. You tell them chocolate isn't all that bad and they decide to use chocolate chips to train. After my first dog got really sick even after throwing up and huge amount of milk chocolate I am wary of it. It took me years before I stopped lunging to get dropped chocolate chips away from her.