Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
395 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I'm not planning on getting an Aussie anytime soon... at least not for several years. ;-) But meanwhile, I'd like to know what Toy and Mini Aussies are, because I can't find any information for them.

I thought that they were very undersized dogs of one breed, like "teacup" Yorkies, Poms, etc... And then I found something that suggested that they are actually separate breeds (like the giant, standard, and toy schnauzers). I'm just terribly confused and curious as to what exactly they are. I don't condone breeding undersized dogs, and if that's what it is... it's just so frustrating. :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,846 Posts
From what I understand they are not a seperate breed. They are what backyard breeders and puppymills produce to make a buck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
395 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
See, that's exactly what I thought, until I found someone showing a so-called "Toy Australian Shepherd" in a show... that's why I was confused. I just want to know why people need to have something that is smaller than it's supposed to be, or why they need to make more "breeds".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
442 Posts
Toys are mixed with something smaller , Ive seen a couple online now and looked like a Pap/Aussie cross , not appealing , to me anyways . 'Mini's arent so mini , they are two reg Aussies of slightly smaller size , bred. Mine was suppose to be a mini and he's 20" already :eek: :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,072 Posts
Mini Aussies are for me, one of the breeds that's in a grey area.

There ARE people who have created an active breed club and breed standards. And there are people using smaller, stnadard Aussies to breed down slowly.

HOWEVER, there's also the papillon and toy-breed crosses, and the fact that I have yet to meet a Mini Aussie with nice temperament- all the ones I've met have been very shy. For me, it would have to be taken on a case by case basis. Does the breeder do their health testing and has there been health testing further back in the pedigree? Title their dogs (there's no reason they shouldn't be titling in agility; if they're breeding for 'city aussie' temperament (which I *don't* approve of), I'd expect to see TDIs in addition to that. Do they breed a reasonable amount? (Whatever that is for you - I like to see someone who has been breeding long enough and produced enough litters that I have lots of available references and can see proof that their get are titling- also that they have a wide sample size to see if any health problems are going to pop up, but conversely NOT someone who is putting out so many ppuppies they cannot track them all individually.) Do they require a lifetime return, and am I confident that they are going to be around if I need them 5 years down the road - not just with puppy questions, but with long-term stuff? Do they have a reasonable contract that protects us both, that specifies a reasonable guarantee that I have faith they will live up to? (That also does not require things of me that I do not believe in (ie early S/N, feeding ONLY a certain food, etc.).

I'm not a mini-aussie fan, but I'm willing to conceed there may be responsible breeders of such.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,018 Posts
Toys are mixed with something smaller , Ive seen a couple online now and looked like a Pap/Aussie cross , not appealing , to me anyways . 'Mini's arent so mini , they are two reg Aussies of slightly smaller size , bred. Mine was suppose to be a mini and he's 20" already :eek: :D
Most toys look like pap crosses to me. I can't say I understand the need. If you want a small dog like that, just get a pap! They're athletic, intelligent, active.....

Okay I'm biased.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
Mini Aussies are for me, one of the breeds that's in a grey area.

There ARE people who have created an active breed club and breed standards. And there are people using smaller, stnadard Aussies to breed down slowly.

HOWEVER, there's also the papillon and toy-breed crosses, and the fact that I have yet to meet a Mini Aussie with nice temperament- all the ones I've met have been very shy. QUOTE]

I have been seeing a ton of these lately and I must say that one 10 week old mini aussie had the worste tempermant I could percieve having in such a young pup. Terrified, barking and GROWLING at all people and dogs. . .they are going to have a battle ahead of them. Another student told me last night that her 2 year old mini aussie has more energy than her border collies that she had in the past. This dog is pretty sweet and has a great desire to please. She actually does remind me of a border collie personality.

So I would have to say that I don't really understand miniturizing a breed when the smaller size has just as much, if not more, energy. That just defeats the purpose of a small dog doesn't it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,072 Posts
So I would have to say that I don't really understand miniturizing a breed when the smaller size has just as much, if not more, energy. That just defeats the purpose of a small dog doesn't it?
That depends. There's plenty of folks (Laurelin and I would both fall into that catagory) who really LIKE energetic small dogs. Lizzie is as energetic as anyone could want! (Right now, she is hanging (by her teeth) from her squeak-on-a-string that is hanging from the coat hook by the door.) She's 13 pounds and 14" and perfect. I really LIKE small drivey dogs, adn from that aspect, I like the IDEA of Mini Aussies - but I just don't see the point when the parent breed isn't exactly huge to begin with (most of the Aussies I used to meet before the breed became so popular were only 21" or so) and when there are already SO many things that have to be carefully balanced. Aussie temperaments can be so weird and iffy; they've got a fair number of health things to watch - I just don't see the point, overall. If you want a 14" merle dog? Get a Pyrshep or a Sheltie!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,018 Posts
I agree with Cait 100%. I like my small dogs to have just as much drive and energy as my larger dogs. It does not defeat the purpose of a small dog, I chose the small dog breed I did because I want one that is energetic. Pyrsheps, paps, shelties, etc are all in that direction and happen to be some of my favorite breeds. And that's not even touching some of the small terriers like Jacks or Patterdales, which are some energetic drivey little things.

I agree that mini aussies are in the grey area. I have seen a few breeders that might be considered reputable. Most are not and I have never seen a toy Aussie breeder that I'd consider reputable. (However, I haven't looked all that much). The ASCA is against toy/mini aussie breeding.

Smooth pyrsheps are one breed that often gets overlooked. If you get a merle smooth dog, they look quite a bit like mini aussies. The temperament is a little different (I hear them described as in between Aussie and sheltie) and they face the same issues most herders do (fear, shyness, etc) but they're a great, crazy energetic little breed. They're on my list of 'one day'. I looked into them for my next dog, but they're just so hard to find now. I *could* find one and talked to a couple breeders but I'd have to wait a while for a smooth and I dont' particularly want a rough.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
Sorry, I mispoke. I know that purpose of small dogs is not to be low energy, but I think the purpose of breeding to minitarize a breed is to make it a better house hold companion by making it smaller. Why not stick with the original dog instead of breeding the runts when you are only changing the size and not the suitablity (is that a word?:D) for apartment life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,131 Posts
With the toy aussies you eather go to a responcible breeder or you get a mutt being sold as a toy aussie that is pritty black and white.

As of this time there are no reputable kennel clubs that recognize either the mini or the toy.

for the toy there are a lot of "fake" dog shows being put on by small groups of people and putting "fake" CH on their dogs.

It's easier to come by a responcible mini aussie breeder because they have been bred longer and they have their own reputable breed club that they show their dogs in.

But I personally would stay away from any breed like that simply because of the extreme amount of controversy you would be getting into.

Some Mini Aussie breeders claim the mini aussie is just a size variation of the Australian Shepherd
Other mini aussie breeders claim the two are completly different breeds.

One thing is for sure. in order for the AKC, UKC, ect. to recognize a breed by the name of "Miniature Australian Shepherd" the "Australian Sepherd" would have to get a standard size written into it's breed standard (Kinda like the Standard poodle) as of this time there is NO "Standard Australian Shepherd" breed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
73 Posts
Don't get me started on this subject.
There is no reason to down size any breed.
Aussies are a working breed if you want a lap dog get another breed.
There are some people showing Mini/Toy in IABCA Int'l shows.
http://www.iabca.com/index.html
Mini's were the North American Shepherd for a while,but then they went to mini Aussie.
ASCA/AKC and UKC will not register a dog as a mini.
When looking at mini pedigrees you will find an Aussie 1 or 2 generations back.
One can not be and Aussie and a Mini at the same time.
If you like Aussies then get an Aussie not a mini or a Toy..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
73 Posts
I have nothing against the IABCA shows I have been to a few,and will be showing my new puppy in that venue.
It is like UKC the CH was easy,but it is a fun a different venue to show in.
But there should be no one showing Aussies in a mini and toy.I would hate to see this done to Rottweilers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,072 Posts
I have nothing against the IABCA shows I have been to a few,and will be showing my new puppy in that venue.
It is like UKC the CH was easy,but it is a fun a different venue to show in.
But there should be no one showing Aussies in a mini and toy.I would hate to see this done to Rottweilers.
No, but IABCA's principle basically seems to be, give us a breed standard to judge by and we'll judge your dog on it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
73 Posts
That way,
and even if you take a third in your class you can still get a V-1 and become a CH.
Plus it cost a lot more money to show in IABCA shows and you have to pay for you title..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,072 Posts
That way,
and even if you take a third in your class you can still get a V-1 and become a CH.
Plus it cost a lot more money to show in IABCA shows and you have to pay for you title..
You can still get the rating lower than that if the judges hvae the guts to withold ribbons. That's a problem with the judges though, not the system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
395 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I feel slightly out of the loop. I'm not really familiar with all of those different showing organizations. I'm only familiar with the UKC, CKC, and AKC...

But according to what you're saying, a mini is just a small Aussie and a toy is bred with a pap? How odd. I actually didn't see any pap in "toy" Aussies... but I find it strange. I mean, it has its allure, but it doesn't sound like anything that is that exceptional to me. If I ever go to a breeder to get another dog again, it'll be either a sheltie or just a regular Aussie. Mmhm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,075 Posts
The whole "mini / toy aussie" thing is very big in our area. There are several in our agility classes at the dog club, usually from about 3 breeders within a day's drive. Every one of the dogs we've met is has a very undesirable temperment. They are flighty, lack concentration, do not perform or seem to have the inate intelligence / instinct that regular aussies have. We had a regular aussie several years ago so we are familiar with the breed as a whole.

My DD was attracted to the looks of mini aussies so she did a lot of research into the breed. And we couldn't really find any reputable breeder that would suggest a mini aussie breeder that they knew. There are many people breeding them, and are responsible breeders of some other breeds, but it is not highly recommended to get a mini from them. Most of the info we found looked like breeders are either breeding runt to runt (so that they can claim their lines are "pure" aussie, adn runt to runt is a BAD thing to do) or they are using a small breed dog like the paps to get the size down to "toy" standards, so those are not pure aussies. Apparently one person in our dog club did a DNA test on a mini aussie in the group (the owner was convinced that it was sold to him as pure aussie) and found not only papillon but sheltie in the mix.

So in the end it doesn't look like a reputable breed at the moment. Some of them are darn cute though.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top