Thoughts on this Easy Raw Dog Food recipe?

Google the supplement complete nutritional analysis. Maybe it fills the holes in nutrition that beef, egg and rice have, maybe not. My mathfu is far too weak at the moment to figure this out. I can tell you that my 35 pound dog needed just about what an adult human needs in most minerals and vitamins packed into 600 calories. Perhaps YOUR mathfu is strong enough to translate the Dinovite analysis per serving plus the right amount of the beef, egg and rice for a medium sized dog into mg of all that to see if scaling up or down would work for your dog.

Beef, egg and rice is low in magnesium by about half, zinc and iron are almost right, magnesium is about 1/3, copper is very low, riboflavin is low, thiamine is low, manganese is about 1/4 and phosphorus is about 1/2 the required amount off the top of my head. Forgot phosphorus, it is about 75% of RDA

Ooops, be careful. I've always fed raw since the 50's and have degrees in Animal Sciences and during my working years was a member of a 4 man research team doing research on wild and domestic canines concentrating on nutrition. Don't get me wrong. raw is awesome I would never feed manufactured food to any dog since I know what's in it and where it comes from. However, having said that there is a saying that goes 'feeding raw has to be better.' Not always because a lot of raw diets do not take this into consideration. BV. Biologic Value. In laymans terms it means the intake of nutrients is being used for what it is meant for. For example; If the Biologic Value is wrong (below 30) the nutrient intake is used for energy alone, not muscle building or bone structure. In other words it gets burned off in calories. In order for a diet to be effective the BV has to be above 70, and looking at this link this diet is miles off. I'm sorry to say this but this guy has jumped on the raw bandwagon without doing any research at all.

shabess, I just asked if you fed your wolf raw *lol* clearly! How many pounds is it, and how many pounds of food does it get? Bone vs meat, vs...carbs?

How did you determine what percentage each dog gets? I had found a pdf on canine nutrition that I thought looked reasonable, but it is just a start on this path for me. You make a good point about the BV. There is a lot to think of when taking this on, since we're not having these animals in the wild, but in our care. It was saying a good diet was 30% protein, 20% fats, and 50% carbs...which I initially thought that was a LOT of carbs for a dog. I thought it was clearly mimicking the manufactured diet...of which i am sure uses the cheapest stuff they can, which also means less of the expensive, and more solid stuff, like protein.
We've been kind of playing it by ear as to what each dog seems to need. The old beagle hasn't changed weight, and the basset looks a little leaner, but more muscled (he's been playing with the puppy though) and of course the puppy is my huge concern because he is growing! We've been afraid to go off of manufactured diet with him. With all of them, in total, because what if we're wrong? :/
The pup got fat for a few weeks on his kibble, and right when we switched to the home cooked, he used that up and looks perfect. But of course I still worry.

Ok here's the thing with protein, which has in fact caused outright wars, one of them between myself and these pet food companies, and the A.A.F.C.O. The A.A.F.C.O. in it's infinite wisdom states (Merck Veterinary Manual as reference) somewhere around page 1620, 'provided the percentage of protein meets minimum requirements it will pass inspection. However, the TYPE of protein used doesn't matter, ( could be anything including old boot leather) and we don't give a damn where it comes from. That's not a quote but you get the idea. Canada has the same idea, CVMA (Canadian Veterinary Medical Association) which follows the same rules as the A.A.F.C.O. In other words you can add anything you like, and I have actually done it. I produced a ton of dog food at a cost of $130, which is about the same as most pay, and take a guess where the protein came from, this will make you sick. Chicken droppings. The amount met minimum requirements and I wasn't even asked where it came from. I didn't sell it of course I burnt it and spread it over my garden, make wonderful fertilizer. This is the pet food industry, this is what they do day in and day out. I have the complete list of requirements for both cats and dogs as stated by the A.A.F.C.O., and if I fed that to any dog, or my wolf for that matter, it would kill her. My wolf by the way is named Dusty, she's 14 years old, weighs in at about 140 pounds and believe me she's a bruiser. Her sister was in a zoo as a captive wolf (I won't say the name of the zoo) but at 9 months old she died through being fed a diet containing Ethoxiquin.
On to Biologic Value. Kathyy is correct, so is jaleely. The adding of rice drops the BV down to almost nothing. (lamb and rice formulas proved that). jaleely is quite correct in saying that protein provides energy and BV means the animal is getting enough to store for later use. Ok, so if the AVERAGE BV in any commercial food is no more than 15 ( most are even less than that) where's the energy coming from? The BV in Dusty's food is a whopping 92 and at 14 can out run most greyhounds. More to come.

Oh for heaven's sake. I hate big business. GAG. Greedy. And so now BB is a second-hand product for them. What a JOKE. Grrrr.
Ought to sue them for all of their false advertising and my wasted money.

@Kathyy i don't know what you mean with "BV meat of 97 + egg of 100 + rice of near zero add up to zero?" 100% of the food is made up of egg, meat and rice. However the biological value would only equal the content of egg, and meat. I don't know the percentage of rice a dog can actually digest, but it is probably very little, like 1%. The rest is just fiber or not really anything (so fiber lol). What's fun is there are some great videos on youtube on how the digestion and stores of things in the body work...there aren't that many on dogs, but you can find a generic. Dogs actually have a very different digestive system than humans.

Feed them a variety of fresh meats
Sticking to just one food source is the route to nutritional deficiency and illness. Like us, dog’s cannot thrive on one particular food alone, they need a variety of items to cover their nutritional bases. They cannot be fed tripe every day, a scavenging carnivore needs a range of food sources to get everything they need. It would be like humans just eating one type of vegetable, likewise, we need to vary our food sources to cover our nutritional needs.

I usually watch "Crash Course Biology" from when I was in classes. However, this link shows a very informative presentation on canines specifically. I honestly think everyone should watch the first two minutes. Or, at least skip the first few seconds and watch until 2:35
(I don't know who it is, lol) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gIRXseV0sQ

This is a good article: https://www.dogsfirst.ie/raw-faq/can-dogs-have-too-much-protein/

"Feed them a variety of fresh meats.
For a dog this entails plenty of different meats, organs, cartilage and bone. Eyes and spleen and adrenal glands. Skin and likely a bit of hair. Cut these out and bits the dog needs to build and maintain his own organs and conduct a normal digestive process are being cut out to. This is how canine nutrition works."

Whoa!! look at the source of the utube link and tell me what this persons vested interest is? selling her product and filling you full of crap. Marketing marketing marketing that's all it is. Now read this, and this is from someone who has no vested interest whatsoever in anything at all save revealing the truth.

Digestion.

Digestion is the name given to the chemical process whereby food that has been eaten is broken down into simpler compounds which can be used by the body as sources of energy, for growth, maintenance or tissue repair. In mammals, digestion takes place in the digestive, or alimentary tract, which can vary, but in the case of the dog and cat it is a simple monogastric system, found in carnivores and omnivores. This basic system is capable of handling most foodstuffs with the exception of some plant materials such as cellulose. This is one of the reasons for the more complicated digestive system found in herbivores such as the cow.

The three components of foods which require digestion are;

1. Carbohydrates

2. Fats

3. Proteins.

Table 1 shows their basic structure and result of their digestion. The chemical process by which this is achieved is called ‘hydrolysis’ (splitting by water) and the rate at which it occurs is increased by organic catalysts, which are chemicals which promote the nessesary reactions but are not changed themselves. These are called enzymes and are synthesized by the body. The other nutrients (minerals, vitamins and water) are absorbed more or less in the form in which they are found in the food.

Table 1. Structure of nutrients

Carbohydrates

Protein

Fats


polysaccharides

disaccharides

monosaccharides

Protein



neutral fat

monosaccharides

simple sugars

peptides

Amino acids

glycerol

Fatty acids

Some glycercides

The digestive tract.

Whether you are and earthworm or an eel, a duck or a dog, your digestive tract can be considered to be a long, hollow tube, parts of which have evolved to have a specialized structure and function. The ‘tube’ begins at the mouth and continues via the oesophagus to the stomach, on to the small and large intestine, and finally to the rectum, where waste matter is stored before its evacuation. Each of these sections will be considered in order. font>

Food enters the digestive system at the mouth. In many animals, chewing begins the physical breakdown of food before it is swallowed, but dogs are well known for ‘bolting’ their meals and in some breeds little chewing takes place. However, by virtue of their well developed cheek, or carnassial teeth, dogs are well equipped for chewing, cutting and crushing. For although they are not obligatory meat eaters, they still have the dentition associated with the carnivorous way of life.

The other important structures found in connection with the mouth are the salivary glands. These are stimulated to secrete saliva by the smell and taste of food and are responsible for the dribbling and lip smacking often seen at meal times. Saliva contains mucus, which is a much more effective lubricant than water in aiding swallowing. In some animals, the starch digesting enzyme Amylase (pryalin) is present in saliva, but in the dog the contribution to digestion is negligible.

Swallowing transfers the food to the oesophagus, through which it passes to the stomach in a few seconds. A wave motion called ‘peristalsis’ pushes the food towards the stomach and prompts the relaxation of the muscle which usually constricts the oesophagus immediately before the stomach and except in vomiting, prevents regurgitation of stomach contents into the oesophagus. No enzymes are added as the food passes between the mouth and the stomach, but the cells lining the oesophagus add more mucus to ease movement.

The stomach has several functions. It is a storage organ, allowing food to be taken in as meals rather than continuously. It is a muscular mixing bag when further digestive enzymes are added and incorporated, and it is a regulator valve which controls the rate of flow into the small intestine.

Functionally, the stomach can be divided into two parts; the cardiac and the pyloric regions. The cardiac region is the largest. It has elastic walls to accommodate storage of large quantities of food and its muscosa (lining and underlying tissue) contains many glands which secrete enzymes, hydrochloric acid and muscus. Digestion of protein begins here.

Protein digesting enzymes called protease’s, require an acid environment in which to function effectively and this is provided by the secretion of hydrochloric acid. However, the stomach consists largely of protein itself; so as protection from the activity of the enzymes it secretes a continuous stream of muscus to coat its walls. The secretion of acid, muscus and enzyme depends on the composition and quantity of food eaten and is required by both hormones and nerves.

Mixing peristaltic waves originate in the cardiac area of the stomach, gradually increasing in strength as they reach the pyloric sector. The pyloric region is the most muscular part of the stomach, where food is thoroughly mixed with the digestive juices that have been secreted. By this stage, the mixture is a thick milky liquid called chyme.

The rate at which the stomach releases chyme into the first part of the small intestine, the duodenum, is influenced by several factors, allowing optimum conditions for digestion. The mechanisms are basically very simple.

At the far end of the pyloric region of the stomach is a muscular ring called the ‘pyloric sphincter’, which, when stimulated by very strong peristaltic waves, relaxes to allow the passage of food. The presence of acids, irritants, fats and chyme in the duodenum inhibit the peristaltic waves, and thereby reduce the rate of emptying. When chyme is very liquid it moves more easily through the sphincter and therefor when the contents of the stomach are well mixed and fluid, they are allowed into the small intestine, particularly if there is nothing there already.

In the duodenum, more enzymes are added to the chyme. Most of these originate from the pancreas, a very important organ which releases enzymes and sodium bicarbonate into the gut and also insulin into the blood stream to control the blood sugar levels.

The sodium bicarbonate neutralizes the acid chyme and provides the right functional environment for the pancreatic and intestinal enzymes, which include amalase for carbonate digestion, lipase for fat digestion, and some more proteses to continue protein digestion. Regulation of pancreatic enzyme output is largely under the control of two hormones called ‘secretin’ and ‘pancreozymin’ secreted from cells in the wall of the duodenum and small intestine.

Bile from the gall bladder enters through the duodenum through a duct that, in the dog, is sometimes shared with that of the pancreas. Bile salts are not enzymes but detergents which emulsify fat by splitting it into tiny globules upon which the lipase’s can then act. They also aid in the absorption of the fat soluble vitamins A,E,D and K. Bile salts are produced continuously by the liver and stored in the gall bladder until required to digest fat.

The small intestine takes its name from its narrow bore; although it is much longer than the large intestine, in cross section it is much smaller. It is the principal site of digestion and absorption. The surface area which absorption can take place is increased dramatically by folds and by numerous finger like projections called ‘villi’. In the average dog, this absorption area may be as large as the floor of a small room.

The absorption process may be either passive, along diffusion gradients, or active, requiring the expenditure of energy to drive ‘pumps’ and ‘carriers’. The cells of the small intestine wall also produce enzymes which complete the process of digestion, and there are mucus cells performing a similar protective function to those of the stomach.

The products of digestion, amino acids, peptides and sugars are absorbed directly into the blood stream via the capillaries in the villus, to be transfered later to the blood stream.

Little of the food taken in at the mouth ever reaches the large intestine. In this part of the gut, water is absorbed and in the caecum some fermentation of cellulose (plant fibre) occurs. It is the production of gas as a result of this process that is often responsible for flatulence.

Faeces consist of water (normally about 70%), undigested food, some inorganic material and dead bacteria from the large intestine. They are stored in the rectum until an appropriate evactuation time.

This is off my website by the way and I'm not selling anything.

@shabess I don't know the maker of that video, and I wasn't saying to buy the product. Didn't even pay attention to that part. lol
She is correct in the simple, 3 minute lecture on dog digestion. She is saying what you are saying, except it's easier for people to understand. It was literally the first one i found that had good info. If there is a better one without product placement, you bet! Let's find it! lol I just didn't have more than a few minutes to search.

The point of it is, dogs need more protein than dry kibble can provide. They have different digestion than other mammals.

@lizzy25 What brand of grinds are you feeding? I looked up "Primal" as just one example. As you can see, it is not enough protein for any canine. If you feed a diet of only 18% protein for years for your dog, they will not be healthy. That's all that really needs to be taken away from, in this. These grinds are mostly bone. That is just not nutrition. Dogs need protein, and fats. Some fiber, very little carb. They do not need all of that calcium, and in fact, that can cause very horrible kidney stones.


" Primal RAW FROZEN GRIND BEEF FORMULA
INGREDIENTS:
Beef Heart, Beef Liver, Ground Beef Bone.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein (min) 15%
Crude Fat (min) 13%
Crude Fiber (max) 1%
Moisture (max) 70%
Ash (max) 2%

ADDITIONAL PRODUCT INFORMATION:
Beef 100%
Produce 0%
Supplements 0%
Organic Ingredients 0%
Organ Meat 9%
Bone Content 9%
CA-to-P ratio 1:1

NUTRITIONAL FACTS
Calories: 57 per oz.

Carbohydrates: 0.7%

You are likely comparing dry weight protein to the wet grind. Primal and other commercial grinds have added water so not as dense as whole meats but you would be feeding the dog about as much protein as would be in a meaty kibble. Taking out all but 20% of the water protein content goes up to 30%. Kibble has 10% water and I'm leaving in 20%, not perfect but good enough to compare.

I went through Max's nutrition needs. He needed about 2 grams of various minerals a day contained in about 300 grams of wet or 100 grams dry weight which is about the same as this grind. There was 59 grams of protein in one particular beef/pork/sardine/chicken foot/liver/kidney recipe which came to over 1.5 grams protein per pound of dog. It was about 20% protein by wet weight and 59% by dry weight with the remainder of the calories fat minus .8 grams of carbohydrate mostly from the liver glycogen. He tended towards 'fluffy' so needed a lower fat diet and fewer calories to stay trim.

It is quite easy to protein starve a dog on raw. Feed a lot of 70% 'lean' hamburger or other fatty meats and done. 70% 'lean' only has 14 grams of protein with a whopping 30 grams of fat in 100 grams. I would only be able to give Max 200 grams of that junk. 28 grams of protein clearly would be a problem but this primal isn't it.

So, for the beef HVM here, it states No carbs. I don't know what they think blueberries, apples and cranberries have in them. Not to mention the rest of the vegetables.
( BTW I'm not trying to poke holes, I'm trying to learn about it too : )

It states 1609 kcal/kg (about 730 calories per POUND according to this calculator http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/kcal_lbkcal_kg.php)

That means, in order for the dog to get 1609 calories it needs to eat 1 kg of food a day. (1 pound for 730)
I'll have to go back to crummy American for this because that's just what i know best, lol
So my 55 lb basset hound requires 1500 calories a day (about right, and can be seen on this chart http://tails.co/requirements.html)

He would have to eat two pounds of food a day, or so, to get enough calories. NOW this still does not mean biological value. This just means calories. Those are made up of fats, protein, fiber, sugars, etc. SO this does not mean he is getting enough PROTEIN. Dogs do not store and process much of this food...they need the protein and fats most. And, this says that in 1 pound, the dog is only getting 18% protein. Dogs truly need closer to 30%-50%, depending on age and metabolism.
Therefore this is just simply not the correct nutrition. It's just what looks good on paper, and, this is the most important thing....this is an OLD AND OUTDATED reference for what dogs need to survive. 18% is what the big dog food manufactures decided dogs need, NOT actually what dogs need. It just fit their production. THAT is what needs to change.

Now, it's correct that added water will change the weight. But that should make it even more clear that what you'd be feeding the dog then, is water. Far LESS nutrients and just FOOD. You'd need more and more to get a higher caloric value.
And, as stated, caloric value is different than biologic value.

There are tons of ways to google this information, this is just the first i chose. "The Biological Value (BV) is a scale of measurement used to determine what percentage of a given nutrient source is utilized by the body. The scale is most frequently applied to protein sources. Biological Value is derived from providing a measure intake of protein, then determining the nitrogen uptake versus nitrogen excretion. The theoretical highest BV of any food source is 100%. In short - BV refers to how well and how quickly your body can actually use the protein you consume.
The BV is particularly used in protein, as the body can not store excess amino acids (other main nutrients, such as fat and carbohydrates can be stored by the body). The daily diet should thus always provide enough protein, and protein of the proper quality, to fulfill the need of the body." (http://www.food-info.net/uk/protein/bv.htm)

This is any health, nutritional, and some biology text books (so no fussing over web pages lol).

The bottom line is that it's too expensive for companies to really put the proper nutrition into dog food, so they just don't do it.

Again, just looking at any diagram of a dogs digestive anatomy versus a humans, shows why it is essential that they need protein, and more of it. Compared to us, they have very fast digestion, in a short digestive tract. Just that in itself says they need more of what's valuable, so they can have a chance to absorb it!
That is why 18% is just NOT enough.
Another proof, is remember how dogs cannot eat certain foods, or they get poisoned? That is because their body is made to eat prmarally protein. Excess of these foods will kill them, because their body cannot metabolize it. It's not meant to. So it's pretty silly to feed your dog tons of veggies, fruits, grains, etc. It is a waste of food. They will gain NOTHING from it, except as maybe fiber...meaning, stuff that helps move the poo out because it literally has no other value.
(here's an okay page with diagrams http://pawcastle.com/human-canine-digestive-system/)

Actually....This is a short, to the point video...that is the BEST I'VE SEEN so far in my search. Please, I encourage all of you who glance at this to please watch. I don't know who this Vet is, but he is RIGHT.
https://youtu.be/2S39_fo7-Xo

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From "top quality dog food page"
https://www.topqualitydogfood.com/beef-hvm

Moisture Maximum: 82%
Protein (crude) Minimum: 17%
Fat (crude) Minimum: 8%
Fiber (crude) Maximum: .20%
Ash 2.16%
Carbohydrates None
Calories 1607 Kcal/kg
Calcium 0.03%

Ground 80/20 Beef with our Health Variety Mix (HVM). Our HVM consists of: 7% Veggie/Fruit mix,10% Beef Heart, Liver and Kidney, Organic whole eggs, NO BONE!! The vegetables and fruits consist of equal parts: Kale, Romaine Lettuce, Celery, Carrots, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Sweet Potatoes, Blueberries, Apples, and Cranberries. Weights are approximate.

There is 17% protein in 1 pound. Therefore, to get 17% protein, any dog would have to eat 1 pound of that food.
If you lowered the amount to 75 grams, which is about .6 an ounce...that means there is even less than 17% of protein.

SO we are not taking just 2.75 ounces away...or about <75 grams...... 75 grams is only 17% of the pound. Not 17% of the ingredient. Therefore, those 75 grams contain even less of the protein ingredient. Less of all of the others as well.
She'd be eating way less protein than anything she's currently eating. Also, grams and things in dry food vs wet food is drastically different. Then we're going by weight, which can include (as seen here) 82% water. Most dry kibble has about 12% water. So, you get more food value per weight, because not a lot of weight is water-weight.

It's very hard to do the math with this stuff. It's so hard for the laymen do to this for just having a dog! But, this is why big companies get away with so much. We believe them and it's easier. And, even those of us trying to fix all this are still getting confused, lol! When my hubby and I started thinking of the difference between the calories, and the weight, and the actual ingredients, it was just like.....brain melt, LOL. But it does actually add up correctly.
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[To lie out some math stuff for some: There are about 453 grams in a pound. So, 16 oz. In total, in all of that, there is only 17% of the product that is protein. So, .17 of 100, where 100 is equal to one pound...or 16 ounces. So we have to determine how many ounces of 16 (1 pound) equals .17 (17%). That is 2.72 ounces or 78 grams.]