[GottaLuvMutts]

What's November 1st?

A good percentage of the serious AR people are vegan.

And so therefore it's ok to condemn them all? Stereotype much?

 

[Willowy]

Factory farm is a term coined by the animal rights movement.

Our on the hoof meat supply in the modern day livestock production practices is cleaner, more free of disease and safer than it has ever been.

I notice you don't say more humane .

Sorry, when hogs are crammed in 2-foot-wide boxes like soup cans I'm gonna call it a factory. When poultry are kept in confinements that aren't cleaned for the entire 2 months they're in it I'm gonna call it dirty. When the only reason they can keep that many animals in one place is because of massive use of drugs. . .I don't even know what to call it. It's not sustainable and it will fail someday. When the dirt is dead from lack of crop rotation and diseases run rampant from overuse of antibiotics, I don't know what humans will do. I hope at least I'm not around for it, although it seems a crummy legacy to leave future generations.

 

[xoxluvablexox]

I would think to some extent that any vegan/vegetarian who isn't eating meat because of ethical reasons would have a judgement of meat eaters supporting something that is wrong. Obviously. Not all of them are going to shove their beliefs down everyone's throat but some people are very... pushy, I guess you could say, about their beliefs.

For those that eat those types of diets for other reasons, they could probably care less.

I eat meat. Typically my diet consist mostly of chicken and fish with very little red meat. The majority of what I eat though is veggies. Honestly, I think my diet is probably just as strict and difficult as being vegan or vegetarian because I don't eat processed foods. I don't eat high carb, it's, IMO, not something I do well on. So my pasta consist of veggie noodles. I make my own dressings, still working on my mayo consistency, and pretty much never shop at a grocery store. Local farms are my savoir lol.

As far as the vegan health thing. I don't disagree that it can have immense health benefits but I think that if you're eating white bread and pasta every day that's not going to happen. All natural,( not over processed junk) and real, nutritional food is what's healthy. Regardless of whether or not you eat meat. I do think it's worth noting that carbs and sugars are linked to health problems. Also, sticking to a diet that is extremely low in carbs, a ketogenic diet specifically, has been shown to have immense benefits for those fighting cancer. So, I'm not sure how low carb a vegan can be, in sure it's possible, but from what I've read and personally experienced in my own health since I started eating the way I do... That would probably be the healthiest way to go...

 

[JohnnyBandit]

What's November 1st?



And so therefore it's ok to condemn them all? Stereotype much?

November first is World Vegan Day.... I am not a vegan and I know that.... Lots of protests, etc on that day.

I did not and have not condemned them all.

 

[JohnnyBandit]

I notice you don't say more humane .

Sorry, when hogs are crammed in 2-foot-wide boxes like soup cans I'm gonna call it a factory. When poultry are kept in confinements that aren't cleaned for the entire 2 months they're in it I'm gonna call it dirty. When the only reason they can keep that many animals in one place is because of massive use of drugs. . .I don't even know what to call it. It's not sustainable and it will fail someday. When the dirt is dead from lack of crop rotation and diseases run rampant from overuse of antibiotics, I don't know what humans will do. I hope at least I'm not around for it, although it seems a crummy legacy to leave future generations.

Have you ever been inside a large hog operation?

Overuse of antibiotics? How do you figure. Disease is largely kept down through husbandry and cleanliness practices.
AND controlling outside influences....

Did you know that on a good number of large hog operations workers and visitors must take showers and wear clean jumpsuits provided before they get any where near the hogs?

I have been on seven or eight such operations. And I had to shower before I could tour the operation.

 

[Willowy]

I have been in hog confinements, yes. Jumpsuits, bleached shoes, no showers though. Looked inside others but not gone in. I'm not sure what counts as large in hog operations but I think around 600 per barn is what I've seen. Yes, avoidance of outside pathogens is important but they're still shoved in teeny cages they can't turn around in, and kept in those 24/7. It's not humane. Antibiotic resistance in hog farmers and around hog farms is a recognized thing. Growth-promotant antibiotics are used. There's a whole series of articles about it on the National Hog Farmer website. Not surprisingly, they claim overuse in humans is more of a problem but they don't deny that antibiotic use in pork also contributes.

 

[JohnnyBandit]

I have been in hog confinements, yes. Jumpsuits, bleached shoes, no showers though. Looked inside others but not gone in. I'm not sure what counts as large in hog operations but I think around 600 per barn is what I've seen. Yes, avoidance of outside pathogens is important but they're still shoved in teeny cages they can't turn around in, and kept in those 24/7. It's not humane. Antibiotic resistance in hog farmers and around hog farms is a recognized thing. Growth-promotant antibiotics are used. There's a whole series of articles about it on the National Hog Farmer website. Not surprisingly, they claim overuse in humans is more of a problem but they don't deny that antibiotic use in pork also contributes.

Growth promotant antibiotics? Really?



You do realize that the USDA does not allow any antibiotic residue in pork..... Right?

You also realize that there are serious consequences for growers with repeated residue.....

Humans and pets use more anti biotics than are used in animal production.

 

[Willowy]

Yeah:

http://nationalhogfarmer.com/health/nppc-growth-promotion-antibiotics-will-disappear-3-5-years

 

[OwnedbyACDs]

I notice you don't say more humane .

Sorry, when hogs are crammed in 2-foot-wide boxes like soup cans I'm gonna call it a factory. When poultry are kept in confinements that aren't cleaned for the entire 2 months they're in it I'm gonna call it dirty. When the only reason they can keep that many animals in one place is because of massive use of drugs. . .I don't even know what to call it. It's not sustainable and it will fail someday. When the dirt is dead from lack of crop rotation and diseases run rampant from overuse of antibiotics, I don't know what humans will do. I hope at least I'm not around for it, although it seems a crummy legacy to leave future generations.

Just because it's the norm in your state doesn't mean that's the way it's done everywhere. The area I live in is big on two things: beef and chicken ... And goats to a lesser extent. In fact the chicken processing plant is literally 20 minutes from us I the next town. In fact the company is an antibodic/ steroid free company that has a free range policy. They have a team of inspectors that inspect the poultry houses monthly.

Same with the beef feedlots, and no, it's not always dry here, Texas is notorious for getting a weeks worth of rain in a fee days at a time. Still no one I know who lives near a feedlot has had issues with their well.

 

[JohnnyBandit]

Yeah:

http://nationalhogfarmer.com/health/nppc-growth-promotion-antibiotics-will-disappear-3-5-years

I know what they are.... I was just amazed that you threw it out there. And doubt you can explain their true role,

 

[Willowy]

Growth-promotant antibiotics are used to improve feed efficiency apparently.

Huh, I guess the rural water system is using scare tactics to promote their product? I don't know anyone who uses their well for drinking water anymore---everyone says it's dangerous due to pesticides and feedlot runoff. Rural Water has a large "ground water protection area" that doesn't allow spraying or big animal operations.

 

[OwnedbyACDs]

I have been to chicken farms as well as hog farms and yes, it does smell in there because there are ANIMALS in there! Whenever you get a large population of any animal in one place you are goin to have smell, there is no way to avoid it, no matter how clean your practices are ... Certain animals have a smell.

Take horses for instance, I work at the track in a 100 stall barn, half the barn is our horses the other half is somebody else's ... Everyone is diligent in caring for the animals, the stalls get mucked out daily (pee taken out and everything) and "run" multiple times a day (poop taken out) and there is still a "horsey" smell when you walk through the barn.

 

[Willowy]

When the animals die from a short power outage (because the exhaust fans go out and the ammonia builds up to toxic levels), I think that's beyond "a little horsey". And when even the hog farmers won't live downwind of their own hog confinements, I think that says something .

 

[Daenerys]

I eat meat simply because I like it. I rarely eat 100% vegetarian meals (even more rarely vegan) but meat is usually not the focus of my meals. I get my meat and all of my other food from the grocery stores. Honestly I don't really care about where it comes from.

 

[Sarah~]

I eat meat simply because I like it. I rarely eat 100% vegetarian meals (even more rarely vegan) but meat is usually not the focus of my meals. I get my meat and all of my other food from the grocery stores. Honestly I don't really care about where it comes from.

Pretty much what I do... No offense to anyone this is not meant to be rude but I really don't care what everyone else eats. I care about what my animals eat and what I eat but what you guys eat is none of my business and vice versa

 

[lil_fuzzy]

When is the last time you heard of carnivores protesting a salad bar? A juice bar? A tofu factory? It just does not happen. Carnivores do not care if people choose to be vegans... Some vegans on the other hand, wear veganism as a social agenda and try to push and force it on others.

Moot point. Animals have thoughts and feelings. In fact, the more research they do, the more apparent the complexity of animals' thoughts and feelings become. Animals used to be though of as robots who act on instinct alone, but that has changed quite radically. So it's understandable that a lot of people have an issue with the mistreatment of animals. Veggies and fruit don't have any thoughts or feelings, so obviously no one is going to protest the mistreatment of fruit.

The protesting or lack of protesting doesn't say anything about what kind of person a meat eater is, vs what kind of person a vegan is.

The percentage of vegans who get involved in those activities is going to be extremely low. There are many reasons to be vegetarian or vegan, not just animal rights issues.

Me for instance, I avoid eating meat because it makes me feel nauseated. I eat a small amount of meat, but mostly I stick with veggies and fruit (plus some grains). I can hardly eat eggs at all, and then only if I've fried the hell out of it until it's unrecognisable. I don't drink milk because I don't feel like that's something humans should do after the age of 2, and also milk doesn't taste nice so why would I? But I do use milk in drinks, for smoothies and to make oats and other things.

And so what if vegans silently judge meat eaters? As long as they do it silently, why be so sensitive about it that you have to hold it against all vegans? Humans judge each other all time for all kinds of stupid stuff, like clothing style, hair style, income, number of kids, amount of body fat, etc etc etc. As long as you don't make stupid comments, no one really cares if other people judge them. But for some reason people get sensitive about it when it's about eating meat? Why? Why do meat eaters care if vegans have a problem with it?

 

[OwnedbyACDs]

The judging doesn't bother me as much as the spouting of untrue accusations about the meat industry (cow rape, really?) because when you are insulting people that I know with things I know to be untrue.

 

[Hambonez]

The judging doesn't bother me as much as the spouting of untrue accusations about the meat industry (cow rape, really?) because when you are insulting people that I know with things I know to be untrue.

Can we just be fair here and say that one person said that and no one else agreed with it? If you want to take it up with one person, that's fine, but it really isn't fair to the reasonable majority to assume they all feel the same way.

 

[Sarah~]

Yeah I think it's fair to say that. It was a really extreme example and I think most people vegan or not don't feel that way about the cow thing...

But I will say that in my limited experience with vegans (like 2 people, really) they were really horrible to anyone they met that ate meat. They would go on and on about how we were murderers and scum just for eating meat, and it just made it really hard to take them seriously when they would use outrageous examples (like the cow thing, not the first time I've heard that, heard it from the few vegans I met) but the people here make some pretty good points.

 

[cookieface]

I can't say much that Hambonez and GottLuvMatts have already stated very eloquently.

I will share my "why I eat the way I do" story for anyone interested. I was raised in a very traditional, meat-and-potatoes family. Never really thought about where my food came from, never really cared much about what was actually in the food. In my mid-20s routine bloodwork came back with a cholesterol level over 250. My doctor told me that if the number wasn't lowered in 3 months, he'd prescribe statins. I wasn't even 25. So, I made a few small changes that gradually led to bigger changes that ultimately resulted in my eating a nearly exclusively plant-based diet. Along the way, I learned about the negative environmental impact of large-scale farming (not just animals, but plants too). Additionally, I learned more about animals and how very similar to humans they are. They use tools, have language, show emotion. No, they're not the same as humans, but they aren't completely separate either. For me, continuing to eat animal products wasn't something I could, in good conscience, do. I honestly have no problem with what other people eat or don't eat. Do I wish more people cared about where their food comes from? Sure. I also wish everyone cared about where their pets, clothes, and electronics come from.

I don't think it's hypocritical for a vegan to own a carnivorous or omnivorous animal. There are ways to meet an animal's need without supporting large-scale farming practices. Also, ethics aren't black and white, there is compromise and plenty of room for gray areas. Sometimes some principles outrank others. Is it better to leave a discarded animal to fend for itself and likely die or take him in, care for him, and feed an appropriate diet even if it is counter your personal beliefs?

Can we just be fair here and say that one person said that and no one else agreed with it? If you want to take it up with one person, that's fine, but it really isn't fair to the reasonable majority to assume they all feel the same way.

I really think this is a good example of judging an entire group based on the actions of a minority. One person out of how many on that thread made such statements and now all vegans are being called out.

Honestly, it's akin to saying everyone who recycles is part of Earth First. Or everyone who goes to church is protesting Planned Parenthood. People can be vegan without supporting or believing in the craziness of PETA.