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Could I feed him less? Sure, but why when I can give him a full meal and just praise him.
I've stated it several times, latency is a must requirement for recall. Anyone who believes latency can be decreased to the necessity of recall with secondary reinforcers is being foolish.

I SEE Hunter get fat, so I don't overfeed. I SEE him respond to praise, so I use it.
You SEE Hunter get fat because your practice of using food in training is poor. Overfeeding is poor practice.

Socrates was called blind in the face of difference, so if blind puts me in the same category as some of the most cherished minds, I'll take it.
It's true the Earth is not flat, and you believe the Earth is round. That's ok, except the Earth isn't round...it's more pear-shaped. Socrates is pretty old, people still tout the Earth is round, and your construct is likely older than both.

1. I never said that the treat method was wrong and readily agreed that it worked. So I don't understand why your trying so hard to push it on me.
I'm not pushing anything on you. I don't care how you train your dog, but guess what? You're not the only one reading my responses. Someone who wants to learn how to properly use primary reinforcers needs accurate information. If you make a comment that does not describe the principles of proper training, I'm likely to comment on what the best practice is not.

2. We obviously have different methods, different ways of finding out these methods, and it's safe to say that we are both stubborn enough that we aren't going to change.
Again, your methods are not my concern.
 

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I would have to agree that you want a recall to happen with immediacy akin to the dog having his tail on fire.

When I was very young we had a Beagle, Wags. Wags would look at you when you called him and he would come IF YOU HAD FOOD or something HE WANTED. Otherwise he would blow you off. He would look at you and the next thing you saw was his doggy butt and the Beagle Flag over his back as he left the area.

After Wags passed we got a Standard Poodle. This wa back in the 60's and it was then we got a book on dog training. This book used praise and corrections to train a dog. Pip was VERY smart and learned everything the first time thru. He was a really good dog. We taught him recall with a line and corrections. Knowing what I know now I give Pip a LOT of credit because he learned and did things IN SPITE of us knowing so little. He always came when called, but the speed was sometimes questionable. Pip always figured one of us kids had something way interesting for him to "help" with so he always came when called.. and we never used food. He was 14 when he died and the day he died my sister called him to her because a car was coming (they were out walking). He decided to take some time responding and his latency cost him his life.

I trained a lot of dogs using correctins and praise and they got trained. Then I was dogless for awhile and trained a lot of cats.. and I have trained and retrained a lot of horses.

Then I got Atka and started her training the same old way.. until a friend at work loaned me some books on this "clicker" stuff and positive reinforcement and the Really Reliable Recall. This Postive stuff was all a first time for me (they say you only get to be a Virgin once on ANYTHING).

The difference in my dog's response using a primary reinforcer (food) vs dogs taught the "old way" was truly amazing to see. My other dogs came when called.. usually at a walk or a trot.. (except Kazi, my last dog.. but I am beginning to think she was an exceptional individual). My current dog Atka usually FLYS to me (is her tail on fire? she is coming so fast it blew out!).

Learning the recall took less than 1/2 the time it took with other dogs and it is fast.

I too worried over using food to reward my dog and her getting fat until someone said, "feed her less in her bowl at feeding time. There is NO RULE that says a dog MUST EAT all the food AT ONCE from a bowl."

Well.. Duhhhh me.. and there are people who have told me I am smart??? :rolleyes:

Somedays my dog, like Zim's dog, gets all her food as training rewards. Sometimes she gets it in her bowl and sometimes she gets it in a Buster Cube... but it is reduced or increased depending on the amount of primary reinforcers she collects during training.
 

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Let's make this overeating thing simple. My puppy should eat 1 cup of kibble a day. I feed her 3/4 of a cup in her bowl. The other 1/4, I use as training during the day. Either way she gets 1 cup a day.
 

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You SEE Hunter get fat because your practice of using food in training is poor. Overfeeding is poor practice.
Which is exactly why I don't practice it...


I'm not pushing anything on you. I don't care how you train your dog, but guess what? You're not the only one reading my responses. Someone who wants to learn how to properly use primary reinforcers needs accurate information. If you make a comment that does not describe the principles of proper training, I'm likely to comment on what the best practice is not.
Your pushing. Not only that, but your also treating it as though your method is the best and the only right way, when obviously there are different methods for different dogs that BOTH work. Yet you persist on saying this/that is improper and not the correct method. What makes it so much more correct than another method that has the same outcome, that is not hurting or abusing the dog?

And your still not noticing the fact that I DID say BOTH methods work. I didn't push my method on anyone and I didn't say it was a better way. It's a different way, so what? It's not hurting my dog, and if it's more complicated; what does it matter to you? You treat, I praise. They are suppose to both be good things, yet your treating the praise aspect as though it were a sin. Lets leave the subject already.

I'm sure theres about .001% chance that someone would come unto the thread, single my thread out, not continue to read other peoples opinions, then follow my thread advice word for word. So I think you can put your fears aside about people reading what you believe to be "incorrect information". If that small percentage did happen to come by, then the person would try and praise the dog, the dog would not respond, and the person would therefor change their tactic to something else. It would still not harm the dog.

Again, your methods are not my concern.
Obviously they are or you wouldn't have commented in the first place.
 

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CP I can't thank you enough for posting the video of the boxer. I've been working on one trick for a long time using capturing and luring. After the video I realized what I had been doing wrong with free shaping, and tried it again today. She got it in 10 minutes.

Yaaay.
 

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CP I can't thank you enough for posting the video of the boxer. I've been working on one trick for a long time using capturing and luring. After the video I realized what I had been doing wrong with free shaping, and tried it again today. She got it in 10 minutes.

Yaaay.
One thought in shaping is that you click for behavior, and reinforce for position. You noticed that in the video. The lady clicks when the dog's head moves down and reinforces at the next approximation of head movement she wants. She started really high with the reinorcer, and offered it lower and lower as the dog improved upon the behavior. It really helps speed up training and I'm glad you saw that, it's very important.

It's a little different than luring in that the lure is the cue, it comes before the behavior.
 

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Exactly. I hated trying to lure it but the capturing hadn't worked.

For the first two minutes Sadie stood there staring at me. Waiting. Finally she just slightly moved her head, so I c&t. She waited another minute before doing anything again but after that she started bobbing her head just like the boxer, lol. After another minute it was like the light went on. After another few minutes she was consistenly offering the trick so I put it on cue and we went around the store practicing it.

I can't wait to try something else but now I'm out of trick ideas.

Right now she pretty much stands and stares, or sits or lays, when she is not sure what to do. I'm hoping if we practice this method more she will get better at offering stuff because she used to be really good at it, and I never took advantage of it well, so she got into the habit of waiting for direction.

This morning I had a banana in my hand and she did a flip! I wish I'd had my clicker! :)

ETA: Well we went outside to try to get spin. She "knows" spin but right now it means follow my hand in a big circle. I'd love her to do it with just a verbal.

Anyway I set up the camera to show my friends, and of course, the battery died the MINUTE she finally got it, so I didn't get a good shot, but it was maybe 3 minutes and suddenly she was spinning big circles without me luring her.

<3 <3 <3

Edit 2: Got another battery and finished. That was fun!
 
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