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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
These is the tactic that I am using to teach DK the recall:

1) Have your dog either sit or lay down. Walk away. If your dog follows you, then bring him back and do it all over again.

2) Move out to the end of your leash. Now call your dog (I use the command here).

3) Now start moving back. As you do that, start folding up the lead as your dog comes closer. By the time your dog is in front of you, your hand should be very high on the lead. Its important for you to keep backing up. If you stand still, your dog will stand still.

4) Make sure by the time your dog is in front of you, you should be butting upward pressure on the lead to force the dog into the "sit" position. *

5) Reward you dog.

* If you find that your dog is running past you, correct him by bringing him in front of you and make him sit. Then proceed to reward.

Another problem you may run into is the dog not paying attention to you. I do this little drill to work on that:

1) Have the dog sit or lay in front of you. Make sure they are looking at you.

2) If the dog isn't watching you, give it a correction with the leash and follow it with a command (I use pay attention).

3) The key is starting for a short amount of time and generally increasing it. Start for seconds, then go up a minute. Anything longer is unrealistic.

If anyone has any comments that would be great. This has worked for me but not promising it will work for you.

thanks!
 

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IMO, if you use treats, the dog is only coming for the treat. I would prefer that my dog come to me because I told him to do it, not because he wants a treat.
Then why use any reward at all? Or for that matter, corrections? The dog isn't coming to you because you told it to, it's coming from a combination of fear of correction and hope for the praise you give when it does.

Stop correcting and praising, and see if your dog still comes "because you told him to". The dog could care less what we tell them to do. It comes because of the consequences (positive or negative) that follow.




I'd really love to see this method of teaching come applied to a breed that shrugs off corrections like an elkhound or a bull terrier. Good luck with that.
 

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Then why use any reward at all? Or for that matter, corrections? The dog isn't coming to you because you told it to, it's coming from a combination of fear of correction and hope for the praise you give when it does.

Stop correcting and praising, and see if your dog still comes "because you told him to". The dog could care less what we tell them to do. It comes because of the consequences (positive or negative) that follow.




I'd really love to see this method of teaching come applied to a breed that shrugs off corrections like an elkhound or a bull terrier. Good luck with that.
I think what the he/she is trying to say, that instead of using treats as her/his positive reinforcement, she/he uses her/his praise instead. I don't think she/he techniquely meant "come here" and the dog would randomly listen. The dog would come to her/him, knowing that praise by her/his own hand would be in order.

Willfull breeds could be taught this way, but would take more time and patience, of course.

Sorry for all the "he/she" lol, I didn't want to offend with calling some women a man and vice-versa.
 

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I think what the he/she is trying to say, that instead of using treats as her/his positive reinforcement, she/he uses her/his praise instead. I don't think she/he techniquely meant "come here" and the dog would randomly listen. The dog would come to her/him, knowing that praise by her/his own hand would be in order.

Willfull breeds could be taught this way, but would take more time and patience, of course.

Sorry for all the "he/she" lol, I didn't want to offend with calling some women a man and vice-versa.
And my point was that using praise is the same thing as using treats, just it is less reinforcing. By refusing to use treats you're just completely disregarding a very reinforcing reward. This would be akin to doing correction training by only poking your dog in the neck with your finger, and completely ignoring your choke or prong collar.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Then why use any reward at all? Or for that matter, corrections? The dog isn't coming to you because you told it to, it's coming from a combination of fear of correction and hope for the praise you give when it does.

Stop correcting and praising, and see if your dog still comes "because you told him to". The dog could care less what we tell them to do. It comes because of the consequences (positive or negative) that follow.




I'd really love to see this method of teaching come applied to a breed that shrugs off corrections like an elkhound or a bull terrier. Good luck with that.
FYI: I have a pit bull. And this technique has worked very well. You obviously have mis-read what i was trying to say. K9companions's response is the effect that i am try to achieve with my training.

I think what the he/she is trying to say, that instead of using treats as her/his positive reinforcement, she/he uses her/his praise instead. I don't think she/he techniquely meant "come here" and the dog would randomly listen. The dog would come to her/him, knowing that praise by her/his own hand would be in order.

Willfull breeds could be taught this way, but would take more time and patience, of course.

Sorry for all the "he/she" lol, I didn't want to offend with calling some women a man and vice-versa.
I'm a he, FYI!:cool: and thanks for the clarification. Thats what I'm trying to achieve here.

And my point was that using praise is the same thing as using treats, just it is less reinforcing. By refusing to use treats you're just completely disregarding a very reinforcing reward. This would be akin to doing correction training by only poking your dog in the neck with your finger, and completely ignoring your choke or prong collar.

use treats if you want, but praise is easier. Dogs smell the treats on you and so will other dogs.

Its important for there to be a reward at the end of a command, praise IMO, will go further.
 

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FYI: I have a pit bull. And this technique has worked very well. You obviously have mis-read what i was trying to say. K9companions's response is the effect that i am try to achieve with my training.
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Nope, I've understood it completely. You're ignoring a hot reinforcer because of semantics. Your dog doesn't see any difference between your praise and you giving him food. It makes him like you the same way. The only difference is the amount of reward he gets from it. Granted in a super people focused breed like a pit, the reward value of your praise and food may be similar. The vast majority of breeds, this is just not the case.

The best part about using treats, is that not only are the generally a much higher value reward but the more you give them, the more the dog associates good things with you, and the higher value your praise is. It also engages the dog's parasympathetic nervous system which makes them feel more calm and relaxed. Your praise does not do this.

If you understand how to fade a reward, using treats as one of (not your only!) rewards is far superior than just praise.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Nope, I've understood it completely. You're ignoring a hot reinforcer because of semantics. Your dog doesn't see any difference between your praise and you giving him food. It makes him like you the same way. The only difference is the amount of reward he gets from it. Granted in a super people focused breed like a pit, the reward value of your praise and food may be similar. The vast majority of breeds, this is just not the case.

The best part about using treats, is that not only are the generally a much higher value reward but the more you give them, the more the dog associates good things with you, and the higher value your praise is. It also engages the dog's parasympathetic nervous system which makes them feel more calm and relaxed. Your praise does not do this.

If you understand how to fade a reward, using treats as one of (not your only!) rewards is far superior than just praise.
I wasn't telling anyone to NOT use them...its just what I do (and its been petty effective for me).

Lets please not clutter this thread up with minor bickering, it is taking away from my original topic, which is teaching your dog the recall.
 

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It's pretty simple, primary reinforcers are things the dog needs to pass on his genes. Food, sex, water. Secondary reinforcers are things the dog must learn to enjoy. The sound of a clicker, verbal praise, playing with a squeaky toy. Tertiary reinforcers are things the dog associates with a behavior. Cues.

Why anyone would choose not to use a primary rienforcer for recall is unclear. I'm not sure what easier means to the OP, but this kind of easier can often complicate the training process. Acquisition of behavior is very important, and decreasing latency with recall is a must not a convenience; it could mean the difference between life or death. I recommend using a primary reinforcer when teaching recall, ALWAYS.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I have edited my original post to remove my views on rewards, as the thread seems to be shifting from the point of my original post. I have my methods, you have yours. End of story.

If you have anything to add, this thread was about training your dog the recall.

thanks
 

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I have a couple of minor quibbles. If you are training "come", why clutter the lesson with "sit/stay-come-sit"? This is fine if those other lessons have been formally trained, but many people teach the recall first.

Why correct the dog for running past you if he doesn't understand that he's not supposed to do that? IMO, it's easier, and more effective, to teach the recall if there are no corrections at the end of it. If the dog is running past you, stand with your back against a wall. If the dog is swinging wide, use terrain or some man made feature (I've used snow fence) to funnel the dog towards you. Set the dog up for success.

I'm okay with correction, but only after the dog has shown me that he fully understands the drill. I want the dog consistently high-balling back to me before I start putting demands on him about what he does when he gets there.
 

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I have a couple of minor quibbles. If you are training "come", why clutter the lesson with "sit/stay-come-sit"? This is fine if those other lessons have been formally trained, but many people teach the recall first.

Why correct the dog for running past you if he doesn't understand that he's not supposed to do that? IMO, it's easier, and more effective, to teach the recall if there are no corrections at the end of it. If the dog is running past you, stand with your back against a wall. If the dog is swinging wide, use terrain or some man made feature (I've used snow fence) to funnel the dog towards you. Set the dog up for success.

I'm okay with correction, but only after the dog has shown me that he fully understands the drill. I want the dog consistently high-balling back to me before I start putting demands on him about what he does when he gets there.
1) the sit/stay has nothing to do with the "come". It is just used to set the dog up in a starting position. Sometimes I still need the "stay" just so that my dog wont follow me.

2) I may not have worded that correctly. I never said to use a correction. Your right and that a correction would really confuse the dog.

What i was trying to say was to correct his positioning by bringing him back in front of you and using the upward pressure to make the dog sit. Then end with a reward.
 

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Your method is really complicating a very basic command. Just call the dog and give him a treat/kibble. Then just phase out the treats after awhile.
 

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I like the Really Reliable Recall method and it's what I teach in my classes.
 

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I wasn't telling anyone to NOT use them...its just what I do (and its been petty effective for me).

Lets please not clutter this thread up with minor bickering, it is taking away from my original topic, which is teaching your dog the recall.
I have used no praise, I have used praise, I have used praise and treat rewards. So in reality everybody is correct. There really is no bickering as everybody is just jumping in with what has worked for them. I am by nature lazy, The combo of praise and treat is so much nicer and easier for me. Oh wait, I believe it's a combo of easier and nicer for dog too. Corrections could also be sprinkled in wherever you think you need them, that's an individual choice. I don't do any corrections on come work until after my dog is coming full speed to me. That can come as dog is mature and problems occur. I just like a fast come and corrections can ruin the fast program.
 

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Well, I don't mean to start up a "bicker-fest" as well, but I'm just going to throw my 2 cents in there anyhow.

IMO I don't think treats are the BEST method. They work, but so does praise.

PERSONALLY I use praise because of these factors.

1. Pure and simple, I just don't want Hunter to get fat. He has a very skinny build and if I feed him too many treats, it makes a big difference, but that's because of his breeding. But I have also seen people over due the whole treat thing and physically hurt their dogs health.

2. Food is something the dog has instincts to live for. During the training session, the dog is highly driven by the food because it's a primary thing. Cues, or praise rather, have to be taught to be a good thing. I find that when using treats with Hunter, he is so intent on just getting the food that sometimes his concentration can be broken. Rather, when there is no treat and a "goodboy" and petting is used, he is able to concentrate more effectively and stay calm throughout the session.

Is it the same for every dog, no. So both methods work, just some are better suited for other dogs. No one can say any ONE method is RIGHT. My method isn't "right", but it works really well for Hunter.
 

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1. Pure and simple, I just don't want Hunter to get fat. He has a very skinny build and if I feed him too many treats, it makes a big difference, but that's because of his breeding. But I have also seen people over due the whole treat thing and physically hurt their dogs health.
This isn't a valid reason. Using your dog's daily ration of food or balancing your dog daily caloric intake DOES NOT make dogs fat. What some people do does not an excuse make.

2. Food is something the dog has instincts to live for. During the training session, the dog is highly driven by the food because it's a primary thing. Cues, or praise rather, have to be taught to be a good thing. I find that when using treats with Hunter, he is so intent on just getting the food that sometimes his concentration can be broken. Rather, when there is no treat and a "goodboy" and petting is used, he is able to concentrate more effectively and stay calm throughout the session.
You aren't differentiating one methodology from another. Your differentiating what criteria you're willing to work through. Some of us want a thinking dog - a dog who will work through frustration to figure out what his guardian wants. Absent of this skill, and presented with a frustrating moment, a dog will choose instinct over instruction. Recall is not a behavior we want a dog to have a choice in.
 

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1) the sit/stay has nothing to do with the "come". It is just used to set the dog up in a starting position. Sometimes I still need the "stay" just so that my dog wont follow me.
Hey Chris. Just wanted to add something here regarding setting up the dog in the start position. You may want to try the come from different start positions as you progress. You are setting up a chain of command here that starts with the sit. Mac comes from a sit/stay AWESOME, but call him from something else that is a bigger distraction (like sniffing or approaching another dog)...and its tougher. Just something to think about.

You may want to start using the "here" command at different times, at different location and with different distractions (I think this is called 'proofing'). I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Start small and build up. When you start, make sure you allow the dog to return to whatever he was doing, so he doesn't associate "here" with removing him from his fun. This will make your recall more reliable....and not just when you've set up the chain of command.
 

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I am not as old as WVasko or as versed in number of dogs trained.. but.. I can tell you this:

Recall is so important that I want it to happen EVERY time I ask for it. EVERY TIME.

I have trained dogs similar to the way the OP has and it works.

I have trained dogs using that method and treats and it works better.

I have trained dogs with treats (primary reinforcer), praise or a quick game of tug or a game of "chase Mom" as a reward.. and NO corrections. The last method worked BEST, Quickest and was more reliable than any other method. That is the goal.. getting a recall reliable as quickly as you can and having the dog WANT to do it.

I also use the Really Reliable Recall (a different word) too.

BTW I train my dog by asking for things during our walks. I also proof my dog many many palces and continue to do so. It may be over training.. but she does what I ask her to and then asks if I have MORE for her to do. She gets compliments for her manners. :D

PS: she works almost exclusively off leash too.
 

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Yes, an addition to the recall program is my personal dogs are started same way as my above reply . Lots of praise, treats etc. Then when dogs are mature whatever corrections that I decide are necessary are phased into training program. I also will not tolerate a non-recall dog. The dogs trained for other people are not in training more than 30 to 45 days and there is not enough time for that type of recall work. The age of dog does not enter into the equation as most dogs I get have no training and are started as you would a start a puppy.
The treats program is not a weight gain program anyway, my opinion is too many treats is like working in a candy factory after a while any cravings for candy disappears. I like praise with the treat tossed in once in a while as a added bonus.
 
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