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I've personally watched people get qualifying scores on courses where they have to clap their hands and yell, "C'mon! Come get the cookie! Look what Mommy has!" while going past the Offset Figure 8.
:confused: You're specifically allowed to clap your hands, encourage your dog, etc. It's not meant to be traditional obedience, not sure why following the rules is a dirty sin or why it wouldn't qualify.

The next time you go to a trial, watch everyone when they have to do a front - almost every single one of them will hold their fingers together and pretend to be holding a cookie to "lure" their dog into a (usually slow and crooked) front.
They're not necessarily pretending to hold a treat. Many of my hand signals are similar to what they were when I was teaching skills and did have treats in my hand, but the lures were faded long ago and they're just the signal I continue to use. For example, my hand signal for a lure is holding my two fists together against my stomach with my index fingers pointing downward. For finishes, similarly I have my hand in a fist with just my index finger pointing. I'm not pretending to hold treats, that's just how I hold my hands.

And yea, sometimes his fronts are crooked. And I don't really care. :D So what? That's why I do Rally instead of obedience, which I will never do. It's a fun alternative with relaxed standards for those of us who are mediocre trainers, it doesn't really pretend to be anything else. *shrug*
 

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:confused: You're specifically allowed to clap your hands, encourage your dog, etc. It's not meant to be traditional obedience, not sure why following the rules is a dirty sin or why it wouldn't qualify.
Just because it's not traditional Obedience doesn't mean the dogs shouldn't be trained. I could go grab any random dog from the SPCA who has never had a day of training and get a 85+ score in Rally Novice in CKC just by "luring" them all around the ring, but that tarnishes the sport for the teams who have actually put the effort in. I don't expect Rally teams to be a sharp and crisp and professional as Obedience teams, but I do expect them to respect their sport, their fellow competitors, and act like they've actually tried. A lot of Obedience people look down on Rally, and despite being a Rally competitor myself, I completely understand why.

But regardless, my issue is not with clapping (although I do have to roll my eyes when I watch the people who have to clap their hands in front of their dogs face five times just to get the dog to look at them - I'd call that a correction and NQ them) My issue is with the fake food luring in a ring where food is strictly forbidden. There's a reason CARO and APDT/USDAA do not allow it even though they allow food.

They're not necessarily pretending to hold a treat. Many of my hand signals are similar to what they were when I was teaching skills and did have treats in my hand, but the lures were faded long ago and they're just the signal I continue to use. For example, my hand signal for a lure is holding my two fists together against my stomach with my index fingers pointing downward. For finishes, similarly I have my hand in a fist with just my index finger pointing. I'm not pretending to hold treats, that's just how I hold my hands.
When you're holding your fingers together an inch in front of your dogs nose and dragging them into position and saying "Look! Look what I have!" that's pretending to hold a treat.

And yea, sometimes his fronts are crooked. And I don't really care. :D So what? That's why I do Rally instead of obedience, which I will never do. It's a fun alternative with relaxed standards for those of us who are mediocre trainers, it doesn't really pretend to be anything else. *shrug*
That's fine, if that's your standard you want to work towards, good for you. My point was that people who need to pretend to hold food to lure their dogs into a front rarely ever get the position they're looking for because the dogs don't know what they're doing.
 

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Just because it's not traditional Obedience doesn't mean the dogs shouldn't be trained. I could go grab any random dog from the SPCA who has never had a day of training and get a 85+ score in Rally Novice in CKC just by "luring" them all around the ring, but that tarnishes the sport for the teams who have actually put the effort in. I don't expect Rally teams to be a sharp and crisp and professional as Obedience teams, but I do expect them to respect their sport, their fellow competitors, and act like they've actually tried. A lot of Obedience people look down on Rally, and despite being a Rally competitor myself, I completely understand why.
Honestly, I don't agree that that you could grab any random dog from the SPCA and get an 85+ by luring. There's no need to exaggerate to put others down. Who cares if traditional obedience people look down on it? Who cares if everyone isn't as serious as you? It's just people trying to enjoy their dogs, just like people involved in all sorts of sports. What you see as a lack of respect or not trying may be someone who is a beginner without much ring experience, who is anxious, a dog and/or person at their first trial, a dog having a bad day, whatever. Why not assume that person is going to take a lesson from the experience instead of that they aren't trying or haven't tried to train their dog or have no respect for the sport? At least they are there trying things with their dog.

When you're holding your fingers together an inch in front of your dogs nose and dragging them into position and saying "Look! Look what I have!" that's pretending to hold a treat.
Well I hope this is a general "you." :)

That's fine, if that's your standard you want to work towards, good for you. My point was that people who need to pretend to hold food to lure their dogs into a front rarely ever get the position they're looking for because the dogs don't know what they're doing.
That's fine. That may be what you meant, but it wasn't what you said. And if that's the standard they want to work on, why worry about what they are doing? Worry about what you and your dog are doing.
 

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Oh, no, AKC and CKC have never allowed food in the ring for Rally - but they do allow you to pretend to be holding food between your fingers to "lure" your dog everywhere, which you cannot do in the organizations that allow food. .
According to the latest AKC Rally Rules, luring is a substantial deduction (6-10 points).

Luring is defined as "the appearance of having a reward in hand. e.g. holding the thumb and first two fingers together as if holding a treat. No treat need be present."

Rally is supposed to be much less formal then competition obedience, but IMO that's not really the best way to look at it. I think it's better to consider Rally as a sport in its own right and not some sort of scaled-down version of Obedience.

In general, in Rally, handlers are permitted to talk, praise, encourage, give additional commands and/or signals using one or both arms, clap their hands, pat their legs or use any verbal means of encouragement (No clapping or patting in RE, however).

In other words, aside from those very mild restrictions, hand signals in Rally can be almost anything that you want at just about any time you want to use one - you are not confined by strict rules as you are in Obedience. Even before the AKC Rally rules were changed to penalize it, there was absolutely no reason to include a luring gesture in your hand signals. It was - and still is - just lazy training.
 

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It's the judge's call wheter the rules are being followed and whether a qualifying score has been earned. It makes me sad for the sports that many exibitors spend so much time worrying about everyone besides themselves and their own dog
What ever happened to take pride in one's own partnership and accomplishments? What happened to just a modicum of good sportsmanship that makes one stop and think before dumping on someone else's proud accomplishment? In
ASCA recently, there were a couple of changes offerd in obedience One was that dogs of advanced age (I would have preferred 9 to 7, but that was the majority opinion toallow senior dogs to jump four inches less than young dogs with better lubricated joints. The second change was an alternative (not a substitute) for out of sight long sits and down, where many people have been concerned about the saftey of their dogs when their were dogs who might cause harm also in the group. You would have thought that the world was going to end, ASCA obedience was ruined and everything was being dumbed down. This was all coming from a handful of people who were more interested in having their dogs win than allowing the membership a say. Interestingly, the most vocal of the lot thought lowering jump hights was "dumbing down obedience". But of course be perfectly fine if we let everybody lower the bar so no older dog could possibly have a perceived advantage.Guess what? If she trains to the level she wants and her dog goes well, that's all she needs. One of the things that first drew me to obedience was that it is a "personal best" sort of thing. You're competing against a standard and against yourself. Nobody else matters, and we can be happy for everyone who met their personal goals. Even if we consider our goals "more worthy". That was a while back. It seems like good sportsmanship just gets harder and harder to find. And I think that hurts the sport, hurts newcomers feelings, and discourages participation. Thats really too bad. It's not rocket science or world peace. It's an avenue to teach your dog new things and have a good time. Not everyone is setting their sight on National champion or OTCH. EVERYONE's goals should be respected. But the bad sports can be very loud at times. When I came into dog sports there weren't very many venues for me to participate and not many sports. People can choose now between organizations springing up every day and new sports almost as frequently. If obedience people are perceived as sour and poor sports, people simply will go to more welcoming venues and sports and obedience will become a ghost town. Because I think it is a very beautiful sport and it can be fun for handler and dog. And because it was my first sport
 

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I am officially hooked...rally and obedience...my new favorite hobby :) i never planned on going to trials, but i think i will sign up for one in february... Wish me luck *lol*
 

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Recon's coming along very well with rear end awareness and retreival of the dumbbell. We're still working with a tiny plastic dumbbell, but he's getting it. He will retreive it and bring it back, we're working on holding onto it when he sits. 'Cause, you know... you can't move and hold onto something while you're being asked to do something else. ;) The perch work looks great, but he still can't walk straight doing lure work in a heel position. The herder in him just wants to crab step still. So that's a work in progress.

Squash got his second leg towards his RN today. :) Small potatoes, but an accomplishment for a greenhorn trainer like me. :p

Congratulations! Have you gotten a board or display of some sort to start collecting/displaying his ribbons in for everyone to see?
 

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congrats! miss Gem has her next trial in march fingers crossed for her CRN :p official practices start up again this week! she just needs to Q both days which barring any stupid mistakes of mine should be easy lol
 

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ok, so Gems Rally practice started tonight..and I gotta be honest..I really wish there was another club that offered anything at all in time frames that I can do, because these folks have no idea what they are doing and it drives me nuts! like they harp on things to the point of stress, like Gem has all over novice down solid, even the "hard" exercises like left pivots and right side steps are her favourite, but after doing the same exercise 30 times in a row she stops doing it properly and THAT is the example they choose to harp on, "she needs to work on that" no...she has worked on it too much, that's the problem! then they brought out the broad jumps for the excellence folks to work on, and told me to try it out with Gem...I was confused..Gem doesn't even know the word jump and they want me to do a full sized broad jump with her with no pre-amble? like..shouldn't we be working up? the instructor herself has issues with it with her dog, she hasn't been able to get her excellence title because her dog keeps walking on the broad jump and she just keeps sending her dog over the full size over and over and only rewarding proper jumps, but I mean by not dropping the size she is still encouraging her dog to walk on the boards, she shouldn't be giving her dog a chance to walk on the boards in the first place. Gem is a large dog, a full size broad jump is not small for her size, now she did the full broad jump perfect right off..but I would prefer to start her like a normal human being, ya know...so my dog doesn't start walking on the broad jump too! :doh:
 

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ok, so Gems Rally practice started tonight..and I gotta be honest..I really wish there was another club that offered anything at all in time frames that I can do, because these folks have no idea what they are doing and it drives me nuts! like they harp on things to the point of stress, like Gem has all over novice down solid, even the "hard" exercises like left pivots and right side steps are her favourite, but after doing the same exercise 30 times in a row she stops doing it properly and THAT is the example they choose to harp on,

repeat 30 times??? Not good practice. For any one training session, the most should be three repeats per exercise. If your dog is getting bored with the "by-the-book" exercises, consider substituting appropriate "games" for some or all of the "by-the-book" exercises.

It may be necessary to use only games in some sessions, especially at the beginning. "Games" include, among other things, breaking down the exercises into component parts and just working on one or two parts separately rather than always working on a complete station. ('shaping', 'back-chaining', 'middle-out').

Games can also include working on those piece-parts of an exercise that need tightening up. I have no problem with a trainer identifying a station or parts of a station that need more work or that seem to be regressing in performance. But it must be done in the right context.

Even when you think that you and your dog have have the complete station well learned, it may be advantageous to go back to games or shaping or back-chaining from time-to-time. This is NOT a regression - it's actually an important part of training.

Also, once you've learned enough stations to run a course, it's important to start incorporating complete courses in your rally training. The idea of a 'course' flowing from station to station, rather than a series of separate exercises, is an important part of rally training.

I only addressed one part of your message. I didn't want to quote the whole thing. However, my overall impression is that these people aren't doing it right.
 

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Last night, my dog started to struggle on the Rally courses. There was a lot of commotion which was making it too hard for her to concentrate. So, on our third crack at the course, I took my time and just did pretty, flowing heeling and skipped all the signs. She was able to work very well once she could just get herself in the groove.

Point is: you have to adapt to your dog. Just because the class is doing one thing doesn't mean that you have to. The instructors lay a format, but the owners get to tweak it to fit their own needs. Never be afraid to do what' right for your dog. In a class setting, there are a bunch of students. Some need drilling, some don't. No one can accomodate everyone. Just attend to your dog in the manner that best serves him and politely ignore the rest.
 

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30 times? Holy crap. On a typical night at my club we run 3 different courses and that's it unless you want to practice a specific exercise. I can't even imagine practicing ANY skill 30 times in a row.
 

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we were there for over an hour and worked on only 4 exersizes (officially, when she got stressed I ignored them and did my own thing) neither gem or I are new to this, we have already been competing, trials are just so far and few between here that I prefer use a class just to get her back into the groove. I just get irritated when they push issues or push methodes on me, for example gem has an exellent side step but after so many reps she starts moving slightly parallel so the instructer tries pushing me to use a wooden dowel as a guide to get her butt in....no matter how many times I tell her no, gem does not respond well to "guiding" and she works very well and quickly just figering things out on her own, she just keeps pushing it, telling me if I teach her to target the dowell it won be scary etc... apperently not getting that I have no interest in using guides to teach her anything and I don't need to, even stressed her side step is never out of qualifying bounds, I'm not concerned about it!
 

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I'm with you on all of the props and guides. I hate them. It' always a battle.

Last night, my instructor insisted that I run my hands down my dog's body when she hit perfect fronts to make her more aware of the perfect position. I dodged as long as I could. My dog has had a stroke, so I believe that consistent, flawless fronts are not going to be possible for us. They are often perfect, but with limited mobility, I am going to have to accept a few flaws. Anyway, finally, I relented and my dog backed up and walked away when I tried to touch her. She HATES to be touched when she's working. I then brought her to the instructor and told her to touch my dog. My dog wouldn't let her touch her. THEN, the instructor told me that I couldn't do "stand for exam" with "a dog like that." So I cued a stand for exam and my dog was perfect. It was a stupid diversion that interupted training, but finally the trainer accepted that running my hands down my dog for being correct was a bad plan in our case.

I wish there was a polite way to ask intructors to just leave you alone.
 

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so i have question: where do you leave your dog while looking at the course? in the car? or do you always bring someone along that can watch your dog?
 
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