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Don't think for a minute an educated buyer can't find themself a well bred purebred. The buying process is no different than with any other breeder. It's just that if you know how to buy a pup, a designer dog breeder would be erased from the list sooner, not later.

My brother recently bought a purbred labrador. I didn't assist in the purchase in any way, nor have I asked how much he paid for the dog. Frankly, I would have preferred he rescued a dog, but knowing his personality, I know buying a purebred was his only option. This is the difference between his dog and a designer dog breeder...his dog, since she was brought into his home at 9 weeks of age, has had exactly zero accidents in the home. ZERO, meaning it came fully housetrained. He has a contract that requires him to have his dog spayed. His contract details without refute that the dog must go back to the breeder should he ever need to surrender it. He has a health guarantee until the dog is 7 years old. His contract specifies which training school he must attent. I could go on and on, but the question is, and as far as I can tell it's been avoided, who would you rather patronize? My brother's breeder, or the pet store you bought your dog from? This is what we're saying. We're saying there are better ways to do things, and as long as people continue to buy dogs from pet stores, flea infested, under socialized, and under trained dogs will be bought from pet stores. It's really sad.
The problem still is the breeders. I still do not disagree with breeding mixes. Puppy mills yes I detest them byb who are not concerned with their health and living quarters are just as horrible.

My Malti-Poo is housebroken. His accedents on the floor in the begining are so trivial compared to the big problem. Yes I think after reading all the info posted here I could problably tell the difference between a reputable breeder and a poser.

Still not everyone is on a forum. Not everone minds housetraining a pet shop dog. And I know a great many people with pet shop dogs that are in excellent health and make wonderful pets.

That is not the problem. I think laws need to be passed to ensure healthy breeding practices and yes even if they are breeding Malti-Poos or Golden Doodles or Shi-Tzus or Schnauzers.
 

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The breeders in Australia who first cross bred labs and poodles in a sincere effort to create a breed that would be "hypoallergenic" have FAILED in that regard, and have yet to produce to breed standard - what they get is a CRAP SHOOT. There are thousands of theses Labradoodles in shelters who will be put to death because they did not live up to the claims of their breeders. Horrible coat, difficult to groom, genetic health problems, and it goes on and on.
Have you considered that what you heard might NOT be correct, and whenever any particular dogs become popular for whatever reason you will find heaps who jump on the bandwaggon for $$$, and in this case grab any Labrador and Poodle that they can get their hands on and breed away.

Anyway, I just had a look where Labradoodles first started, and on their website the following is mentioned at this link address:-
http://www.guidedogsvictoria.com.au/faq/guide-dog-faq/

Guide Dogs Victoria
Guide Dogs FAQ's

What breeds of dogs are used?
In Australia, we use mainly Labradors. We have also crossed Labradors with Golden Retrievers, Curly-coat Retrievers and more recently, Standard Poodles, to produce the now well-known Labradoodle. In response to special requests, Guide Dogs Victoria may source other breeds, including German Shepherds from overseas Guide Dog Schools with whom Guide Dogs Victoria has a special relationship.

What are the reasons for experimenting with other breeds?
Some clients have a preference for a certain breed, and we try to meet their needs. The Labradoodle was bred by Guide Dogs Victoria particularly for people who have an allergy to dog hair. The aim was to breed from Guide Dog Victoria's Labrador brood bitches (which have an excellent temperament for Guide Dog work) with the Poodle (which does not shed its coat) to produce a dog that may be more suitable for people with allergies to dog hair.

Also you'll see in the following it appears that Guide Dogs Victoria still export Labradoodles to other Guide Dog Organizations, and the following from this link address:-
http://www.eyeofthepacific.org/guidedogs.htm

Eye of the Pacific Guide Dogs & Mobility Services Inc
Guide Dog Program

We are contracted with Guide Dog Association of Victoria, Melbourne, Australia (GDVA) and Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind (RNZFB). GDVA scientifically breed and train Labrador Retrievers. They also breed and train Labradoodles (cross between a Labrador Retriever and Standard Poodle). The Labradoodles are dogs given to individuals who have allergies to dog hair. RNZFB provides a large stock of Labrador Retrievers. However, they also provide a wide selection of cross breeds.


Some History I found - It was a vision impaired lady in Hawaii that needed a Guide Dog, and it was her husband's allergy that was aggravated by dogs. Guide Dogs Victoria Australia even tried Poodles, they sent coat and saliva samples from 33 Poodles to Hawaii so that he could be allergy tested to Poodles, ALL of the samples from the 33 Poodles allergy aggravated her husband.
His vision impaired wife still needed a Guide Dog and why Guide Dogs persisted in looking for a solution and it was 2 years later that Wally Conran came up with the idea of trying a Labrador Poodle Cross. One litter of 3 puppies was born and their coat and saliva samples were sent to Hawaii, ONE of the 3 puppies was successful in NOT allergy aggravating her husband, that particular pups name was Sultan who was then brought up and trained as a Guide Dog for that lady. The other 2 puppies that were UNsuccessful and DID allergy aggravate her husband still went on to lead useful lives but with other people who were not allergic to dogs, one as a Remedial Dog and the other as a Guide Dog.


A mother and daughter later on did start breed developing "Australian Labradoodles", see via this link and they are still there:-
http://www.rutlandmanor.com/ASD.Index.htm

So it looks like they haven't failed, but are still in the process of developing a breed and which can take many generations, particularly when breeding to function of Service Dogs plus be more suitable for people who are allergic to dogs.
There were also these which later started up:-

International Australian Labradoodle Association Inc:-
http://www.ilainc.com/IALA/index.html

Australian Labradoodles Association:-
http://www.laa.org.au/

Australian Labradoodle Club of America
http://www.australianlabradoodleclub.us/
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I give up. You leave me with no hope for change.
aawww Curb, come on I actully have changed a bit. I believe for one would get my next doggie from a shelter:) I am not getting one anytime soon.

I also am able to reconize a reputable breeder.

You sound so bummed. I do not think my views are that depressing.
 

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The problem does lie with the breeder, but it also lies with the customer. I personally think that educating the customer is most important. I stand little chance of changing laws, but I can educate people.

The breeders, brokers and pet stores view the dogs the same as they do leashes, beds, crates and food. It's merchandise, nothing more, nothing less.

But the customer cares (we hope!) about the dog they're buying. Educate them on why puppy mills and pet stores are so bad, hopefully before they buy, and they'll be more likely to find a reputable breeder or adopt. If the millers, brokers and stores can't make money off the dogs, they'll - eventually, in theory - be forced to stop breeding.
 

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Lorina. That does make good sense to me. I think though that people will still of course want puppies an just find ads in papers and people pretending to be reputable breeders will just become a whole lot better at desguising them selves to look like one and they will make even more money because they can charge what the pet shops are charging.

Most people do not belong to a forum and are warned about the who is who of reputable breeders.
 

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And half the people who ARE on this forum still insist that a responsible breeder CAN breed intentional mixes for no functional reason.
 

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And half the people who ARE on this forum still insist that a responsible breeder CAN breed intentional mixes for no functional reason.
Many people like me do not want a dog that has a function. I just want a companion.

If breeders had to have a license and be registered with maybe the state in order to breed and sell so they can be checked on to make sure all the dogs were health tested and being cared for humanely even if they were breeding mixes would'nt that be a good start.

I would be so happy if the puppy mills went away. I would think even the people who did not agree with breeding mixes would be too.
 

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Well, and not everyone gets "it."

By "it" I mean how the whole puppymill-broker-petstore thing works.

The "it" I don't get is how we keep on going waving our banners when people clearly just don't give a rat's butt where they get their dogs, or what kind of conditions the parents of their puppy still lives in.

It's like even when we show people pictures of what a puppy mill looks like, and how terrible the conditions are we still have people that say things like, "Oh, well my malti-doodle-labra-poo came from a petstore, and I haven't had any problems with it."

And the whole point of the argument was just over the person's head. People just don't understand what makes a good breeder. They really don't get why genetic and other health tests are so important.

Then, they come back on the forum two months later and whine because their puppy has some kind of ailment picked up from its pet store, or some genetic problem that could have been easily avoided.

And everyone is like, "DUH- THIS IS WHY PET STORES ARE BAD" but by then it's too late.

So, nine times out of ten, we try to use the same arguments 1) the welfare of the animal 2) the "customer's" welfare 3) the welfare of the dog's parents IE puppy mill 4) where the customer's money goes and then usually by argument number four, we're told that we're dog snobs, that we don't care about the dogs, that we hate all mixes, etc. etc.

It's really disheartening and frustrating.

Why are people willing to spend $1000 on a petstore doodle, but not willing to use that money to support a rescue or a great breeder?

Answer: who freakin' knows? I don't get it.

I mean, the information is all over the internet. All someone would have to do is look. But they don't.
 

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Well, and not everyone gets "it."

By "it" I mean how the whole puppymill-broker-petstore thing works.

The "it" I don't get is how we keep on going waving our banners when people clearly just don't give a rat's butt where they get their dogs, or what kind of conditions the parents of their puppy still lives in.

It's like even when we show people pictures of what a puppy mill looks like, and how terrible the conditions are we still have people that say things like, "Oh, well my malti-doodle-labra-poo came from a petstore, and I haven't had any problems with it."

And the whole point of the argument was just over the person's head. People just don't understand what makes a good breeder. They really don't get why genetic and other health tests are so important.

Then, they come back on the forum two months later and whine because their puppy has some kind of ailment picked up from its pet store, or some genetic problem that could have been easily avoided.

And everyone is like, "DUH- THIS IS WHY PET STORES ARE BAD" but by then it's too late.

So, nine times out of ten, we try to use the same arguments 1) the welfare of the animal 2) the "customer's" welfare 3) the welfare of the dog's parents IE puppy mill 4) where the customer's money goes and then usually by argument number four, we're told that we're dog snobs, that we don't care about the dogs, that we hate all mixes, etc. etc.

It's really disheartening and frustrating.

Why are people willing to spend $1000 on a petstore doodle, but not willing to use that money to support a rescue or a great breeder?

Answer: who freakin' knows? I don't get it.

I mean, the information is all over the internet. All someone would have to do is look. But they don't.

And all that deserves to be said all over again.......
 

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Many people like me do not want a dog that has a function. I just want a companion.
And that is a function and breeding should be done with a purpose.

When Jonathon Plott crossed bloodhound and a cur in the 1750's, it wasn't to line his pockets with a new breed. In fact, for seven generations, nobody outside of the Plott family had a Plott hound.

The Plotts developed a dog a dog specifically to excel at coldtrailing bears in the Appalachian mountains. It took over 250 years for the dog to be recognized by the AKC.

Esther will never hunt bears because her owner doesn't want to hunt bears. But I still take some satisfaction in knowing that her ancestors had a purpose that wasn't the result of a whim or a fad.
 

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Discussion Starter #72
snowshoe and cshellenberger - You guys are cracking me up. You keep insisting that I'm upset/insulted, but I'm really not - truly! Besides, there's nothing wrong with a good controversial debate.
No worries.

We will just have to agree to disagree. You've done your homework, I've done mine and we have different opinions. No big deal.

peace36, we are on the same page. I enjoy reading your posts, very pleasant even when you could choose to be rude.

Every person I've known who bought a dog from our local pet shop has enjoyed a healthy, smart puppy who lived a long life. No fleas, no problems with socialization. They are all neutered/spayed and the experiences have been very positive.
Is there such a thing as a good pet shop?
 

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You're right, RonE. That is a great combination. Do they keep the rescue dogs on site, or is it run like Petsmart, where the dogs are just there for the day?
 

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I'm pretty sure they rotate them to give more dogs the exposure. People who never dream of going to a shelter might be walking through the mall . . .

And, since they have to go through the same screening as they do at the shelter, they eliminate the impulsive, "Hey! What say we buy a puppy?" thing.

It's amazing what a little publicity can do. My wife, who wasn't in a big hurry to get another dog after we put our lab down (she was still in mourning) saw Esther on TV and suggested/insisted that we go meet her the next day. Five days after that, she was living with us.
 

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Most people do not belong to a forum and are warned about the who is who of reputable breeders.
No, but this isn't the only place I try to educate people. Having a rescue dog is the best advertisement for rescue dogs. :)

There's been countless people who've asked me about my dog, and were truly surprised there was such a site as Petfinder, and never heard of breed rescues before. They, like many you hear about on here, looked at their local SPCA, didn't see any small dogs, and figured there were none available, and go to a petstore instead. They also didn't know that the shelters often have waiting lists for certain breeds, so a smaller dog might already have applications on it before they're officially up for adoption. Or that rescue groups often pluck dogs from shelters.

Similarly, when people call up the vet's office wanting to know if we know of anyone with ____ type of dogs or puppies, we tell them about rescue groups we know of, or point them towards Petfinder.

Even the back of my car has ribbon magnets reminding people to spay & neuter and adopt, and one for the Pekingese rescue I adopted from.
 

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They also didn't know that the shelters often have waiting lists for certain breeds, so a smaller dog might already have applications on it before they're officially up for adoption. Or that rescue groups often pluck dogs from shelters.
Yes there certainly are waiting lists for certain breeds, and there are people who are prepared to wait. Take for example at Cavalier Rescue "applications are held for 6 months" then the applicants have to contact them to let them know that the applicant is still interested, some certainly do wait much longer after that particularly so if they want a certain coat color. Adoption donations vary based on the age and health of the rescued dog, but generally range from $200-600, see via this link:-
http://www.cavalierrescueusa.org/html/adoption.html

Those who want to buy a "pet quality" registered pure bred Cavalier then they had better start saving for about $2,000, see regarding this on a Cavalier Forum via this link:-
http://www.ckcsboard.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?p=97778
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Krikey!- 1800 for a pet quality dog???

That's almost $2000 for a dog that you can't show and would otherwise have to co-own...

LOL!

Then again, many of those people were located in So Cal...everything is expensive there...
 

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1500-1800 is typical for a pet quality Mastiff from a quality breeder who health tests. 2000 and up for a pet quality English Bulldog from a reputable breeder.
 
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