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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
The Bully Kutta and the Alaunt relation



we have some pretty knowledgable people here, so i thought we could discuss the realtion of different breeds with the alaunt and i want to start with the bully kutta first. i would say the bully kutta has alaunt blood from two sides. most people will at first think of british dogs, but knowing where the alans, or let´s say their ancestors, came from, it makes more sense to start with ancient persia. we know that the alans were located in the caucasus and from there migrated to europe later. we could call the alans a subdivision of the sarmatians who had their origin where the iran is located now. (iran-caucasus-europe) with that said the first alaunt relation of the bully kutta are persian LGDs such as the "Persian Sarabi Dog" aka "Persian Mastiff". in india these short coated LGDs (shepherds´ mastiffs of the alang tribes) were later called "Alangu Mastiffs" due to the fact alani tribes became known as alang tribes there.
the "Alangu Mastiff" is wrongly called "Sindh Mastiff" sometimes. it is a misnomer because they are not from sindh, but from iran.
the british influence later is both celtic- and alaunt influence, as both tribes, the celts and the alans, where the main influence to the short coated european dogge types. the dogs the britains later brought to the indian subcontinent.

i have created the graphic above to show my views on the origin of the bully kutta, its alaunt relation and its development. i have tried my best using paint. ;)
for me the starting point of the BK is when the native indian sighthounds melted together with large LGDs from persia. (both of them you can see at the top of the pic.) the ancient large persian mastiffs were LGDs like the sarabi dog. (in phenotype they were pretty much like kangals, maybe even a bit like the aksaray malaks sometimes). in general all LGD types in the middle east are similar dogs, namely ancient "primitive/original" mastiffs.
just look at the various human migrations and influence of civilizations on modern day pakistan. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan. mind you, all these lands have giant LGD type dogs i.e. kangals, sarabis, aksaray Malaks, CAO types....
however i would say the sighthound influence was big enough that the BK was more leaning towards a large hunting mastiff, while the ancient LGD types (the original central asian mastiffs) added power and size. these hunting (running) mastiffs were propably a type we could call the "prototype bully kutta".
with the british invasion in india later also british blood was added, mainly of butchers´ alaunts (the name used for the bulldog types) and this was when the modern bully kutta arose. these british dogs for sure added determination & gameness. i explained this further on my chart.
i would like to hear your thoughts and opinions too!

more opinions:
http://breed-encyclopedia.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36&p=192#p192
http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=6&p=12200#p12200

well, me personally i neither agree with people who deny that india had larger mastiff types before british people arrived, (mainly used for hunting) nor do i agree with the guys who are portraying the bully kutta as a dog that fell from the sky somewhere in pakistan, having no influence of large shepherds´mastiffs such as sarabi dogs etc. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan should not be forgotten. all these lands have large LGD type dogs such as kangals, sarabi dogs, aksaray malakis, CAO types etc. and they melted togethers with native hunting dogs from india. so there we already had a prototype bully kutta, but this dog was no "pure" fighting dog yet. it was more a multi-purpose dog (hunting & guarding) with the ability to fight if needed. the culling for fighting began later and there the mixing took place. (butchers´alaunts and some other types the british took with them). i don´t think british people added more hunting types as they would not be useful for fighting and the prototype BK already had enough sighthound blood, which was added for hunting.


sunnyAK
 

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I looked them up last year, but to tell you the truth after my stories are finished with I only remember some info. I do remember they're great guard dogs, they're protective, and are loyal. The way I see it is that they just were bred from other guard dogs, or bully breeds, years ago and it turned into them. Just like with any dog bred, they start out with others and then work their way towards what people like. The dog in my story had to be tough and so I put a Bully Kutta in. The dog's name was Ares.

Interesting info you have there though.
 

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@ Firestorm
I would say they are much to large to be mistaken for a pit bull.
I always was sure that Bully Kuttas were related with Sage Koochees, but after seing some these Persian Sarabi LGDs, they indeed seem to be extremely close to the Bully Kuttas only that BKs have completely smooth coat. Very interesting!
 

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A lot of them obviously are still modern mixes. Sometimes they look like hounds and sometimes a bit more mastiff-type.
 

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When I put a rare breed in one of my stories, I make sure I can remember what the breed looks like and differentiate them between other dogs that may look like them. So with the Bully Kutta, as Bandogge was saying that they can look like other breeds, I now know what they look like and can pull it up the breed up in my mind, if need be, and maybe guess what breed it is (if someone asks). I guarantee I won't always be right. The one in my story looked like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Indian_Mastiff_Bully_Kutta.jpg

Hope y'all got what I meant above.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
When I put a rare breed in one of my stories, I make sure I can remember what the breed looks like and differentiate them between other dogs that may look like them. So with the Bully Kutta, as Bandogge was saying that they can look like other breeds, I now know what they look like and can pull it up the breed up in my mind, if need be, and maybe guess what breed it is (if someone asks). I guarantee I won't always be right. The one in my story looked like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Indian_Mastiff_Bully_Kutta.jpg

Hope y'all got what I meant above.
this is quite interesting, as this one always is used as a perfect example of an Alangu Mastiff or Indian Mastiff. if i have more time left i will say more on this matter.

i don´t agree with the stuff the person mentions in this article. http://indian-mastiff.blogspot.de/p/bully-kutta-vs-indian-mastiff.html he says that white always comes from bull & terr breeds. of course it can come from bull & terr breeds in some cases, but there can always be many reasons for white colour, like native sighthounds for example. by the way, many bull breeds used to be brindle.
 

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I think with that article you posted, Lemmik, is a recessive gene in the dog. Somewhere along their lines, the white color came into play and now they can come in that color. Many breeds are descended from lots of older and extinct dogs, maybe the Bully Kutta is like that too. So yeah, I don't think just one dog played a part in their color role.

And before you posted this thread and when I was doing my story, I only saw them in the brown coloring. Now I see them in the white coloring when I pull their pictures up on Google. They almost look different, but I guess many breeds can look different when you put a different coat color on them.

Oh yeah they also said that they're dog aggressive. I don't remember reading that in the wiki article because the dog in my story works with other dogs. I'm sure if they're socialized they should be fine.
 

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I think with that article you posted, Lemmik, is a recessive gene in the dog. Somewhere along their lines, the white color came into play and now they can come in that color.
Very intersting. I don´t know that much about it, so could you please explain it a bit deeper with the recessive gene and white. I only know that white can be seen in LGDs quite often (also white with red, fawn or black marks often around an eye) and that white can also often be seen in Bulldogs. It is an old Alaunt colour. Only the french alaunts were often red, but they also had white dogs with red marks.
 

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I'm not a genetic expert by any means Bandogge, but from what I understand of dog coloring from reading books is that a recessive gene could be in them. Okay let me do a human example: your dad and mom have brown hair, but when they have a child, the child has red hair. How could this happen? Well maybe a recessive gene was in the child from, say the father's side because his grandmother had red hair. It's still there and can come out and did in this child. And when the child grows up, she could have a red-headed child as well.

I believe dogs can be the same way. And if dogs mate with strays, say it's before the whole breeding program started, maybe that stray held a gene in them for that type of color. The only example I can think of is of the tricolor GSD. Who knew a GSD could come in tricolor (well except for those who already knew, lol)? I love dog breeds and never knew they could come in that color. I'm guessing somewhere along the way that gene was introduced somehow by another breed that had the gene in them.

Someone could tell you about genes better than I could, but that's what I know of it. There's actually a thread somewhere around here talking about coat colors and people's intake on the genes from them. I forget exactly which thread it is, but here's what I found in the search results: http://www.dogforums.com/search.php?searchid=3540194
(I hope it helps you out more than what I explained)
 

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I'm not a genetic expert by any means Bandogge, but from what I understand of dog coloring from reading books is that a recessive gene could be in them. Okay let me do a human example: your dad and mom have brown hair, but when they have a child, the child has red hair. How could this happen? Well maybe a recessive gene was in the child from, say the father's side because his grandmother had red hair. It's still there and can come out and did in this child. And when the child grows up, she could have a red-headed child as well.

I believe dogs can be the same way. And if dogs mate with strays, say it's before the whole breeding program started, maybe that stray held a gene in them for that type of color. The only example I can think of is of the tricolor GSD. Who knew a GSD could come in tricolor (well except for those who already knew, lol)? I love dog breeds and never knew they could come in that color. I'm guessing somewhere along the way that gene was introduced somehow by another breed that had the gene in them.

Someone could tell you about genes better than I could, but that's what I know of it. There's actually a thread somewhere around here talking about coat colors and people's intake on the genes from them. I forget exactly which thread it is, but here's what I found in the search results: http://www.dogforums.com/search.php?searchid=3540194
(I hope it helps you out more than what I explained)
Very good post thank you mate! I even know a family where both the lady and gentleman have brown hair and the son has red hair lol and I am not so stupid to think it does mean she had someone else and is fooling her husband. You are right this can happen. Concerning dogs I even don't thin white is recessive as so many breeds & types are base on white. LGDs & Bulldogs are in most cases white, then also the british bull & terr dogs are white and you still can see this in the Gull Terr of Pakistan that is basically the Hinky Bull Terrier. I really think because of the british bull & terr dogs many BKs with a lot of bull & terr influence look very similar to the Dogo Argentino!
 

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By the way, longer ago I read somewhere that the colour brindle comes from sighthound crosses, if it is correct i just don´t know.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
i will add some info now, including a collection of posts & quotes:



Temperament and phenotype

The “Beast from the East”, a title given to the Bully Kutta because of its aggressive nature in dog fights, or let´s say to its pretty good will to continue fighting, especially if you consider that it is a large dog and most large dog breeds are not that much focused on fighting for no reason, or are simply not bred as match-dogs. However the breed is bred for fighting and shaped by this purpose. With proper socialization and appropriate training, the Bully Kutta can make an amenable companion for dog owners. They can be protective, but when it comes to guarding don´t expect too much of them. Many people living in Pakistan say almost anyone can walk up to them, unhook the chain and walk away with them.
Judging by their build, being long legged and not too massive I expect them to be good large game hunters. The Pakistani Bully Kutta is a powerful mastiff-type dog. Long-legged and with a medium wide chest, this breed is agile and quick, capable of great speed and known for its impressive stamina. The head is medium broad with a long muzzle and not typical “mastiff-like”.

To answer a few questions from my point of view, that have been asked here on another board: (It is a bit like frequently asked questions.)
populator135 said:
Do any of you dog "experts" out there believe that this breed is the most formidable domestic canine of them all ?
No, I don´t think it is the most fomidable animal. However we first would have to define the word "most fomidable". There is no "most formidable" breed for me anyway, it often is more the individual and the breeding as well as the line.
For me a dog breed or a type had to to be way more versatile than a Bully Kutta to deserve a title like "most formidable".


A Bully Gull Terr for example, also known as Gull Dong, is a much better guard dog and serves more purposes unlike the majority of the Bully Kuttas. As mentioned before when it comes to guarding don´t expect them to be dismissive towards people and make good guard dogs. The breeding goal has never been a versatile one. Bully Gull Terrs can match Bully Kuttas and have defeated them in the past, so they can match them in their own game, while being pretty good guard dogs too, so all in all it makes them more versatile dogs.
I personally don´t think Bully Kuttas can be seen as a “pure, unchanged eastern breed” as when it comes to dog fighting, people in general use what works.
You also see a difference between fighting Bully Kuttas of the past and the present, while many describe the older fighting dogs as being boring in their style and looking more like dogs in a contest of stamina and wrestling, new Bully Kuttas have popped up with more bull & terr influence and a modified fighting style.

Mosquiller said:
BKs are overrated.
tall, narrow, hound-shaped head and body. can't be the best fighter.
(I'm against dog fighting btw).
You have made a good point mate. It obviously is a difference if you evenly match dogs or have a dog that has to inflict big damage against a wild predator even in the first minutes. One dog might be good for dog vs dog combat again talking about evenly matched dogs and the other dog for fighting wild predators and there are breeds, crosses and types that could shine in both combat and a not “staged” scenario. By the way, in the latter (fighting wild predators and being able to make very good match dogs) often crosses excel. Bully Kuttas are good on the long run, due to their stretched build and not having too much mass, on the other side they are not the dogs that dog much damage on average and their heads are not built for such a high bite force as many western mastiff-type dogs or some LGDs. The contests are more based on which dog lasts longer in terms of stamina and will to keep on fighting.

The Bully Kuttas on Kashmir side are bigger, due to having more Gaddi Kutta influence, the latter is another local LGD type. This results in thicker skin and thicker coats (a bit more fur). Due to the LGD influence these dogs have bigger heads and sometimes larger teeth and are able to make more damage than "normal" Bully Kuttas. The usual Bully Kutta has indeed a "houndish" head shape and has more the phenotype like Mosquiller decribes it and without any doubt they have sighthound influence.

One more thing to all readers, don´t confuse Gull Terrs with Bully Gull Terrs aka Gull Dongs, as Bully Gull Terrs are a mix of Gull Terrs with Bully Kuttas, with more Gull Terr blood in most cases. Gull Terrs are based on the EBTs (English Bullterriers) that have been brought to the Indian sub-continent.

Bully Kuttas are more often than not, able to defeat Afghani Sage Koochee, the LGD from Afghanistan, due to Bully Kuttas having the advantage of longer hind legs with better/more angulation and also due to being more willed. (Their mindset is better for combat.) Sage Koochees are often open-hocked and lack angulation, so the Sage Koochee cannot be seen as a proper representative of all types of LGDs and for sure also not of all types of mastiff-type dogs, no matter if western-mastiff type dog, or eastern mastiff-type dog. (A proper German Mastiff for example has pretty good hind legs for wrestling.)
Here a picture to show some differences:
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy282/sunnyAK1/hindlegsangulation.png
Accidentally I have seen some Sage Koochees in mixed tournaments with Bully Kuttas, as the internet is sadly full of such stuff and the Sage Koochees were more like the dog in the middle, which is not good for having a solid grip to the ground, while standing on the hind legs. Standing on their hind legs they had problems against the BKs and fell to the ground much to easily. Just like you see it in the graphic above, looking at the dog in the middle. The distance between the feet is too close, combined with a lack of angulation.

Some more history and controversy:
This legendary Pakistani/Indian fighting dog (although we have to say that the Pakistani dogs are the better bred fighters) is thought by some of its fanciers to have remained pure and unchanged since ancient times, while others question its true origin and background. Although there is some evidence that the Pakistani Bully Kutta was developed from the Sage Koochee and there are lines with Gaddi influence another native LGD type, old Persian Alaunts, Afghani Gawi Bulldogs, Indian Mastiffs, Assyrian Mastiffs and dogs introduced by Alexander the Great, who in opposite to many peoples knowledge also brought dogs to the Indian sub-continent (although most people only know the story that he brought TM-like dogs back to his country, but he died on his way back) and many other types that people bring into play, quite a few authorities believe it is a result of crossing local hunting dogs, especially sighthounds with German Mastiffs, German Pointers, English Mastiffs and Bulldog types, as well as other western breeds brought to the region by the British soldiers in the 1700's.
It is a know fact, that the same type of English Bull Terriers that have been brought to Argentina, have been brought to India too and Pakistan used to be an Indian province.
I personally don´t believe the “ancient pure Pakistani breed story”, but I also don´t think they are just German Mastiff crosses. However if you cross certain sighthound types to Mastiffs, no matter where they are from, you will get similar dogs in phenotype as German Mastiffs.

Interbreeding between both of these types mentioned a few lines before, was common and while a small number of “true Bully Kutta bloodlines” howsoever you define “true” have supposedly been preserved, much of the breed's gene pool has been corrupted.
But let´s face the facts that I have mentioned earlier. Fighting dogs that are still fought nowadays have been improved by crossing any dog into the breed that worked and helped to get the desired result, a good match-dog, so this is how I see the Bully Kutta. I neither see it as a British result or some German Mastiff crosses, but for sure also not as ancient and unchanged Pakistani breed. Some say even the name of the breed was indicative of the influence foreigners had on the region, translating simply to "Bully Dog", but here I have to disagree, as Bully Kutta does not mean „Bully type dog“, like it can be read on MolosserDogs, but wrinkled dog! “The word Bully actually derives from the languages of Sindhi and Hindi-Urdu as bohli — meaning heavily wrinkled. “
The explanations offered by the breed fanciers for the apparent non-existence of the pre-colonial name for the controversial Pakistani Mastiff range from suggesting that the Bully Kutta is the continuation of the original Persian Alaunt to it actually being the same thing as the thought to be the extinct Gawii, but further research is required to establish whether these claims are valid or simple wishful thinking.

Regardless of the true ancestry of the breed, the Bully Kutta's popularity in its homeland remains reasonably strong, mostly due to much of the country's acceptance of dog-fighting tournaments as a way of life, although it should be noted that the practice of outcrossing hadn't been fully abandoned in some parts of Pakistan even after the British left the region, with many other breeds having been created using both the original Bully Kutta and its descendants over the years. Some of these newer Mastiff types are the Kohati Bulldogge, Nagi Bulldogge, Sargodha Bulldogge, Kanda Bulldogge and the Pakistani Boarhound. Nowadays, all of these breeds are being incorrectly classified as one and the same, especially in the West, where the Bully Kutta is slowly becoming popular. In recent years, these dogs have been assigned the misleading "Central-Asian Mastiff" name, which conveniently does away with individual categorization of actual breeds and varieties found in the region, allowing the breeders of such animals to promote their stock in the West under a new exotic label, without having to worry about the actual ancestry of the dogs they import, breed and sell.
One more thought of mine, beside that we have to say that no dog like the Bully Kutta can be found in the surrounding countries of India and Pakistan, including countries that belonged to former Assyria and this is definitely a valid doubt that the dogs are the dogs that used to be know as Assyrian Mastiffs or the dogs know as “Babylonian dogs”. Beside that some of the mural reliefs in Ninive even resemble way more a St. Bernard than a Bully Kutta in my opinion.

Some fanciers in its home country claim that the best examples of “pure” Bully Kuttas were never sold to foreigners or even expatriates visiting Pakistan, inferior dogs were readily available for export, with some authorities pointing out that the majority of Western-bred bloodlines aren't pure, having been crossed with various European dogs to soften the temperament and increase population. I agree to the latter, but I guess to countries like South Korea, where different fighting dogs are tested, they won´t sell inferior dogs. Fortunately, the true pure Bully Kutta, whatever that is, as I don´t regard “true pure” as a dog of pre British colonial times, can still be found in some areas of Pakistan, where it is regarded by many as a national treasure. Sad but true this breed is still used today for what it was created centuries ago, which is the ever popular "sport" of dog-fighting and bear-baiting, especially the latter is the biggest crime, as the bears are chained, have no claws and no teeth. For the terrible "event" of bear biting, Gull Terrs and Bully Gull Terrs are usually preferred.
I think a meaningful and useful alternative to dog on dog combat would be large game hunting for the breed, maybe even in a combination between a male and female dog.

The average size is 32cm while a few very tall dogs exist, with almost the size of German Mastiffs or Irish Wolfhounds.

sunnyAK

http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=111
 

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Discussion Starter #15
User1 said:
As some of you may know, suliman and I don't agree on the origins of the bully kutta. To put it mildly :lol:
Suliman believes the bully kutta is a direct descendent of ancient fighting mastiffs from ancient civilisations in the indus valley region (or something along those lines, correct me if I'm wrong), while I believe they're clearly descendents of western big-game hunting dogs brought to the sub-continent by the british.

When I proposed seizer origins to suliman, he had a few rather weak arguments against that idea. I intend to point out the mistakes in his arguments, and also illustrate how blatantly similar western hunting mastiffs were to bully kuttas in appearance around the time that the british went to india.
Using images borrowed from the book "the mastiffs- the big game hunters", which suliman has probably seen, but conveniently ignored.

First what does the book say about seizers-


Yes, that makes sense, "seizers" being comprised of the european "gripping" dogs, mastiffs and bullbreeds, and the name "seizer" being a reference for their tendency to "seize" steadfast onto the quarry.
Suliman claims seizers were invented by Samuel white baker, who only hunted in sri lanka, and he describes them as greyhound x bloodhound. This isn't true. Samuel white baker hunted with all sorts of dogs, foxhound crosses and deerhound crosses and seizers, which he mentions seizers as being mastiff and bull crosses, as does the above account from INDIA.

Here is a picture showing two hunting dogs typically used by the british in india, one of the rough coated sighthound variety, and the other of the shortcoated seizer variety.

Gee, is it just me or does that seizer look a ****load like a bully kutta? I mean I couldn't draw a BK that accurately, and I consider myself an artist.

Some other artworks depicting seizers-
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/bkandstags.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/huntingbks.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/seizerbks.jpg

Suliman says "seizers are like bloodhounds or some shit, wtf dude?" (I'm paraphrasing), but let's look at what passed for a bloodhound in the 1800s?
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/bloodhoundbkseiz.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/bloodhoundsbks.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/siblood.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/slavebloods.jpg
Look familiar? Like, I don't know, maybe EXACTLY like BKs?
"Bloodhounds" were often mastiff/bull crosses, with a splash of st hubert hound for scenting ability.

While we're at it, let's take a look at the british/european hunting mastiffs from around that time-
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/reallyobviousbk.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/obvbk.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/eurobks.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/dogmark.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/dnae.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/colonialbks.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/blatantbk.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/bksondeer.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/bkmastiff18.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/bkmast.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/bkbullbaits.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/bkboar.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/gun_bullety/bearbks.jpg

Shit even the bulldogs looked like stocky BKs-


Suliman says I talk too much so maybe I should just leave it there and let the pictures speak for themselves. Blatant BK looking dogs were taken by the british to india for hunting big game (specifically subdueing and fighting the quarry, hence seizers), they kicked around in the dirt for a while fighting stuff and then around 2001 some idiot on the internet started calling them Bully Kuttas. That's the history of the BK.
http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=715
 

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Discussion Starter #16
the reply and a very different point of view:
suliman said:
Gun said:
The truth is suliman acts like a **** to me, and I act like a bit of a **** back, but I definitely hold back more than I say and try to keep it focussed on the dogs, unlike him.
Hello, did you miss me? Too bad I am back to ruin your Estrogen High, thinking you’ve won:lol:

I am so heartbroken, I was having very big hopes for my worst fears!

First of all my heartiest congratulations goes to GUN, for the first time in History coming up with some pictures. A Big Hurray to the Shit quality uploads of pics taken from a Cellphone, dude if you don't have a scanner or don't even have acces to one, want me to donate you a nice Scanner? at least you could Scan the pictures properly and put on better quality pics! rather than using a Cellphone Cam which also seem's shit quality by the way :D

Well well looks like you like ****s too much, what do they say about you'r kind. They’re all bloody pufters! You lead the pack marching in Sydney at the annual parade -Mardi Gras festival.

I guess you have a very short lived memory. let me remind you

Suliman said:
I publically and solemnly would like to offer apologies if knowingly or unknowingly you felt even the slightest of rudeness towards you, your country or breeds! I’d Expect the same level of Respect in Return!!!

I’d like be the first to take the honors of bringing forth a Friendship Hand to you and let’s enjoy this great opportunity to learn from each other about the Breeds of their Nation.
After all the Respect rituals, you took so anally me asking on Sunny's statement that my questions were still unanswered. Does not bother me at all we know you love ****s especially up the a**

Gun said:
You should be relieved I dropped the seizer issue, because your attempts to squirm out of that one were weak as hell.

You wanna talk about seizers? Let's talk about seizers.
I'll start a thread on the obvious seizer/bully kutta connection today.

Maids, seizers/bully kuttas... guess colonialism wasn't all bad?


Gun said:
Suliman claims seizers were invented by Samuel white baker, who only hunted in sri lanka, and he describes them as greyhound x bloodhound. This isn't true. Samuel white baker hunted with all sorts of dogs, foxhound crosses and deerhound crosses and seizers, which he mentions seizers as being mastiff and bull crosses, as does the above account from INDIA.
Not only you'r ass is arrogant but you also posses the quality of Lying and that too right on the face.

Where did Samuel White Baker came into Discussion from, dropping out of the Sky? I guess Hypocrisy limits your short memory

Gun said:
There was also the seizer. What do you make of it? A big game hunting(and part time security) bandog used extensively in india and what was then ceylon by the british. It's written about in big game hunting accounts of the time,most notably by Sir Samuel White Baker. A cross between mastiffs, bullterriers and german and english hounds (I would guess everything from foxhounds, bloodhounds, boarhounds aka danes, and sighthounds).
Perphaps you'r ego was hurt bad when I slapped back the Statements from Samuel White Baker. You call my arguments weak, We are not talking about your erection here :lol:

I have said it before and unlike you I stand for what I say. Samuel White Baker Created the Seizer, just like Swinford Created the Bandog, like Katrina Hartwell creates Bandogs.

Gun said:
Suliman claims seizers were invented by Samuel white baker, who only hunted in sri lanka
Honestly you call yourself a hunter, shame on you!! Did Samuel White Baker came into your dream and told you he only hunted in Srilanka??

He has been to India many times in 1885 and 1887-1889 pursuing tigers and blackbuck. Or perphaps you presume that he was a lier and a hypocrite like your self! This makes me have real doubts on you. The Four ForeFathers of Big Game Hunting are William Cotton Oswell, Henry Astbury Leveson, Sir Samuel White Baker and Roualeyn George Gordon Cumming. Sir Samuel White Baker only one amongst them to be Knighted by the Queen. But who do you care to listen, you’re a Knight in your own right, being Knighted at Mardi Gras for the special skill of Dwindling your thang :lol:

You think just by putting up a write-up on Seizures from the Book is enough, what’s the link to the Bully Kutta Dah?

Let me up put up original Manuscript from Rifle and the Hound in Ceylon.




Gun said:
Suliman says "seizers are like bloodhounds or some shit, wtf dude
Are you that Dumb? Do you want me to slap your face now or you would like to do the honor’s yourself. Carefully read with open eyes above what Sir Samuel White Baker wrote. Like the Bandog was a gamekeeper’s mongrel specializing at Man Grabbing/Seizing. The Seizure was a mongrel specialized at seizing big game. A Neo/American Bulldog is called a Bandog and so is a Dogue De Bordeaux/Pit, since they are types not breeds.



About your pictures, I am 100% sure that you have Hyperopia! Go get your eyes checked.

LMAO the picture below is titled by GUN as BK Hunting. Perhaps the encircled Ceylon (Srilanka) escaped your notice, BK's in Srilanka haha. Also that the dogs have pointy muzzles, ears thrown back and folded, some lurcher type in the background. Just like your knowledge of Hunting History, your knowledge of dog anatomy is jack shit. Showing dogs of different type Short muzzles, Bloodhounds, then English Mastiffs, Bandogs, Bulldogs and everything is comparable to BK. This is what you call Desperate.



About your Seizer picture, What’s the hype about it ain’t no special thing that existed have gone away. Showing Seizers of 27 and 28 inches who are 40 kg + range and comparing them to BK, you can’t be stupider than this.

Below is a comparison of the Seizer with the Australian Bandog. Similar weight and hight range, similar breeding both being mogrels and similar Anatomy.

If you see the Australian Bandog similar to Bully Kutta, well with Hyperopia Disability income won’t be a bad idea.





Gun said:
You're not getting it. NONE of the dogs in india are purebreeds. Not one.
Forget the Bully Kutta thingi None of the dog breeds in India is a Pure bred :lol:

Below are some bits from Sir Samuel White Baker’s Wild Beasts and their ways. Mr. Baker describes about a large breed kept by the Banjara’s. He is referring to the Banjara Mastiff. Why didn’t he mentions of the Banjara as a cross of Bullterrier to hound or anything similar or more over any blood being brought over from the West influencing the creation of the breed. The Banjara’s have Indian Mastiff/BK blood in its vein’s. The two dogs he got were mix bred with a local dog and the Banjara and described as excellent quality.



Go get yourself educated before talking dogs, at least you’d know wtf your talking about. Samuel White Baker only hunted in Srilanka my ass and yeah please don’t waste our time by replying with your trademark So What!
 

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suliman said:
WORKMAN said:
How ironic is it that there are no short haired mastiff type seizing dogs in the continent of Asia today outside of the Indo/Paki region which coicedentally was occupied by Westerners? Why did these dogs spread nowhere else. The only big dogs in Asia remaining outside of the Indo/Paki area are the mountain and/or LGD types yet we are supposed to believe that these short haired mastiffs reamined only in the Indo/paki area?
Hello,

Well you just asked the question that I asked Gun in a different Way. See below the entire British empire.

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab181/suliman_gillani/map_of_the_british_empire_in_the_1920s.png

As you can clearly see the British Indian Empire included the Entire of Pakistan, India, Srilanka and Bangladesh. I have provided specific evidence in the other topic of Mastiff Type Dog presence in the Indus Valley of Pakistan. It has been found in Literature, Engraving, terracotta Figurines and excavations of remains of Mastiff type from these sites. Below is a Map of Pakistan marked with region where the Bully Kutta Still exits along the Indus River.

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab181/suliman_gillani/IndusValley.jpg

If indeed the Western Mastiff did develop the Bully Kutta. Why don’t you have any Large short Hair Mastiff type dog from Bangladesh, Srilanka and most of India??? (Apart from Indian Punjab and some Neighboring States, During British time nearly all of the Big game and the Tiger country in British India was further west expanding up to areas bordering modern day Nepal and Bangladesh and in Srilanka. That’s where they had these seizer type dogs, Majority of the Big Game trophy Hunters never even stepped their foot on the modern day Pakistan then why don’t we find large Bully Kutta type dogs their???
well, me personally i neither agree with workman and gun denying that india had larger mastiff types before british people arrived, (mainly used for hunting) nor do i agree with you suliman and shah, portraying the bully kutta as a dog that fell from the sky somewhere in pakistan, having no influence of large shepherds´mastiffs such as sarabi dogs etc. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan should not be forgotten. all these lands have giant LGD type dogs such as kangals, sarabi dogs, aksaray malakis, CAO types etc. and they melted togethers with native hunting dogs from india. so there we had a prototype bully kutta, but this dog was no fighting dog yet. it was more a multi-purpose dog (hunting & guarding). the culling for fighting began later and there the mixing took place. (butchers´alaunts and some other types the british took with them). i don´t think british people added more hunting types as they would not be useful for fighting and the prototype BK already had enough sighthound blood.

so in my opinion this map is more useful, as it shows the influence of large ancient mastiff types (shepherds´mastiffs) on the bully kutta.


i also still wonder why so many pakistani people claim that only they have "original bully kuttas" and indians don´t have them. it makes absolutely no sense!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
suliman said:
WORKMAN said:
How ironic is it that there are no short haired mastiff type seizing dogs in the continent of Asia today outside of the Indo/Paki region which coicedentally was occupied by Westerners? Why did these dogs spread nowhere else. The only big dogs in Asia remaining outside of the Indo/Paki area are the mountain and/or LGD types yet we are supposed to believe that these short haired mastiffs reamined only in the Indo/paki area?
Hello,

Well you just asked the question that I asked Gun in a different Way. See below the entire British empire.

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab181/suliman_gillani/map_of_the_british_empire_in_the_1920s.png

As you can clearly see the British Indian Empire included the Entire of Pakistan, India, Srilanka and Bangladesh. I have provided specific evidence in the other topic of Mastiff Type Dog presence in the Indus Valley of Pakistan. It has been found in Literature, Engraving, terracotta Figurines and excavations of remains of Mastiff type from these sites. Below is a Map of Pakistan marked with region where the Bully Kutta Still exits along the Indus River.

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab181/suliman_gillani/IndusValley.jpg

If indeed the Western Mastiff did develop the Bully Kutta. Why don’t you have any Large short Hair Mastiff type dog from Bangladesh, Srilanka and most of India??? (Apart from Indian Punjab and some Neighboring States, During British time nearly all of the Big game and the Tiger country in British India was further west expanding up to areas bordering modern day Nepal and Bangladesh and in Srilanka. That’s where they had these seizer type dogs, Majority of the Big Game trophy Hunters never even stepped their foot on the modern day Pakistan then why don’t we find large Bully Kutta type dogs their???
well, me personally i neither agree with workman and gun denying that india had larger mastiff types before british people arrived, (mainly used for hunting) nor do i agree with you suliman and shah, portraying the bully kutta as a dog that fell from the sky somewhere in pakistan, having no influence of large shepherds´mastiffs such as sarabi dogs etc. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan should not be forgotten. all these lands have giant LGD type dogs such as kangals, sarabi dogs, aksaray malakis, CAO types etc. and they melted togethers with native hunting dogs from india. so there we had a prototype bully kutta, but this dog was no fighting dog yet. it was more a multi-purpose dog (hunting & guarding). the culling for fighting began later and there the mixing took place. (butchers´alaunts and some other types the british took with them). i don´t think british people added more hunting types as they would not be useful for fighting and the prototype BK already had enough sighthound blood.

so in my opinion this map is more useful, as it shows the influence of large ancient mastiff types (shepherds´mastiffs) on the bully kutta.


i also still wonder why so many pakistani people claim that only they have "original bully kuttas" and indians don´t have them. it makes absolutely no sense!
 

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IamTitanium said:
the internet is full of stuff about BKs, including different claims about the size and weight of a true BK.
it can be read that true BKs are sometimes or even frequently 90kg and more than 90cm in size. other people say that these are made up stories and that huge BKs are not true bullies, but western Mastiff crosses, including German Mastiffs etc.
any opinions about it :?:

here indeed a huge Bully Kutta from pakistan.

if we compare it to this two dogs, you can see it is very different in build. it looks like two different breeds.

here another bully which is similar in type like the second one.


in my opinion the difference between the first and the other two dogs, is more than just, two different types of BKs!


shah said:
Well there is NO such thing as indian sindh or indian bully kutta i think this puneeth have on purpose misled u by not telling the truth behind these socalled indian bullys.

Upto this day i havent seen ONE single pure bk from india which was not imported from pakistan.

pic nr 1 is jogie whos bred and owned by MR KHAN QAYUM the most famous bk man in pakistan.

pic no 2 is a dog called michael who was imported to india from pakistan.

Micheal have mopped the floor whit any competition he met in india (mostly guldongs) at the age of 10 he still is undefeated champ and is regarded as a legend and best fighter of india.today many many dogs is offsprings of michael mostly crossed whit local bull terrs or pitbulls.

pic no 3 also have roots in pakistan but was imported to india. the guy holding him is the fraud who calls himself as the goodfAther of bullys.LOL :D LOL

same dog is in pic no 3 only here whit his real owner.


i cud go on and on and show u many more dogs in india whos imported direct from pakistan but ill let it be for now.

here is little info rwitten by a indian guy about the sindh dog it will tell u where the purest and best preserved bullys is found today.

8)
sunnyAK said:
shah, your post makes no sense at all. in 1900, the name pakistan didn't even exist. the land was part of India, which was a collection of british provinces under the direct sovereignty of the british crown, along with small states ruled by indian princes under british hegemony. when india obtained its independence on 1947-08-15, the area hitherto known as india was divided into two countries along religious lines. if there should be some kind of "ancient unchanged Bully Kutta" -something i don´t believe in :arrow: i mentioned earlier:"It is highly unlikely that it is an ancient unchanged breed. that's just not my idea of dogs. we don't have "pure, ancient & unchanged dogs" existing in some kind of "parallel universe" for 1000 years or even more.", it was no pakistani breed at all, but a native breed of the indian subcontinent. again, i don´t believe that there are pure unchanged breeds up til now, but to say bully kuttas were a pure pakistani breed and indian had no pure BKs, when pakistan as independent country didn´t even exist is grotesque. it is just a national pride thing.
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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
overread the personal issues between guys there, just try to get out what is fact, fiction and/or agenda:

IamTitanium said:
suliman said:
Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time. Following is my humble opinion about this topic.

Lets talk the History first. There have been two school of thoughts about the History of Bk's. One part thinks that the Bk was developed during the British Rule in the Subcontinent, developed from crossing of English dogs like Great Dane and Mastiffs. The other people are content with the Idea that its very ancient breed and going further more to the theories that western Mastiff's were created by dogs taken from this region by Alexander.

To me both are extreme's! Geographically near to the Bk region there has been presence of Mastiff Blood since ancient times but Wolf Type LGD Blood of Tibetan's, Caucassian's and Sage Kooche's etc. With BK being the Only short hair Mastiff in the region.

There is no denying the fact that in ancient literature Large Dogs from the Indian Subcontinent can be found. For instance

1) "Animals grow biggest in india ,from india comes the dog that are larger than all others."( Naturalis Historia by Pliny the elder 77CE)

2) "The Indian dogs are very large and even attack lions"( Ctesias,400BC)
[please note the author is mentioning the bravery of dogs by mentioning they attack not to be misinterpreted to conclude that they Kill!

3) Aristotle writes in his Book History of animalia 350 BC "They say that the Indian dog is a cross between the tiger and the bitch, not the first cross, but a cross in the third generation; for they say that the first cross is a savage creature. They take the bitch to a lonely spot and tie her up: if the tiger be in an amorous mood he will pair with her; if not he will eat her up, and this casualty is of frequent occurrence"
[Please note here that Aristotle is stressing on They say meaning that a famous fable of his time, please don't misinterpret this to think he confirmed this]

4) We can find mention in Religious Scriptures like Ramayana approximately 900 years BC .

Bharat the Brother of the God Rama was leaving for Ayodha which was an ancient city of India, which is now in the Faizabad district of Uttar Pradesh and was given such dogs by his maternal uncle the Kekeya king. The Kekeyan kingdom was the Western kingdom which is quite close the modern day region of the BK.

suliman said:
Ok now lets talk about the idea of the BK originating from the Western Mastiff stock, The BK is a Dry Mouth short coat Mastiff, unlike Majority of Western Mastiff that have a more dome type Skull and are heavy drooler's. Here is a list of dogs breed famous for drooling excessively.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/drool.htm

Dog's like the Great Dane, Mastiff, Neo, Dogue De Bordeux are very exotic even today
! Even to this day a common Village Breeder would not be able to find these Western dogs for Mating even he wants to and keep in mind 90% of the BK is kept in rural village areas of Pakistan. Our society has always been separated into casts, sects, Financial Statuses etc without any intermingleness amongst individuals of different groups. During the British Raj The Mastiffs, Danes etc were owned only by Royalty. Which the common man didn’t have any access to breed with.

However Let’s look at this more logically, The British ruled here for 90 years. If we take average age of a dog 9 years we would have 10 generations but realistically breeders can go into 10th gen in 12 to 20 years, breeding quickly at when dogs are 2 years Old.

So let’s just consider we are in the 20th generation of BK now from that time. This makes the transition period from one gen to another 4.5 yrs and 4 years is a prime age, peak time for breeding when breeders do breed here.

Now if we take a Bully go back up to 20 generations there would be 2097168 ancestors dogs in total (This is an estimated figure sometimes dogs do get repeated in the Pedigree, Majority of the breeding here is outcrossing. So for the calculation we are assuming all dogs were different). 1048576 males and 1048576 females. Now in order for the genes to considered for the English Blood the minimum amount should be 10% i.e at least 10% of the ancestors should be English dogs. 10% of the total 2097168 dogs would be 209716.8 dogs, Now again we also need to take into consideration the fact that every time we don’t need to cross a new dog, so some dogs can be bred 3 to 4 times in ancestry. So let’s say all the English dogs were bred four times in the ancestry so we divide 209716.8 with 4 = 52429.2 meaning a population of Fifty two thousand four hundred and twenty nine English Dogs in a span of 90 years.

The Kennel Club of Pakistan started registry in 1947, as soon as it got its affiliation with the Kennel Club (England). I got the Data for all the registered Western Mastiff type dogs from the Kennel Club of Pakistan dating from 1947 till Now. I was told in a letter from the President of the Kennel Club of Pakistan Mr.K.M Roy that not many people have these breeds and following is the total number of dogs
registered.

1. English Mastiff .............42
2. Neopolitan Mastiff ........31
3. French Mastiff..............12
4. Great Dane .................39

Now further lets look at it from a breeders perspective, let’s say the person gets hold of an English dog and breeds him with a local female. The first generation is 50/50 percent, the second would be 75% local, 25% English . By the time of the third generation the English Dog would be on the verge of being bred out of the line. If some percent of English Dogs were added with this type of breeding by the 20th gen there would not be any traces of them. Even with good pit lines breeders find them bred out and have to outcross a different line at times. See below this type of breeding

ow the BK to be developed from the English dogs, English dogs have to be introduced in several gens according to systematic breeding, which I find impossible to believe that locals either had the resources or the brains to have this carried out. Now one can argument instead of the locals the English did it, Ok then why there is no mention of it any where? English are pride taking people if they do something they take credit for it, where is any journal, any record, any statement, any writings that supports this. People say show us any written document in the last 2010 years about the breed, then we believe. I say show me anything authentic document from the time proving systematic breeding. So where did this English dogs theory come from and how can it be proved! Below is a plan of this type of systematic breeding.
suliman said:
Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time.

WORKMAN said:
ah those were the days when shah could make up bullshit romantic stories and outright lies to "stupid westerners" the name he so bestowingly called them. Then as more info started to come about and the things shah would rather have left in dark came to light as they always do shah's credibility and his username drifted into obscurity. With the exception of him attempting to send people computer viruses (cyber terrorism) he seemed to disappear. Until now after oozing from underneath his rock back into the public eye. What an honor to have such an honest upright member here.
 
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