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Discussion Starter #1
I' sure it's been covered, but I did a forum search and came up with every thread that had the word "stay" in it, so that wasn't helpful.

So far we have a few tricks...sit, down, over...and I've been trying to teach "stay" from the sit by just taking one step back at first, and then stepping forward and rewarding. However, he doesn't stay in "sit" for even that one step. We've been working on this for a week or so, and it doesn't seem to have changed at all. I'm afraid I'm teaching him that when I back up he should follow me.

Suggestions?

Cinder
 

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.... So far we have a few tricks...sit, down, over...and I've been trying to teach "stay" from the sit by just taking one step back at first, and then stepping forward and rewarding. However, he doesn't stay in "sit" for even that one step. We've been working on this for a week or so, and it doesn't seem to have changed at all. I'm afraid I'm teaching him that when I back up he should follow me.

Suggestions?
How old is your dog? is it a puppy or an adult? Puppies have a much shorter attention span and teaching a "stay" usually needs the attention span of an older puppy..

Generally, we teach the "stay" behavior after we have taught the "wait" behavior and the "come" behavior, and have seen how the puppy/dog is responding to those. Have you done that?

Also, I don't see much in the way of attention in your training. Some "checking in", "follow me", "walk alongside" and other basic attention exercises and games should balance out all the position work and static tricks.

Although you can find a lot of information on the Internet about this sort of basic training and socialization (just do a google search), you might want to consider a group class with a good trainer. Have you thought about enrolling with your dog in a beginner class?
 

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I had that problem with Kabota. Once I taught him that following me likely leads to treats, he wasn't too inclined to not follow me.

I started by not moving at all. Say "stay" and don't move. Then click and treat not moving on his part. Then rock backwards as if to step back, but don't move your feet. Click and treat not moving for that. Work your way up to one step.

Also, I start "stay" training with the dog laying down, not sitting. It's easier for a dog to move from a sit as opposed to a lay.
 

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I am teaching both my dogs to stay, and I am using the method out of Train Your Dog like a Pro by Jean Donaldson. She advocates doing 1 and 3 second stays before doing movement. One of mine is having trouble with the time stays, the other is a star student. I think we are going to start on the distance in the next couple of days.
 

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Duration, Distance, Distraction

First I work on duration (up to 15 seconds, adding a second with each repetition, going back to 1 second with no click if the dog breaks, and building back up) then, I add distance one step at a time - I step to the side as stepping backward looks like an invitation to come. When I add distance, I take duration back to 1 second and build back up for each additional step. Some dogs can do more than a second, but anytime the dog breaks, we go back to the beginning. Then, when I add distractions, again I go back to the beginning.
 

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Sadly, I don't remember how I taught a stationary stay with Wally. I only remember teaching stay on the move (i.e. we're moving, I cue "Stay" and he stops even if I keep moving) because I was told I was doing it "wrong" even though Wally was understanding perfectly. I think it was because they felt I was using the clicker "wrong" in teaching it. I would click him stopping his momentum as, to me, that was the start of the behavior. As such I wanted to tell him "yes, doing that so you stop moving is exactly right!" I was told that was wrong. *shrug*.

All I know, he stopped on a dime ever since I did it like that and that's how we got it.
 

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Hey there, Im new to this forum,
But i have experiecne with dogs :D

I say what should do is ask someone to help you
to take him on a leash and when you tell him to sit, stay and walk the other person will give it a pull back if he stands up and walks after you, at the same time you must tell him no..
I did not see fit to train my dog the stay command
A sit is enough to stay for a long period of time ...
But if you dont like this method you can just tell your dog to sit and repaeat few times while you take a step back,, after a few times stop repeating he will understand
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
OK, I see that I'm doing this too quickly. Having him stay in the sit or lay down is a good start and then the stepping to the side thing makes sense.
He is about 1 years old.
He is doing well on the leash...he understands "easy", meaning don't pull on me and "let's go". He also understands "wait" at all of the doors except the patio door...we haven't got that one down yet. Still working on that. I guess that is where all the fun happens. He has a great "come" command, he'll even come right away in dog parks with all that confusion.

I have looked into obedience classes and we'll have to see how that works with my job i work weird hours.

Thanks for any and all help.

Cinder and Sherlock
 

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OK, I see that I'm doing this too quickly. Having him stay in the sit or lay down is a good start and then the stepping to the side thing makes sense.
He is about 1 years old.
He is doing well on the leash...he understands "easy", meaning don't pull on me and "let's go". He also understands "wait" at all of the doors except the patio door...we haven't got that one down yet. Still working on that. I guess that is where all the fun happens. He has a great "come" command, he'll even come right away in dog parks with all that confusion.

I have looked into obedience classes and we'll have to see how that works with my job i work weird hours.

Thanks for any and all help.

Cinder and Sherlock
another tip, once he is staying right in front of you, when you do take a step back, keep your hand still in front of him. Just one step, extend your arm, and reward. This gets him used to your body moving, he stays focused on your hand, and learns quick he doesn't have to move when you do. Then add a step farther each time, just a brief stay, right before he breaks reward.
 

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OK :doh:, well duh on me, lol. Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were backing up from the heel position. But I get what you're saying now. You're pivoting in front of your dog then backing up. Nothing typically wrong with that method and I have used it many times, myself.


Still, I like to keep the path as direct as possible, if possible. And if the ultimate end-product is walking straight away from your dog in heel position then that's where I prefer to start teaching it from. Just my own personal choice. As other posters have suggested, backing away can occassionally be confused with coming to front, but whatever works best for you and your dog I suppose.



Also, since I don't think anyone else has mentioned it ... try to make sure you use a simple and clear 'release cue', CONSISTENTLY, before your dog is eventually allowed to move. Consistency is tremendously important here, yet often overlooked. And if you're using treats -- paying for position, ie. before release -- is important as well.
 

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Sadly, I don't remember how I taught a stationary stay with Wally. I only remember teaching stay on the move (i.e. we're moving, I cue "Stay" and he stops even if I keep moving) because I was told I was doing it "wrong" even though Wally was understanding perfectly. I think it was because they felt I was using the clicker "wrong" in teaching it. I would click him stopping his momentum as, to me, that was the start of the behavior. As such I wanted to tell him "yes, doing that so you stop moving is exactly right!" I was told that was wrong. *shrug*.

All I know, he stopped on a dime ever since I did it like that and that's how we got it.
Lots of different methods. If it worked for your dog, it wasn't "wrong"
 

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another tip, once he is staying right in front of you, when you do take a step back, keep your hand still in front of him. Just one step, extend your arm, and reward. This gets him used to your body moving, he stays focused on your hand, and learns quick he doesn't have to move when you do. Then add a step farther each time, just a brief stay, right before he breaks reward.
And you go back to him and reward in position. Don't confuse him by allowing him to come to you for the reward.
 

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The trick to the stay is placement of reinforcement. You must give your dog the treat in place, don't call him to you to give him the treat. I learned this a while back with Max as he was constantly braking his stay until I realized I was giving him a reward where I was, thus reinforcing him for breaking the stay. ;)
 

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In the obedience class we did with Biscuit, we used a clicker and the trainers said to mark at the "hardest" part of the stay (i.e. when you're the furthest you're going to get from the dog or when things are the most distracting), but not to reward until you get back to the dog. That worked pretty well.
 

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In the obedience class we did with Biscuit, we used a clicker and the trainers said to mark at the "hardest" part of the stay (i.e. when you're the furthest you're going to get from the dog or when things are the most distracting), but not to reward until you get back to the dog. That worked pretty well.

Yep. Feed the position, as the saying goes.
 

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I was told I was doing it "wrong" even though Wally was understanding perfectly
As far as I'm concerned if it works and it doesnt hurt the dog... there is no such thing as "doing it wrong"
 

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I think your doing to much, to quick. First, I would work only on stay. Do not do any other commands....except sit. say sit, and when the dog sits....wait 5 seconds....and I mean 5 full seconds....do this a lot. This will keep him in behavior. if you have problems here, you need to perfect this first.. Then take a treat and try to get him to move. what I mean is: move the treat, and if he comes to it. Tell him no, and sit him in the spot he was....do not reward sit here....provoke him again, do this till he stays....he may explore other behaviors....but do not get mad or fustrated...he's thinking and trying to figure out what gets the treat. Once he finally does stay....wait 5 seconds and rewards. I think in training we are taught to reward close in time to the behavior....thinking this makes the behavior stronger. but it only makes the dog learn that treats come immediatly and makes them a little hectic. Now, when he is staying with not following the treat...then add steps back.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
but it only makes the dog learn that treats come immediatly and makes them a little hectic.
I have certainly found this to be true. I will try working on just one thing and forget the rest of his "tricks" for now. They'll come back quickly when I start up again, after stay in "installed".

Cinder
 
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