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Which behavior should I change the cue for?

  • Stay would be easier to change

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • Stand would be easier to change

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Neither - just work on him understanding

    Votes: 2 50.0%
  • Both - develop new cues for each and re-teach him

    Votes: 1 25.0%

  • Total voters
    4
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Sometimes when I give a stand or stay cue - he gets confused and does the other. I think what's happening is that he's picking up the start of the word and then makes a leap as to which cue I'm going to give - and sometimes he makes the wrong assumption.

It seems I could help him by coming up with a different word for one of them. In your view, which one would be easiest to change the cue of?

This isn't the first time this has happened. Before, Wally had a hard time with lying down because the typical cue "down" was the first part of the cue for going downstairs on cue (amazingly, I named it..."downstairs") So he picked up the 'down' part and would be looking for stairs. He then would look up at me like...what do I do? I don't see any stairs!!

So "down" became "lie down" and it's never been a problem since (at least not until I learned about fold back)
 

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Do you use a hand signal when you ask him to "Stay"? I have a hand signal for both Stand and Stay, and they of course are different, which I use along with the verbal cue.

Also, my Stand command is short, whereas I draw out the word Stay. Just some thoughts.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Do you use a hand signal when you ask him to "Stay"? I have a hand signal for both Stand and Stay, and they of course are different, which I use along with the verbal cue.

Also, my Stand command is short, whereas I draw out the word Stay. Just some thoughts.

I do use a hand signal for stay. (My hand held out to him with my fingers wide open)

I like the idea of drawing out the word - thanks for the idea!
 

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If he's having trouble, and wants to jump into another behaviour, then after you say "stand" and then say "stay" quickly put your arm under him and block his front with the other arm and make him stay for a second, then praise and release.
 

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When I train pups I train them by hand commands and posture at first, with no verbal communication until praise is to be given to the dog/pup after they have done what I have asked through hand communication or just my posture towards them. Some dogs I train will not hear voice commands when they are off finding fowl but will almost always see my signals. So try hand commands for every command you have for your pup. It might take time but will resolve your problem. Good Luck

Darin
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Still working on it. He's okay with Stay - it's Stand that's giving problems. I think I'll have to re-teach this one. As it is, the hand signal (the one I used when I used to lure the position) will get him to stand up, but invariably, he'll start walking, and that's not right. I click the instant he starts getting up and treat him before he even starts to lift a paw to walk - not good enough it seems. Going to have to try another approach/timing.

So somewhere, maybe during the confusion, Stand equaled "get up and walk to my handler."

Drawing out "Stay" also helped. Thanks again for that piece of advice.

While I'm fixing up the Stand behavior again, I'll probably say the word "incorrectly" as to emphasize the "-and" part of the word, create enough of a sound difference to him, hopefully, and work on a better hand signal.
 

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I think what will solve your problem is to teach that "stand" has an automatic "stay" built into it. You don't say the word "stay" ever when asking the dog to stand.

Since he seems to understand what "stand" means. From now on, it will mean, "stand up and don't move until I release you." Don't click him until he has stood still for a second or two. Gradually stretch out the time you wait until you click. Remember to click/treat before you release. Anytime he breaks the stay segment of the stand command, he doesn't get clicked. As with the regular stays, he will always have to be released.

If he is really confused he may need to go back and practice the sit/stays and down/stays. With the dogs I train, "stay" is built into the sits and downs also. When I have a dog sit, he sits there until I release him. Same with downs.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Thanks, Trainer. I think I'll have to go into the built-in stay approach also.

I think this could work well for him. Since he understands the concept of staying - I think it will be easy to work this in. I'll make a mental note to delay the click. I think I get so "trigger happy" with the clicker to make sure I get the behavior the instant it happens that I forget about the possibilities of waiting a bit.

So teaching this will teach me too - a win-win situation.

Tucker is having trouble with "Release". Sometimes he'll break on command, other times he just looks at me confused. Got any suggestions?
The way I got it going is I'd click, treat, say the release word, then start walking/moving. This especially worked while on a walk (one of the things I trained outside first), so it was easier to do, say, "sit", c/t, release word, continue walk pattern every 10-15 feet or so, making for a LOT of repetitions in a single walk.

He got the idea that the release word means he can do something else and became an end-of-behavior marker on it's own.

That said, sometimes I have to repeat it again, not out of confusion, but hopes of getting another reward while in his current position. (especially if I train him when he's really, REALLY hungry!) :D
 

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Sorry to hijack the thread, but Tucker doesn't always come to me either. He'll come if he knows I have a really yummy treat, but sometimes I've put him in a down/stay, then release him and start to walk away and he just stays there. If I can find someplace that keeps me out of view (like behind a tree or a big rock) he'll usually come find me after a minute or so, but even indoors, he doesn't come reliably.
 

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Sorry to hijack the thread, but Tucker doesn't always come to me either. He'll come if he knows I have a really yummy treat, but sometimes I've put him in a down/stay, then release him and start to walk away and he just stays there. If I can find someplace that keeps me out of view (like behind a tree or a big rock) he'll usually come find me after a minute or so, but even indoors, he doesn't come reliably.
do you call him to come to you or do you just expect him to when you release him? i have two different commands for these. one which is 'okay!' for releasing whatever my dog is doing and then another command for recall or getting her to come to me. if you dont already call him this would be a good training combo to teach too, to get them to sit/down , stay, and then come :)
 

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I taught Atka to stand from a sit (which she was in as I stopped and had her at heel). I used three things for stand. I had her in heel position next to me and had her next to a wall. I used my left hand (which she will target) and I had a treat in it between my middle and ring finger and my left foot.

I would put my foot under her and slide it backward and she would stand up.. as she stood I would swing my left hand out to the side in front of her nose and deliver the treat. The wall kept her straight (one of those prevention is 9/10ths of the cure things.. she had to stay straight). I felt like I needed Ballet lessons.. and she stood for this hand signal far quicker than I could deliver at first beause it was two movements on my part.

After she got so she would stand for this hand signal I added the "Stand" command.

Now, I think the one thing I have impressed on my dog is if she is given a command she is to do that command until she is released or given another command. I also have taught her 'wait' which means hold still..more is coming!

I started to extend the time of her "stand" gradually and eventually started to step away from her. The deal was this: if you move your feet there are NO treats... NO clicks... She figured this out VERY fast. LOL

So that is what the stand command has become.. a hand swinging once out, palm facing dog. We have since graduated to her doing remote stands on command.. she can be 100 feet down the road ahead of me and I can ask for a stand and she will do it. I can do a "walking" stand.. where I swing my hand out when she is at heel and she will stop and stand even tho I never miss a stride and keep walking.

In all of this remember.. Stand is hard to do. They can move their feet and dogs want to move their feet if they are up. They don't stand around.. they sit or lie down if they are waiting around on something.

Stay is an entirely different hand signal and I only use this if I am leaving the dog and returning to her. I prefer "wait" if I am going to ask for more and NOT return to the dog.

If I were you I would keep stand and stay separate for awhile. Work on teaching the dog that any command you give it to be obeyed until release or another command is given.

While it sounds mean.. you don't want the dog thinking. You want the dog to do what you ask and do only what you ask until you ask for something else.

The dog is not to anticipate or to think, "Maybe I should do......"

I thought this was barbaric.. (what do you mean you don't want the dog to "think?"). However, after training a dog to work cattle I understood. The dog DOES think but must also obey and obey instantly when asked to and keep doing what you ask until you ask for something different.

This simple concept kept her from running a cow thru a fence or getting the whole herd in a ditther and going the wrong way!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
In all of this remember.. Stand is hard to do. They can move their feet and dogs want to move their feet if they are up. They don't stand around.. they sit or lie down if they are waiting around on something.
Really? I was just about to post that Wally just isn't getting that Stand means just pop up. Don't walk. Don't circle around and sit. Don't fold down (only problem with the fold back down - he realized just how easy it is to do from a standing position! :D Freaking smart dog...) Just stand there.

Makes sense, though. Standing up and waiting must seem like a waste of energy, especially after reading your post.

Thanks for the technique you used, btw. I'll try anything once and nothing else seems to be getting it.

The dog is not to anticipate or to think, "Maybe I should do......"

I thought this was barbaric.. (what do you mean you don't want the dog to "think?"). However, after training a dog to work cattle I understood. The dog DOES think but must also obey and obey instantly when asked to and keep doing what you ask until you ask for something different.
A lesson I'm trying to drive into Wally's head every day. He seems to be the anticipating type. I've heard that dogs considered highly intelligent do this and you have to keep a step ahead. Never was a problem before, but now he's letting more himself out - and this was one thing that came out.
 

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Smart dogs are often the hardest to train.

They learn the quickest but then get to thinking.... and then there is trouble. LOL

I know when Atka is thinking.. she starts to wag her tail with no real reason.. the wag indicates some thought is traveling around 'up there.'

If your dog is anticipating, try the "almost the same" game. For instance, if you relase from a crate with the word "OK" start saying "Oooohhhh FUDGE!" and "Oooohhhhh DARN!" and Ohhhhhhh RATS!" None of these are his release. Be prepared to shut the crate door if he goes to leave ANTICIPATING "OK"

You can do the same with other commands. He will get it pretty quick. If he does not listen to the WHOLE command, no reward!

Like I said on the "stand" thing.. Atka got it pretty quick when she also connected the dots between "not moving your feet" and "Food."

You can change the word to "Whoa" and yes.. that is standard "freeze" command for field trial dogs and hunting dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks, Elana.

I'm going to have to do all of this, likely including teaching "whoa". :D

It was funny today he was in the down, then I did staaaaaaaaay really dragging out the word.

When I got to sta.. he had started to pop up, just a twitch, but then aborted when he heard the drawn out sound :)

I'm so gonna have fun doing that Almost the Same game ;)
 

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I'm so gonna have fun doing that Almost the Same game ;)
Let use know how it goes and if Wally thinks it is fun... LOL

Last night I did the almost the same game for going out the door... Atka was not amused. The third time she sat down and made this drawn out barking talk noise the GSD's can do... as if to say, "Come on.. Gimme a BREAK.. this isn't even REMOTELY funny!"

Then we went to the Town's Main Street to work on Focus.. *sigh* we have a long way to go.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Let use know how it goes and if Wally thinks it is fun... LOL
Yeah, he didn't seem amused - the ears came forward and his eyes got big and he was like "What the **** was that about?!" :D

I think he'll catch on quick - depriving me of amusement...er I mean, learning not to anticipate commands ;)
 

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do you call him to come to you or do you just expect him to when you release him? i have two different commands for these. one which is 'okay!' for releasing whatever my dog is doing and then another command for recall or getting her to come to me. if you dont already call him this would be a good training combo to teach too, to get them to sit/down , stay, and then come :)
I made the mistake of using C'mere when he was a pup as an all the time phrase, so now he doesn't really respond to Come. I've recently been using Here! as my verbal command, but he still isn't great, even in a room without distractions. Tucker often gets too riled up to have him chase me, so I don't do that too often. Really, the only thing that works is a stuffed Kong; then he almost always comes when I ask.
 
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