Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Lately I've been pondering breeds and their exercising needs. It seems that, whenever I look up a breed the information varies from site to site, and it doesn't always make sense to me. For example. Some descriptions will say something like: "this breed has a lot of energy. This dog needs at least a 60 minute walk every day." IMO, 1x 60 min walk doesn't seem like alot of exercise. "This dog needs a garden" is also something that I read in almost any middle-sized - big dog breed description. Well, I live in Brussels, there's 1,000,000 people here and not alot of them have a garden. Yet they still own a husky, GSD, rhodesian ridgeback,... you get what I mean. So my questions are:

- how can you get a realistic impression on what type of exercise a dog of a specific breed will need? are websites trustworthy?

- what kind of dog do you have? how much exercise does your dog get? would you say your dog has medium exercise needs? high exercise needs?

- my dog Oscar gets 3-4 walks a day, each at least 30 minutes, of which 1-2 are off leash. I don't have a garden. Would you say this is sufficient for a 'normal' energy breed? or maybe even for a more demanding breed?

In the distant (very distant, lol) future, I would love to own a herding breed (I love border collies, aussies, and corgi's). By then my living circumstances will have changed. So I'm wondering how I can make an informed choice and a good judgement on whether I can give my (future) dog enough exercise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,018 Posts
I am getting a border collie eventually (2 years from now). I've been researching for over 5 years, going to trials, meeting the breed, talking to people with the breed. I think the best way to get a feel for a breed is to meet and talk to owners

The BCs I know vary wildly in amount of exercise they get. My friend ended up getting her BC puppy at the same time I got Mia and Mia ended up being much more energetic and demanding as a youngster (and destructive). Her dog can certainly go for a long time but is easier to settle than my 'easier' breed is.

There's also what a lot of the people I talk to call the 'border collie hype'. As in they must be constantly mentally and physically active and are the hardest breed ever to own. It's a reputation that just feeds on itself. A lot of these things are written with an average owner in mind, not a dog person that will be doing more than just throwing a dog in a yard and expecting it to play with themselves. Could be different with other breeds but that's what I've experienced with BCs. A lot is expectations of your dog and teaching them it's okay to settle, imo. Not that Mia is fantastic at settling but when she's in other peoples' hands if I'm gone, she is much less likely to settle because they try to keep her constantly entertained. So she expects to be constantly fed things to do and when she doesn't, she demands it. They give in to the demands because she's annoying and the cycle continues. Most people with BCs I know do about the same amount of things I do with Mia. I've gotten feedback from dozens on their exact schedules.

People tell me shelties are hyper, but mine were all very easy dogs for me. I had a coworker telling me how hyper and barky shelties are and I had to say 'they were the easiest dogs I've ever lived with'. Hyper to one person is no problem to another.

I have had 7 papillons so far. My little sister has one that is very calm and docile, and I have Mia, who is very hyper and high strung. Same breed, two individuals.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,946 Posts
First off, don't believe anyone who says "such and such breed NEEDS a yard (garden)." With proper exercise (physical AND mental), no dog NEEDS that. The problem is, a lot of owners (I would even say most!) don't take the time to exercise the dog physically and mentally, so they end up tossing the dog in the yard to burn off energy. This might help the problem, but a lot of breeds (especially BC's) aren't going to take kindly to that. They don't exercise themselves, even in a great big backyard.

I would describe my BC mix as medium to high energy. Most people would describe her as crazy hyper. We take weekly agility classes, weekly nosework classes, play and compete in disc, and often have agility trials on the weekend. We also do all kinds of clicker training, shaping, etc. Part of the reason I only have one dog is because I can't imagine devoting the same amount of time & energy to another dog. The backyard is used only as a potty area, and if I toss her out there alone for more than a couple of minutes, she will raise bloody hell.

My first question for anyone thinking of getting a BC is "What do you want to DO with your dog?" If there's nothing specific that you have in mind, then another breed might suit you better. If you're interested in taking up herding, agility, flyball, disc, or any other canine sport, then that might be an ideal situation for a BC.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,511 Posts
My guy is a mutt so nothing breed specific from me but I'd call him a medium energy level dog. He gets two brisk ~40 minute walks a day, 10-15 minutes of fetch/wrestling/tug in doors, and 10-15 minutes of training on an average day. One to two days a week he goes to day care where he has about 10 hours (2 of those are nap time though) to run and play as much as he wants. Some day he gets more some days he gets less, as long as there aren't too many days of less he's usually fine. If/when he feels he isn't getting enough he'll let me know and 5-10 minutes of play CAN settle him back down for a few hours.

He is always up for whatever you can throw at him though. Two hour walk around a lake in the heat sure thing, go home and nap for a few hours and he's ready to go again even if you aren't. But he will settle for a normal walk instead of another 2 hour hike just as well. I'm sure if I was more active and went for 5-10 mile runs everyday he'd be happy to come along, but I'm lazy and don't run and he's content with brisk walks and other activities instead.

I think with most dogs there IS a minimum you need to meet to keep them happy and healthy but anything above that they'll simply adjust to what you have to offer (with in reason).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,186 Posts
First off, don't believe anyone who says "such and such breed NEEDS a yard (garden)." With proper exercise (physical AND mental), no dog NEEDS that. The problem is, a lot of owners (I would even say most!) don't take the time to exercise the dog physically and mentally, so they end up tossing the dog in the yard to burn off energy.
QFT. In my neighborhood, you walk your dog OR you have a fenced in yard. As if dogs are doing the Olympics when you leave them alone.

I've read that the average of all dogs is 30-60 minutes a day, but I don't consider Kabota energetic at all (he may or may not be a BC mix, your guess is as good as mine) and he starts chewing on random things if he doesn't get at least an hour of walking per day. Then again, my last dog was a GSD mix and he was really high energy. Actually, he was a nightmare before age mellowed him out, so my perspective may be a bit skewed.

I think websites are a place to start learning. Then attend shows and trials, get to know owners and breeders and really get an education. A good breeder, the kind you want to buy your BC from, will match the puppy to your life. So if you're more low key, you'll get a more low key puppy. If you're planning on actually herding sheep or attending agility trials every weekend, you'll get a more active puppy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,018 Posts
I also take the ‘needs a job’ to mean not only high energy but also needing the human to be interacting with the dog, not the dog just doing their own thing. Some dogs are okay going to a dog park and just running and being fine but others will not play or run around if the owner is not participating. My dogs are like that- you throw them in a yard and they will just sit there and wait for you, they won’t play and exercise themselves. BCs and herders are often like this. A lot would much rather do something structured with their owner than play with other dogs at a dog park.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,332 Posts
IMO, 1x 60 min walk doesn't seem like alot of exercise
While I agree, that is WAY more than the average American (where much of the information is probably coming from) exercises. As reference, "The percentage of Americans who said they exercised for at least 30 minutes three or more days per week rose to 51.1% in 2010, from 49.6% in 2009. Three in 10 adults reported exercising for at least 30 minutes zero days per week, a slight improvement from 2009, but on par with 2008." Gallup Poll

When another poll asked what people did in the preceding 24 hour period (to get an idea of a typical day), "Only about 5% of American adults do some type of vigorous physical activity on any given day"

You have to figure that means a very large majority of people would consider a brisk 1 hour daily walk to be a fair amount of exercise (a leisurely stroll, maybe not but a brisk, arms moving, heart rate up walk, yes)

my dog Oscar gets 3-4 walks a day, each at least 30 minutes, of which 1-2 are off leash. I don't have a garden. Would you say this is sufficient for a 'normal' energy breed? or maybe even for a more demanding breed?
I think this is probably enough PHYSICAL exercise for the majority of dogs but most of the higher energy breeds would need some regular run time or more strenuous activity like hilly hiking, swimming etc. And of course, all dogs need mental exercise, but the working and herding breeds need it more to keep mentally calm.

Gardens (yards) are get for playing fetch and getting the zoomies, but IMO do very little towards a dog's exercise needs. Since you mentioned Ridgebacks as one of the high energy breeds, I'll use them as an example. Ridgebacks tend to be either on or off. "On" can mean full out running for 90-120 minutes in a healthy, conditioned dog or 4-5 hours of fast paced hilly hiking (Chester has regularly out-hiked a fit ACD) but then "Off" in the house is very calm, very quiet, very easy-going. However, they aren't super demanding because they don't have the "twitchy" kind of energy that some of the herding dogs have and skipping a day of exercise isn't as likely to result in a destroyed house :) Chester and Luna both are high-energy breeds; we hiked for 1 hour yesterday and when we got home, after panting and cooling down time, Luna curled up on the couch and Chester ran circles around the backyard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,018 Posts
However, they aren't super demanding because they don't have the "twitchy" kind of energy that some of the herding dogs have and skipping a day of exercise isn't as likely to result in a destroyed house
Then there's people like me that find herding breed focused energy MUCH easier to manage than other high energy dogs. A husky would be terrible for me. A bully breed would be terrible for me. A Weimeraner- bad. I could go on and on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
I have two dogs. One neutered male border collie/lab mix. One 14 week female puppy, rottweiler/lab mix. Most of the sites I use are pretty accurate about dogs personalities. Both of my dogs need lots of exercise. My puppy isn't ready for full exercise yet, but she will need alot when she is a little older. I live in a townhouse with no yard. Which means I go out to a field, park, river, wherever to ensure my dogs get their exercise. They also walk everyday with me. My dogs do not mind being in a small townhouse with no yard. I take them out three times a day for an 1/2 hour to 1 hour during winter, and all day when weather is good and I'm not working. Puppy isn't ready for more than that yet. Once she is a little older, we will be out on longer walks and playtime. I find that when my puppy has her zoom zooms I take her out to play/walk. The zoom zooms is when your puppy/dog has an explosion of energy and needs to burn it off. There are all kinds of activities to do with your dogs to get them the exercise they need. There is agility, cani-cross, hiking, swimming, cart pulling, just to name a few. You can tell if your dog has had enough exercise, when you get home, they lay down, and/or go to sleep. Don't exhaust your dog, there is such a thing as too much. When your dog is panting after exercise, the further the tongue hangs out the more tired he is. If it is all the way out, your dog has had too much, and may not even be able to drink water, so be careful not to overdue. Also, training, obedience, etc also helps tire your dog. It may not seem like much physical exercise, but mental exercise is tiring for them too. If your dog is pacing, he needs to go get exercise. Border Collies are very smart, and need mental stimulus as well as physical exercise. My fav dog trainer is on You Tube ZakGeorge. He has border collies. Herding dogs will try to do just that, with other pets, children, even adults. My border collie/lab mix likes to tracking , hiking, and swimming the most. He hates fetch. He has no interest in hoofed animals. So not all dogs follow their breed types. My puppy is too young yet to see what she likes best, but she definetly has more energy than my first dog at that age. Just do your homework, and keep in mind your lifestyle when choosing your dog. A tired dog is a good dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
You ask some fantastic questions! If only all future dog owners would do this kind of research!

In all honesty, the best place to find good information on any given breed is the national breed club and/or a good, reputable breeder. They'd best be able to tell you the best type of exercise each breed does best with (ie. a long walk, vs. running, vs. playing with other dogs), and how much.

I say this because I own Borzoi. This is a breed with an energy level lower than a herding breed, or a working dog. But, despite that they tend to be laid-back to the point of laziness, they still need exercise to stay in shape. And, they are very large dogs, so a large fenced yard (garden) is best, IMO. They *can* do okay with a dedicated owner who walks them for 45 minutes to an hour a couple times every day. But, IMO, if you want good, solid muscle and bone development, they need to be able to run hard, and play with other dogs. I feel that is ging to lead to a well-developed Borzoi, both physically and mentally.

The other thing you mention is the off-leash exercise you do with your current dog. I personally do not recommend this with sighthounds, and most people in North America would agree. But I know that many Europeans have a different view of this, so it would be important to discuss that with a breeder. They'd be able to best advise in that realm. I know you did not express interest in a sighthound breed, but I thought I'd put that out there for consideration, not only for you, but for anyone else who might read this, with the same questions!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,707 Posts
Gardens (yards) are get for playing fetch and getting the zoomies, but IMO do very little towards a dog's exercise needs. Since you mentioned Ridgebacks as one of the high energy breeds, I'll use them as an example. Ridgebacks tend to be either on or off. "On" can mean full out running for 90-120 minutes in a healthy, conditioned dog or 4-5 hours of fast paced hilly hiking (Chester has regularly out-hiked a fit ACD) but then "Off" in the house is very calm, very quiet, very easy-going. However, they aren't super demanding because they don't have the "twitchy" kind of energy that some of the herding dogs have and skipping a day of exercise isn't as likely to result in a destroyed house :)
I like the on/off description. I would say my dogs are probably medium-ish energy. They could go all day outside if that was an option, especially if swimming is involved! But seem pretty satisfied with our 1.5-2 mile brisk walks in the evening paried with rough housing sessions, fetch and chase in the backyard. They pretty much sleep the entire day other than their random play sessions with each other, I get home, we go for our walk, play outside for awhile, then chill the rest of the evening, some playing and training here and there. We do more with them on the weekends and they are more than game for that. We go to the dog park or go for a couple walks or go to some hiking trails or spend the day out at my parents lakehouse. And after any of those activites they are guarenteed to crash in the house.

They both seem to have a really awesome "off" switch in the house. Which is kind of surprising because Luke is a 2 yo Lab/Golden mix and Zoey is guessed to be a 7 month old Plott hound mix. I always hear about how Labs don't mature and are crazy until they are like 5...Luke missed that memo for sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
You ask some fantastic questions! If only all future dog owners would do this kind of research!

In all honesty, the best place to find good information on any given breed is the national breed club and/or a good, reputable breeder. They'd best be able to tell you the best type of exercise each breed does best with (ie. a long walk, vs. running, vs. playing with other dogs), and how much.

I say this because I own Borzoi. This is a breed with an energy level lower than a herding breed, or a working dog. But, despite that they tend to be laid-back to the point of laziness, they still need exercise to stay in shape. And, they are very large dogs, so a large fenced yard (garden) is best, IMO. They *can* do okay with a dedicated owner who walks them for 45 minutes to an hour a couple times every day. But, IMO, if you want good, solid muscle and bone development, they need to be able to run hard, and play with other dogs. I feel that is ging to lead to a well-developed Borzoi, both physically and mentally.

The other thing you mention is the off-leash exercise you do with your current dog. I personally do not recommend this with sighthounds, and most people in North America would agree. But I know that many Europeans have a different view of this, so it would be important to discuss that with a breeder. They'd be able to best advise in that realm. I know you did not express interest in a sighthound breed, but I thought I'd put that out there for consideration, not only for you, but for anyone else who might read this, with the same questions!
Oh yes, I love Borzoi. They look so regal and elegant. Not a breed you see alot around here, I saw one at a dog show not long ago, and that's about it. I hadn't considered them yet!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,713 Posts
Lately I've been pondering breeds and their exercising needs. It seems that, whenever I look up a breed the information varies from site to site, and it doesn't always make sense to me. For example. Some descriptions will say something like: "this breed has a lot of energy. This dog needs at least a 60 minute walk every day." IMO, 1x 60 min walk doesn't seem like alot of exercise. "This dog needs a garden" is also something that I read in almost any middle-sized - big dog breed description. Well, I live in Brussels, there's 1,000,000 people here and not alot of them have a garden. Yet they still own a husky, GSD, rhodesian ridgeback,... you get what I mean. So my questions are:

- how can you get a realistic impression on what type of exercise a dog of a specific breed will need? are websites trustworthy?
I agree with the person who said the club sites have the best information. Clubs are dedicated to the breed and not to just animals.
I advise going to dog parks, stores, anywhere dogs and their owners gather and chatting with them. Each dog is an individual however after you have talked to enough of them you will get a feel for the breed.

- what kind of dog do you have? how much exercise does your dog get? would you say your dog has medium exercise needs? high exercise needs?
I have a siberian husky and miniature american shepherd. I would say both are medium to low for their breeds. I have a rather laid back husky - not typical of the breed. She is okay with her walks varying (mine and DH's schedules are varied) in length and time of day. She does fine if she only goes out for 45 minutes total for a day (but not for 3 days in a row) and she is fine with 4-5 hours of walking, dog park, stores, etc. In general she usually goes out about an hour walking a day, a "while" (we leave when the dogs stop running around and go to the gate - usually about 15 minutes) in the dog yards (I live in an apt. with 3 dog yards people can let their dogs off leash in) and playing with her flirt pole a few times a week if we don't get the hour walk in. I say this is medium b/c as previously mentioned most people don't walk for an hour a day. With this however your average husky owner would tell you an hour isn't enough for a husky and my dog is grossly underexercised and for most members of the breed they are right - but Misty doesn't demonstrate anything that says she is. She sleeps all day (literally 8 hours) while my husband and I are working/sleeping (I work nights). She doesn't destroy anything, she doesn't bark/howl/talk. Just naps on the couch. She listens (as much as a husky will) and just hangs out. So like it was mentioned about the pap and border collie - sometimes you get anomalies.
With my mini - I'd say low. If she could figure out how to do her business without going outside she would. She wants to chase Misty for about 10 minutes a few times a week and that's it. She can run (she can outrun most dogs) and will at the dog park - but doesn't care to walk. She wants to sit next to you, be loved on and that's it. Also weird for a herding breed.
- my dog Oscar gets 3-4 walks a day, each at least 30 minutes, of which 1-2 are off leash. I don't have a garden. Would you say this is sufficient for a 'normal' energy breed? or maybe even for a more demanding breed?
I'd say you go above and beyond your average owner. Your average dog IMO, is lucky to go out for 15 minutes twice a day - even if they need a few hours.
I agree that the descriptions written "needs yard" is for your average owner that will just put the dog out there (which is most Americans). The only true advantage having a yard has over not having one is that you can put off picking up dog waste if you want to.
In the distant (very distant, lol) future, I would love to own a herding breed (I love border collies, aussies, and corgi's). By then my living circumstances will have changed. So I'm wondering how I can make an informed choice and a good judgement on whether I can give my (future) dog enough exercise.
With this kind of research I think whatever breed, border collie included, you settle on will be one lucky dog.

Then there's people like me that find herding breed focused energy MUCH easier to manage than other high energy dogs. A husky would be terrible for me. A bully breed would be terrible for me. A Weimeraner- bad. I could go on and on.
Exactly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,674 Posts
I can't tell yet what my dog's exercise needs will be as an adult, since he's still a puppy and sometimes refuses to go on walks at all -- but tonight we played in the back yard for about a half an hour, then we went to the park and walked for an hour, and he's spent!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,262 Posts
We have an 11-month-old standard poodle. They are described as "moderate to high energy" but I find her very manageable for our laid back (um, lazy) habits. She gets two 40-60 minute walks, 15-30 minutes of fetch and running in the yard, and 15-20 minutes training (in addition to the practice we do on walks and in the yard). Since there are two of us, we can split the exercise requirements. After her spay, she was on limited activity for almost two weeks (we gradually increased the time and distance for her walks, but I wouldn't let her run free until after her post-surgery check up). It wasn't until the last few days that she got antsy.

Her level of exercise is about what I expected and wanted, but I wouldn't consider her to have high exercise needs. To me, high energy / high exercise would be a dog that needed to run an hour or more a day. Our neighbor jogs with his visla every morning - that's not something I could do.

For realistic breed descriptions, I tend to look at breed club web sites, and in my mind more importantly, breed-specific rescue sites. I figure that the rescues have a strong interest in making sure the breed, in general, is a good fit for a potential adopter so their descriptions present a balanced perspective. Before we decided on a standard poodle, I posted on a breed-specific forum and visited a local breeder. I was able to get good information from folks who actually lived with the breed - and importantly, individual dogs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,301 Posts
I have a 3 year old BC, she is either medium or high energy for her breed, she gets at least 2 hours a day, which is actually what a BC should be getting a day, or so i read on a site, she can and has gone for hours at a time, even in summer, she is always fetching a ball no matter where she is, she lives to play fetch, she does not care what the weather is doing, in the snow she went non stop for about 2 hours, this was fetching a football, she had already been playing in the morning before this, she does not play by herself, she wants someone to play with her, she does not play with any dog apart from my auntie's BC sometimes, she would rather fetch a ball, one of my neighbours calls her the mad dog, my auntie has a BC and Poppy gets no more than an hour a day, and Poppy is very happy with this, Poppy gets one walk a day, running after a ball, so if you comapre Holly to Poppy, than Holly is mad!, i now quite a few BC owners and most of there dogs don't get anywhere near as much play time as Holly does, so going by that Holly is high engery and a mad dog!, i also live in the UK, so again different owners, you may not think she is high engery but i have had many people say wow she is crazy then, i love that Holly is always ready to play no matter what.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,593 Posts
most everyone covered everything else so ill just answer the questions:

- how can you get a realistic impression on what type of exercise a dog of a specific breed will need? are websites trustworthy?
~to me, the best way is to meet some of them and learn about them through interacting. read as much as you can and i know its a bit conflicting at times, but try to take things with a grain of salt.

- what kind of dog do you have? how much exercise does your dog get? would you say your dog has medium exercise needs? high exercise needs?
~i have 2 great danes. my dogs get minimal exercise... (im such a bad dog owner) but my dogs dont do much. i dont have a yard, and even when i take them to someones house who does, its 2 laps running and lay down and sleep. they really dont do much. a trip to the dog park for lexi once a week is about all, and thats what she does there too... sleep.... *sigh*

- my dog Oscar gets 3-4 walks a day, each at least 30 minutes, of which 1-2 are off leash. I don't have a garden. Would you say this is sufficient for a 'normal' energy breed? or maybe even for a more demanding breed?

i would say its sufficient in the physical exercise category. many breeds (especially little more demanding breeds, intelligent dogs, herders, etc.) will need lots of mental stimulation as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
647 Posts
"- how can you get a realistic impression on what type of exercise a dog of a specific breed will need? are websites trustworthy?"

Breed descriptions can give you an idea, but personally, I find them as trustworthy as stereotypes. I'd say the only way to have a realistic knowledge of a dog's temperament is to visit shelters and adopt an adult dog.

"- what kind of dog do you have? how much exercise does your dog get? would you say your dog has medium exercise needs? high exercise needs?"

Canadian Inuit dog. Definitely high energetic needs. He gets around 2 hours of exercise (i.e. two really fast paced walks...more like 3 hours during the weekend), with random runs in an empty yard nearby. + Sledding in the winter. And even then, he gets little energy outbursts some times and he is then harder to put to "bed" than a 6 mo old with a tummy ache.

"- my dog Oscar gets 3-4 walks a day, each at least 30 minutes, of which 1-2 are off leash. I don't have a garden. Would you say this is sufficient for a 'normal' energy breed? or maybe even for a more demanding breed?"

That's a good regimen. For a more demanding breed, maybe the same amount of time but going for 1 hour walks twice would be more efficient?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,719 Posts
Biscuit is a retriever/herder mix muttinsky. She's 15 months old and I would say she's medium-high energy, in the sense that she needs what I consider to be a lot of exercise, but she has a great off-switch and is very laid-back in the house. My husband and I both work full time and she's not too much dog for us, but she does take up a good chunk of our non-working time.

She gets a 45 min walk or 3-mile run in the morning, 30 min walk at midday, and 45 min walk in the evening, and often a 20 minute fetch session in our building's courtyard in the evening as well. If we don't run in the morning, we'll usually play fetch in the ballfield near us (one of these days I'm going to get a ticket for that...). Sometimes the morning and/or evening walk is a dog park park trip, but the amount of romping that happens at the dog park varies greatly these days and B has gotten a bit snippy with resource guarding at the dog park, so we've cut back on that. We also send her to daycare at least once a week for a few hours, which she loves.

We also spend about 15 minutes every day or two practicing training and tricks. I think we're going to sign up for agility classes this summer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
385 Posts
My mallie girl is a werido. She can go on a walk for 30-45 mins and she is out the rest of the day. She likes to be lazy. Though on walks she is a completely different dog. I grew up with BC's ours had to go on 5-6 mile walks before being calm down. Maggie's energy seems to be different. She is so calm and rather just sit and chill with us.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top