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I know everydog person has heard of the Coren dog intelegence ranking scale. BUT do you think it is accurate? I do not. Coren asked obedience judges on how smart certian dog breeds are. Now have obedince judges trained every breed of dog out there? probally not. Somebreeds you can understand are high up in the scale but other breeds i don't understand why they aren't higher.

Here are the top ten smartest dogs- (acording to Coren)
1.Border Collie
2.Poodle
3.German Shepherd
4.Golden Retriever
5.Doberman Pinscher
6.Shetland Sheepdog
7.Labrador Retriever
8.Papillon
9.Rottweiler
10.Australian Cattle Dog

Here is my opinion- bcs of corse are on top and i feel they schould be. I have never met a dumb bc. they always impress me on how smart they are.
poodles- i have heard a lot about dumb poodles from friends, but o have seen many smart poodles too. but i don't know if they schoul be #2

gsd- they are smart but if you want a good one, i have heard they are trained differenty. Their brains haven't impressed me.
golden retriver- met quite a few dumb goldens, but it is probally cause of thier silly nature. if you go to a obedince trial they are everywhere! i understand why they make the top 10. they are ez to train.

Now the lab. I have one, and i thought he was smart, be now he looks dumb compared to my aussie. some labs need time for new commands to sink in. i have talked to many lab people and they always tell me how dumb thier lab is. mine is not a problem solver and he only uses his head when he wants to steal food of the table. but why are they #7?

The aussie. Everyone knows aussies are know for their merle coat and, guess what, BRAINS! by why are they like #42? have an explantion? Aussies learn very quickly and mine is always looking for something to outsmart. Mine is sure a problem solver, but that is because aussies are made to think fast on thier feet so the sheep stay toghter.

I belive the coren scale is not correct. what are your opinions? how to do you feel about your breed's intelegence? I know some dogs aren't bred to be smart, but some breeds it is offensive to be #46.
 

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I think it's a pretty accurate list of biddable breeds -- breeds that generally want to please their owner -- but I don't think it's possible to accurately rank all breeds by intelligence. That said, I have a papillon, and she is definitely quicker at learning new commands and at problem-solving than any other dog I've had (mostly spitzes).
 

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These lists always annoy me. I think that different breeds have different kinds of intelligence. These rankings give the highest marks to the most biddable breeds, as Crantastic said. But what about the breeds whose "intelligence" lies elsewhere than their biddability? Say, for example, the livestock guardians. They may not be the most easily trained, but they are much better at guarding sheep than the BC. If you graded intelligence by guarding ability, then the Kuvasz would be much more intelligent than the BC. Same goes for the intelligence to flush out game, or retrieve a bird in the water. I think that the people who compile these lists need to do a much better job of defining what they are measuring and compare apples to apples rather than just putting out a "smartest" dog list.
 

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I know everydog person has heard of the Coren dog intelegence ranking scale. BUT do you think it is accurate? I do not. Coren asked obedience judges on how smart certian dog breeds are. Now have obedince judges trained every breed of dog out there? probally not. Somebreeds you can understand are high up in the scale but other breeds i don't understand why they aren't higher.
I belive the coren scale is not correct. what are your opinions? how to do you feel about your breed's intelegence? I know some dogs aren't bred to be smart, but some breeds it is offensive to be #46.
I don't put much value on Coren's opinions. For one thing, his tests assume that what is important to humans should be important to dogs - a wide problem with people trying to rank intelligence in non-humans. Another problem is that when Coren was doing his list, Aussies were not yet an AKC breed and most of the obedience judges he ask were unfamiliar with them.
 

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Well of course its not accurate! Lol malinois should be #1 ! :D

Honestly its all opinion. I feel all of the herders are brilliant.
 

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I don't know if we have an individual of freakish intelligence or what, but our PUG is by far the most intelligent dog I've ever seen. He has an extremely high "problem solving" ability. He understands his relation to objects, and their relation to each other.

For example: He uses his paws to reach out-of-the way objects, like most dogs...but unlike any of our other dogs (including our GSD, supposedly ranked at #3), he bends his wrists and manipulates the object instead of just pawing blankly at it. Same with opening doors - he doesn't do an exaggerated "digging" motion, he flexes or extends his wrists in order to best interact with the object. If you try to close a door on him, you're not going to see him thrusting a muzzle into the gap. You're going to see a white paw dart out and GRAB the door as it's closing.

Playing "hide and seek" just now, the pug - who has a nose the size of a dime, and only one eye (bad accident) - found me 99% of the time. Not because he could smell, see, or hear me, but because he sees the door ajar and runs to look between the door and the wall. Or he'll notice a basket blocking a corner, and walks over to peer behind the basket. With our other dogs, including the GSD, I put a laundry basket in a corner and hide behind it, and they'll be looking for a long time.

But...pugs aren't even in the top 50! I consider a dog's ability to understand and manipulate objects and problem solving a MUCH better indicator of intelligence than a "willingness to please".
 

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I don't think it's possible to be entirely accurate. For every dog studied to start off on the same level, you would have to account for all the variables (i.e. different feeding programs, different training techniques, different socialization). You could probably argue that people who raise/train their dogs a certain way might gravitate towards a certain breed or type.

Also, wouldn't obedience judges be more likely to consistently see the breeds in the top ten? I haven't heard of many shih tzus or bloodhounds competing in obedience.
 

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It depends..
Would a Border Collie be the most intelligent Guard dog?
Are you looking for a dog that can solve a rubix cube.. and is that what you base your dog intelligence ranking scale on..
 

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I think it's a pretty accurate list of biddable breeds -- breeds that generally want to please their owner -- but I don't think it's possible to accurately rank all breeds by intelligence. That said, I have a papillon, and she is definitely quicker at learning new commands and at problem-solving than any other dog I've had (mostly spitzes).
One caveat to the biddable statement..... ACDs are FAR FAR FAR from biddable
 

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I have met a very dumb BC before and I have owned a very very dumb sheltie. Not being mean, it is the truth. Trey was the dumbest dog I've ever met. Mia and Summer are the same breed and while both are biddable, Mia blows Summer out of the water when it comes to problem solving ability. I will say that my papillons have been very smart and better problem solvers overall than any other dogs I've had.

I will say that test generally favors breeds I like. Every breed I or my family have ever owned (or any mix of breeds) is in the top 10 on the list. That always struck me as odd.

You can't really objectively rank dog intelligence.
 

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I agree there are differnt kinds of intellgance(like book smarts/street smarts in people lol) but when I think of intelligent breeds, the breeds job doesnt really come into the picture, retrieving, guarding, herding etc.. thats INSTINCT, not intelligence. when I think of intelligence I think of a dogs ability to learn(nor biddability, just ability to learn new things, there is a difference), the abilty to think outside the box, and the ability to take seperate things from the past and put them together in new situations.

my Terrier X is not biddable at all, but he is very smart..not as smart as my herding dogs, but he's not stupid.

my Toller...lol lets just call her "special", she is very biddable and easy to train though.

my BC's..VERY smart, I barly have to train them, all they have to do is watch something and wala, they now know how to do it lol they can put 2 + 2 together easily. just for 2 examples: Happy was super muddy, she HATES bathes, so I looked at her and said "well, you can take a 5 minut rinse now, or I can stick you in a crate for an hour till the mud falls off, your choice" she promptly ran into the bathroom and I found her sitting in the tub. I was trying to get a dog in from the yard at work, a dog that was playing games, we have a shed in the cornor of the yard that dogs will run behind..whcih looses us because we can only cover one side..well this dog ran behind the shed..I went bolting to block one end, and without a word from me, Misty went bolting to the opposite end and blocked it, and she held her ground, did not move or let that dog out until I had the leash on.

my ACD X GSD's..I dunno where they would fall lol, Gem is EXTREMLY smart, easiliy on par with the BC's..she is a little more self serving though lol the BCs only use their intelligence for good, Gem uses it for whatever she feels like, weather or not I agree. Gypsy is not nearly as bright...she is great, super sweet and well behaved, very biddable etc.. just not that bright lol I cant really comment on full ACD's or GSD's lol

the Labs and Goldens on thetop 10 list have always baffled me lol, Labs sure, but no offence to golden owners(I actually like goldens) but I have yet to meet a smart one! very biddable absolutly, but intelligent? most of the labs I have met are pretty dense too, but the full hunting bred ones I have met are VERY smart.
 

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lol I could see that! so far Gem has opened the twist off cap on the milk jug and had herself some milk(after pulling off the safety seal of course), tried to turn on the taps(hasn't quite figered out HOW yet), tossed a facecloth over the drain in the tub trying to plug it(I dont have a plug for my tub, I just stuff a face cloth in it), and when I put her in an ex-pen, she escaped, pounded on the door to get my attention, then ran back in the pen and closed the gap she escaped through and waited for me to come "rescue" her...and she is only 6 months old.
 

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I don't put alot of stock in gereralizations. I have a GSD who is as dumb as a post but dearly loved. My smartest dog was a GSD/Lab cross. If I showed him something once he would pretty much have it. Show him twice and it was confirmed. He was a good problem solver too.
 

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I agree with Max... Where are Mutts on this scale. However, I still want someone to start breeding designer, Golden-colored GSD/Labs :)

@Rourk: Ian Dunbar demonstrated to Cesar how quickly it was possible to train a Pit...
My nephew has a Staffy (which I lump with Pits, in admitted prejudice :) )... The Staffy is 95 lbs of sweet muscular play... and my Nephew treats him like a goofball... and the dog accommodates. I came for a visit last Spring and taught the dog to read 4 Flashcards (four new commands for existing behaviors) in 5 minutes. Maybe not as smart as a Lab or my GSD/Lab... but it sure looks like a photo-finish.

As folks have been saying, the list is based on biddable dogs... but some dogs need reward/motivation that's different than a pat on the head or a smile :).
 

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I also wonder what particular dogs they use to determine this ranking....ones owned by the general public or highly trained dogs, and trained by who? I know a couple of dogs that are obviously quite smart, but their owners haven't taught them to do anything at all, so unless you're watching close, or doing some training games they look dumb as a post! One of them you can stand and say "sit" or "down"until you're blue in the face and it stares at you like you're an alien, a casual glance would suggest the dog is kinda dumb.
Same as human intelligence tests, some are partially based on cultural learning....would someone who lived in the deeps of an african jungle do well on it. Nope. Is it possible that they are highly intelligent...you betcha.
I just have a hard time trusting any of these kinds of tests.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
So you all say the list is wrong, i can understand too because this is one person's opinion. Also this list is like 10 years old and breeds that were not popular probally weren't at trails as much as popular breeds. Aussies have been climbing the ranking scale.( good and bad thing)

So it sums up to each dog, not the breed, to see the brains of a dog. Some dogs like a lot of hounds weren't meant to be very dependant or willing to please beacuse of thier purpose unlike herders who want to work for master and have to think on thier toes.

I saw that a lot of you were being bias of your breed. It is fine to mention your breed in your response but i hate seeing "whatever breed is the smartest in the world" with out info to back you up.

I wish the general public would learn that this list is incorrect. some people may look up a breed and say it's dumb, when it really isn't.

Also is there any way to test puppy intelligence? The puppy i get, maybe in 3 years? if my dog get her CH by then, i want to be on the brighter side, becuase i like smart dogs, it is fun to train complex tricks.
 

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I've read multiple articles about pit bulls winning more intelligence awards than any other breed. I agree with the border collie though. I think the smartest breed is whatever one that dog in the Bud Light commercial is. Any dog that can bring me beer is a genius.
 

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I've read multiple articles about pit bulls winning more intelligence awards than any other breed. I agree with the border collie though. I think the smartest breed is whatever one that dog in the Bud Light commercial is. Any dog that can bring me beer is a genius.
Lol, at our last seminar, we got together every evening in the hotel lobby. Several beer coolers around, some of the officers taught Greta to "get me a beer". The joker she is, she had a ball opening any cooler getting a beer for anyone asking. Well she crushed one and when everyone laughed and hollered, she would bust about every third can lol. Now she helps herself to any unattended cooler :)
 
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