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I have a 16 weeks old Mastiff 'Turbo' and we decided to get him a playmate so we drove 4 hrs spent $100. on gas and tolls to get there...at first glance 'Lena' a 16 week St. Bernard looked and acted ok.....but when we took her to the vet...she was infested with fleas and had bacterial ear infections.....so she was put on a pill to rid her of the fleas, antibiotics and ear wash to sooth and clean her ears.... $77.19. The breeder had given us $100. off for the gas and trip but when I sent her the vet bill and asked if she could at least send $50. to help with the cost....she refused....told me if I didn't want the pup to bring her back. What do you think? is it unreasonable to ask for help on the bill for her meds? The vet suggested we start over on the shots because her record keeping wasn't clear and we just want to make sure she has all she needs. I was concerned with all the fleas on this pup and no heart guard....so...we love 'Lena' and we would never take her back. When I went to the kennel to see the parents there were dogs starved for attention hanging on the fence so pitiful and other covered with raw spots due to fleas...she said she was using a spray and they must have broken out....so sad. What can I do to warn people about this breeder?

Just wanted to add....Turbo and Lena hit it off right off the bat...it was like love at first sight! ha ha he won't go out without her and she won't go out without him....they romp and roll and she bites his ears and lips when she has had enough of him mounting her....(he has turned into a Macho dog...lol) I am going to get him neutered in the next month so maybe the testosterone levels will drop and he won't be so driven...she has to get all her shots before she can be spayed. I thought for a moment about the having Saint Mastiff's....awww they would be so cute!! but with the economy not sure they would sell...I just want to give Turbo and Lena both good lives as they will only be with us 8 - 10 years :( We love them! Also their birthday are only a day apart...they are both 16 weeks Turbo weighs 52 lbs and Lena weighs 46 so they are close in size.
 

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I imagine you could report the breeder to animal control or the SPCA or whoever has jurisdiction over animal abuse in your county. Honestly though, you supported this horrible breeder, which just encourages more irresponsible breeding and ownership. I think if you got out of there with fleas and an ear infection you got off easy. If you can't trust that she gave the pup any shots, how can you trust that she did proper testing of the parents prior to breeding? You've got two giant breed dogs - if the cost of gas and a $77 vet bill are too much for you, you may want to reconsider having them because $177 is just a drop in the bucket of what caring for them properly is going to cost you.
 

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I have a 16 weeks old Mastiff 'Turbo' and we decided to get him a playmate so we drove 4 hrs spent $100. on gas and tolls to get there...at first glance 'Lena' a 16 week St. Bernard looked and acted ok.....but when we took her to the vet...she was infested with fleas and had bacterial ear infections.....so she was put on a pill to rid her of the fleas, antibiotics and ear wash to sooth and clean her ears.... $77.19. The breeder had given us $100. off for the gas and trip but when I sent her the vet bill and asked if she could at least send $50. to help with the cost....she refused....told me if I didn't want the pup to bring her back. What do you think? is it unreasonable to ask for help on the bill for her meds? The vet suggested we start over on the shots because her record keeping wasn't clear and we just want to make sure she has all she needs. I was concerned with all the fleas on this pup and no heart guard....so...we love 'Lena' and we would never take her back. When I went to the kennel to see the parents there were dogs starved for attention hanging on the fence so pitiful and other covered with raw spots due to fleas...she said she was using a spray and they must have broken out....so sad. What can I do to warn people about this breeder?

Just wanted to add....Turbo and Lena hit it off right off the bat...it was like love at first sight! ha ha he won't go out without her and she won't go out without him....they romp and roll and she bites his ears and lips when she has had enough of him mounting her....(he has turned into a Macho dog...lol) I am going to get him neutered in the next month so maybe the testosterone levels will drop and he won't be so driven...she has to get all her shots before she can be spayed. I thought for a moment about the having Saint Mastiff's....awww they would be so cute!! but with the economy not sure they would sell...I just want to give Turbo and Lena both good lives as they will only be with us 8 - 10 years :( We love them! Also their birthday are only a day apart...they are both 16 weeks Turbo weighs 52 lbs and Lena weighs 46 so they are close in size.
If you had purchased a puppy from a responsible breeder and a health issue cropped up that the breeder had honestly overlooked, then I would say it would be reasonable to ask for help with the payment. But you purchased a puppy from an irresponsible breeder, possibly crossing the line into abusive breeder, and you should just chalk it up to not doing your homework and move on.
Like Hambonez says, $77 is a small amount of money for vet care, particularly for a large breed dog. I've spent about $350 in the past two weeks on vet care, will be out another $150 at the end of the month and have the possibility for another $500-600 right after that (my dog was a shelter rescue and has at least been quite healthy so far)

Please please please do NOT even consider breeding these dogs. The female particularly could have many unknown genetic health problems since I seriously doubt the breeder gave a crap about checking for issues before breeding the parent dogs. And if you didn't get the Mastiff on a breeding contract and complete all the proper health checks, he shouldn't be bred either. You'd stand a high chance of adding a half dozen sickly dogs to the shelter system and also risk the life of your female in the pregnancy and whelping process.

Read on "littermate syndrome" - getting two puppy so close in age is generally a bad idea and without putting in the effort to train the separately and give them individual walks and attention (along with walks and attention together) you could have big behavior problems on your hands. You need to train Turbo not to hump Lena. It isn't about being intact or being fixed, it is simply rude dog behavior that a dog has to be taught not to do.

If you think the breeder is being abusive/neglectful, then contact Animal Control for that county.
 

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You've got two giant breed dogs - if the cost of gas and a $77 vet bill are too much for you, you may want to reconsider having them because $177 is just a drop in the bucket of what caring for them properly is going to cost you.
Especially ones that come from questionable backgrounds :/
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Oh...believe me I know all about the expense of having (2) giant breed puppies just wanted to know your opinion not to get a lecture...this is my first experience and I am still learning....we spend individual and together (pack) attention with both turbo and lena...they are in training (and so are we) ha ha we want to take them all the way through the training and hopefully get their Canine Good Citizen Certification so that we can visit nursing homes and reading groups for children.

Well..maybe I shouldn't have supported this breeder but I am glad that I got Lena out of there.... Turbo is ready for the intermediate class and Lena is just starting at the very beginning as she didn't even have a name....so was never called or anything..probably just kept out in the kennels.

They romp and roll and have frisky play for a little time and then usually they will lay down side by side and rest.....Lena takes control if he annoys her.
 

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. . . The vet suggested we start over on the shots because her record keeping wasn't clear and we just want to make sure she has all she needs.
Over vaccinating puppies can bring on more illness. Please queery this advice from the vet you have used and do some research into over-vaccination.

Lena is 16 weeks, which means she has probably had two rounds of shots, if not three. She does not NEED three more rounds, and in fact three more rounds IF she has had two or three already can be harmful to her.

Keep in mind as well that if your pup is 16 weeks of age and IF you are starting out from no vaccines, then TWO rounds is what is recommended.

. . . For dogs older than 16 weeks of age, two doses of vaccine containing modified live virus (MLV) CPV, CDV, and CAV-2 given 3-4 weeks apart are recommended. After a booster at one year, revaccination is recommended every 3 years thereafter, ideally using a product approved for 3-year administration, unless there are special circumstances that warrant more or less frequent revaccination. Note that recommendations for killed parvovirus vaccines and recombinant CDV vaccines are different from the above.
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/small_animal/internal_medicine/newsletters/vaccination_protocols.cfm

Can you make out the record keeping yourself? Can you clarify with the breeder what she has had? If you have to contact the breeder and get that clarification to do so. It is important for your puppy, especially if she is already dealing with some illness.

I have had a vet claim paperwork wasn't clear, and when I looked at it I knew exactly what shots the breeder had given the pup. The vet was being as ass simply becuz he was upset the shots were given by the breeder . . . which is legal here but many vets hate it that it happens.

I had a vet insist that he had to give a 4 year old foster girl three rounds of shots as he wasn't sure she had her shots as a puppy . . . again another vet upset that the record of the shots given in the past showed that a breeder had given the shots herself. Three shot advice for an adult dog is completely ludicrous if you understand the immune system, therefore I walked and have not used that vet again.

Just as finding a good breeder is difficult, so sometimes is finding a good vet. There are gems and duds in both fields. Importantly, though, you now have to advocate for your dog and extra shots for a puppy do not come without risks.

SOB
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the advice SOB!!!! I didn't feel good about giving the extra vaccines so I will clearify on our next visit and see what she absolutely needs. Turbo is done and will only need the vaccine for Lyme Disease....do you give that to your dogs...the vet said it was optional...we don't live in a wooded area and use Advantix which had tick control in it.

We got Turbo in June at 6 weeks and got Lena in September at 16 weeks from 2 different litters....they have bonded nicely together...but I am reading where you have to watch them bonding with each other and not with you....they are in different crates (but in the same room) and we seperate them often during the day giving them time to play together and time apart....when we go for walks we usually all go together as a family for a pack walk but maybe we should take each dog individually on seperate walks as well...?? The next day after getting Lena I noticed Turbo waited for her when it was time to go outside....and even tho it was cute I want them to be emotionally/mentally strong with this situation as well....so any guidance you can offer will be appreciated.
 

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I DON"T give lyme vaccine to mine, but I live in Alberta and lyme is extremely rare here as are ticks and fleas due to our cold winters. Despite that I DO live in a wooded area and in fact have a corridor where Moose and Deer jump over my fence (I'm on an acreage) and bed down at night. Because of that risk one of my dogs - over thirty years - has had a tick found and unfortunately that was followed by a round with lyme disease. I still wouldn't advise that vaccine for low risk areas . . . so it depends on what you think the risk might be.

My guidance re two pups together probably wouldn't be very good. I did that once taking in two 7 month old male littermates and I took no precautions and both those pups turned into great dogs. I LOVED that experience. I believe the best advice is that you should take time out to train and walk each one separately, and as well give them together time.

It is a BLAST watching them play when they are both of similar ages and energy levels.

SOB
 

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I think I will pass on the Lyme vaccine.... next up is neuter for turbo and spay for lena....that should be fun...ha ha trying to keep them rested so they don't tear stitches out... we will be doing that over the next couple months...maybe sooner for turbo as he has a one track mind...lol Yes!!! it is so funny to watch them play....they grab the same rope and will tug with each other..then they romp and roll around....I really believe it's been a good thing for both of them so far...lena was very scared/timid and over the past few days she has relaxed and turbo was very needy and not that he didn't get any attention either...and now he is more relaxed (well except for being Macho Man)...so I feel it's going in the right direction but it's going to take day to day care to keep them balanced in the right way. We only have a little window of time as their lives will be shorter than other breeds and we just want to enjoy them!!!! (our BIG babies)
 

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You should ask who the vet was and get vaccination info from them. You got te first dog at six weeks of age? Yikes. Please, do some research on finding a reputable breeder and where NOT to get a dog from before you get more. When you walked in to buy the second dog, you saw dogs begging for attention, that had sore spots, fleas, yet you still got a dog? Why are you surprised your pup had fleas, when other dogs did?
 

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Getting a dog at 6 weeks isn't even legal in PA.

Anyway, you learned a not at all expensive lesson (seriously, $77 for an ear infection and flea treatment? I paid $101.30 just for the ear infection!) about bad breeders, you have dogs you like who will hopefully grow up to be healthy and temperamentally sound.

Stick around the boards, and particularly look up "littermate syndrome". I know your dogs aren't littermates, but it applies to any two puppies close in age raised in the same household.
 

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It wasn't a surprise she had fleas it was just the whole picture and then the ear infections etc. One we saw Lena we just wanted her anyway...she is a sweet puppy and I didn't want to leave her there then....and like i said she is starting to be less scared and timid with Turbo so it's all working out. I feel bad for the dogs that are left....and while we were there 12 puppies were just born and 4 male 10 weeks old pups were in another kennel....
 

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It wasn't a surprise she had fleas it was just the whole picture and then the ear infections etc. One we saw Lena we just wanted her anyway...she is a sweet puppy and I didn't want to leave her there then....and like i said she is starting to be less scared and timid with Turbo so it's all working out. I feel bad for the dogs that are left....and while we were there 12 puppies were just born and 4 male 10 weeks old pups were in another kennel....
Call Animal Control for that county.

I'll explain the reaction you're getting in this thread, and trust me we're being restrained because you seem like a nice person who just doesn't know any better.

Many of us here have rescues, including myself. Many rescues start out life as those puppies that you saw. Breeders like that don't care what they breed, they just want money. That's why the puppies get no vet care, that would cut into profits. (If you're breeding ethically, you lose money on every litter.) Every time a person buys a puppy from these breeders, even with the very best of intentions to save that one puppy from suffering, they encourage that breeder to do it again and again and again, making more and more and more puppies and their parents suffer.

It's so frustrating to us. We're not mad at you, you didn't know any better. You're a kindhearted person who wanted a puppy. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just that, how?! How can we let the world know not to buy from people like that? Even if it breaks your heart, even if the puppies are cute, even if you really want one. I just . . . it's frustrating.

Let me be clear, though, no one is mad at you. I would just hope that, in the future, you know better, that's all. Please do join our community. We have a lot to offer and I bet you do, too.
 

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Not apologizing for a byb, but fleas have been very bad in TX this year, don't know about Ohio. Also, byb aren't expected to know about ear infections, which are easy for outside, long-eared dogs to get, under those conditions. Other than cost, I don't consider those to be major issues for a byb dog... easy to take care of.

My personal opinion is that you should keep the dogs separated, like you have been, and do separate early training. However, I think walking them together will be good training, so that you can learn to keep them walking well, without distracting each other. If you can't keep them from playing during the walk, then you can walk them separately for a few weeks, as you improve their walking. And, I think it's important to let them play together as much as they can, to keep them tired... but also try to socialize them with other dogs...
 

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We do have them in seperate crates but in the same room... I can move one in a different room but at this point they seem to be doing ok that way...out of sight out of mind...I've been alternating them outside at times so I can work with them individually without the other one to distract. turbo has a nice foundation as he is almost done with his first puppy class but Lena will take a little longer as she doesn't respond to her name yet....she does sit and touch my hand so it's a start. I've had to put ear cleaner in her ears and that has really set us back a little because she won't come to me at all after that...so it's going to be a slow process but that's OK I'll just keep working with her everyday. I also walk them together and they walk real good as a pack and then I also take them individually. turbo is a Mastiff so he can be very stubborn about his walk and even tho saints can be stubborn she loves to walk so that is going well... if she goes in her crate it's really hard to get her to come out of it at times....it just feels safe to her. so I think we are on the right track.
 

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I think that htis is a really relevant link for this thread. What's done is done but for the future, and for anybody reading, this may help - I consider him a "rescue."
not to be rude, but... my sentiments EXACTLY. Force these breeders to dump a 16 week old litter of puppies at a rescue and adopt the dog from the rescue. If that happened, the breeders would rethink their money-making venture pretty quickly, because they just made zero profit.

Ideal? Absolutely not. But neither is purchasing from the breeder.

And if enough pet stores go out of business, Hunte will go out of business. And when that happens, thousands of puppy mills will simply shutter their doors. There will be a massive increase in dog auctions for six months and then they’ll blessedly go away. And THAT is the true end we want.
 

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not to be rude, but... my sentiments EXACTLY. Force these breeders to dump a 16 week old litter of puppies at a rescue and adopt the dog from the rescue. If that happened, the breeders would rethink their money-making venture pretty quickly, because they just made zero profit.

Ideal? Absolutely not. But neither is purchasing from the breeder.

I really do agree. I don't think after the time a puppy has been purchased by a well meaning, but unaware, buyer is the time to be harsh (which I think we all agree), but bottom line ? They're being rewarded for the care they aren't taking from the dogs. There is no incentive not to turn around and do it again. Getting the puppy for free, okay - (and it happens). Still not perfect, since occasionally these people will twitch a bit at surrendering to the shelter and having to face the possibility of their pups dying - but okay.

I consider exactly one of my dogs a rescue - the one that I found in a commercial trash dumpster, when she was four weeks old. Jack came from his breeder, after he was done showing. Bug came from a craigslist ad. Her circumstances weren't ideal (at *all*), and I didn't pay for her, but truthfully: no lives were saved in her adoption. Not hers, not a dog that would take her place in a shelter or rescue organization.
 
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