Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
693 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have never heard of this. I had asked a local behaviorist about how to get our 2 males to like each other ( i asked here too and got great advice). She recommended Shaping. Basic google says its breaking 1 big step into smaller. Im not sure how that would work in this case. Has anyone heard of it or tried it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,194 Posts
I would assume she means to mark and reward calm non-aggressive behavior and gradually give the dogs more access to each other.

"Shaping" is a pretty broad training term, and it's not that easy to deal with DA dogs, so I would ask the behaviorist for more specific help so make sure you understand fully.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,193 Posts
I've heard of it and I understand how it works, but I wouldn't trust it if the aggression is real or severe.

It's ideal for dogs who don't like each other but won't tear each other apart. In those cases, it can be really effective. However, if your dogs put stitches in each other, it wouldn't be worth the risk (for me).

Management is my best friend.

The "problem" with training/shaping out aggression is that it will look like you have succeeded until there's some weird trigger and everyone gets torn apart. Too high a price for me. My dog is perfect literally more than 99% of the time. His last outburst was 2 1/2 years ago. If I decided that I had fixed him, we wouldn't have this long stretch of success. Train what you can, manage the rest. Never trust that true aggression has been resolved. Assume it hasn't and keep everyone safe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
693 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
See i dont even know what id mark and reward? Theres no pattern. Elvin can walk by Opies crate and be fine. Even sniff each other....but then the next day Elvin looks at him funny and Opie is growling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,193 Posts
You mark any appropriate interaction, like looking at each other without hard eye contact or growling. You mark and reward any time the dogs approach each other. You mark peaceful proximity.

You want to end up in a place where the presence of the other dog predicts reward, so the dogs (in theory) want to be in each others' presence so they get rewarded. They come to see the other dog as a good thing, a way to earn reward.

It's murky. I was working with a dog aggressive rescue and the group paid for a behaviorist for me so I could better train the dog.

However, in my mind, management is safer for dogs who really do damage. Clicking for peace and proximity seems better advised for dogs who engage in "snark-fests" where things sound bad and some hair flies but no one is getting sewed up or breaking off teeth in the other dog.
This seemed, in my situation, like putting a Band-Aid on an arterial bleed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,722 Posts
See i dont even know what id mark and reward? Theres no pattern. Elvin can walk by Opies crate and be fine. Even sniff each other....but then the next day Elvin looks at him funny and Opie is growling.
There doesn't need to be a pattern for you to reward. Any time you know the dogs will be near each other, make sure you have treats with you. In the example above, you would reward them both when you walk Elvin past the crate and they are both calm. The next day when they are being weird and growling, you don't reward, but you'd increase the distance between the dogs until they are both calm. Then you can reward them both for being calm.

I do think it's a good idea to reward any time they are near each other and calm, but if they have been fighting, I would always separate out of sight of each other when not supervised. If they are going to be in the same room, make sure they are both on leash or in crates. Then reward just for being calm in the same room.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
693 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Ahh, see that makes sense.

I will never leave them alone together unsupervised unless i somehow knew beyond a doubt the issue was fixed, and it may never be. However, if the house is burning down and i need to get them both out on leashes, i cant have them killing each other at the same time. So at least a little tolerance would be good.

Right now Opie is out and Elvin is in- Opie doesnt even pay attention to him in the crate. Its when Opie is in his crate and Elvin walks by that there is tension. In the past they have gone after each other when hubby came home or at feeding time (not with food down but getting their food ready)...outside has never been an issue. The last time we tried them together, they were fine a few days and even laid on opposite ends of the couch but as soon as Opie had a trigger, hell broke loose and we said " NOPE" and never tried again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,722 Posts
Since Opie has an issue with Elvin walking past the crate, I would simulate this in a training session. Put Opie on the crate and have Elvin on leash. Walk Elvin past the crate, but at a distance where Opie doesn't have an issue with it. Reward Opie every time you walk Elvin past his crate, so he will learn to enjoy having Elvin walk past the crate. Over several short sessions, you can gradually walk Elvin closer and closer to the crate. Stay at a distance where Opie is perfectly comfortable though.

And if Elvin is loose and he happens to walk past the crate with no reaction from Opie, throw Opie a treat for being calm.

They may not be able to be loose unsupervised, but like you said, they should be able to tolerate each other for short periods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,368 Posts
am definitely with trainingjunkie my first "blood shedder" Chesca 2 year old "girl" fighter I brought into my pack she put puncture marks in the other girls and boys.. and she really wasn't even a good fighter.. just an instigator that had no control of her mouth she strike with a full bite as her first action.. So happy the rest of my group were so above her and pity her. That was easy management of only with supervision because her stalk to a bite was so long drawn out I could see it a mile away and redirect her. She lived in a kennel when I wasn't there to supervise her.. Adele is my second, she isn't the instigator , but she would finish it quickly with death.... no brainier there she will have to be contained to groups of dogs she gets a long with in the house hold. The other dogs were not blood shredders, it was a maturity stage from younger to older they had to get threw, and a lot of it was growing through it. they were separated until they didn't needed.. challenging can turn into scuffling turn in to fighting turn into blood shed.. depending on the dogs.. some dogs can scuffle it out and one of them decides they don't want none of that and it's over done ... Majority are not done .. For me I separate them. let them live happy seperate lives take that time to continue to help them grow as an individual in to strong confident dogs. give them something else in life to have a purpose for then daily dog fighting.. It takes strong confident individual dogs to tolerate other dogs that try to provoke a fight, and not care to focus in on other dogs to be the one to provoke a fight.. So why not spend your training time all about the getting the best individual in that dog,,, because it's the individual is the only one that makes the decision to fight or not..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
693 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
am definitely with trainingjunkie my first "blood shedder" Chesca 2 year old "girl" fighter I brought into my pack she put puncture marks in the other girls and boys.. and she really wasn't even a good fighter.. just an instigator that had no control of her mouth she strike with a full bite as her first action.. So happy the rest of my group were so above her and pity her. That was easy management of only with supervision because her stalk to a bite was so long drawn out I could see it a mile away and redirect her. She lived in a kennel when I wasn't there to supervise her.. Adele is my second, she isn't the instigator , but she would finish it quickly with death.... no brainier there she will have to be contained to groups of dogs she gets a long with in the house hold. The other dogs were not blood shredders, it was a maturity stage from younger to older they had to get threw, and a lot of it was growing through it. they were separated until they didn't needed.. challenging can turn into scuffling turn in to fighting turn into blood shed.. depending on the dogs.. some dogs can scuffle it out and one of them decides they don't want none of that and it's over done ... Majority are not done .. For me I separate them. let them live happy seperate lives take that time to continue to help them grow as an individual in to strong confident dogs. give them something else in life to have a purpose for then daily dog fighting.. It takes strong confident individual dogs to tolerate other dogs that try to provoke a fight, and not care to focus in on other dogs to be the one to provoke a fight.. So why not spend your training time all about the getting the best individual in that dog,,, because it's the individual is the only one that makes the decision to fight or not..
Im not into the whole pack thing and none of mine are fighters. The 2x they simply got into a tiff and Opie happened to somehow have an advantage over Elvin and took it too far. He did stop, he didnt keep going with the intent to kill him. This isnt a stage or phase. I dont want to live separate, happy lives. They need to be together if possible. He is trained. For 3 years we NEVER, EVER had a single problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,186 Posts
Im not into the whole pack thing and none of mine are fighters. The 2x they simply got into a tiff and Opie happened to somehow have an advantage over Elvin and took it too far. He did stop, he didnt keep going with the intent to kill him. This isnt a stage or phase. I dont want to live separate, happy lives. They need to be together if possible. He is trained. For 3 years we NEVER, EVER had a single problem.
Unfortunately, what we want and what we get are often very different things.

In nature, dogs don't live in static groups. They drift into and out of partnerships and pairings and packs as the wind blows. We're really asking a lot when we stick two dogs together and expect them to be friends for their entire lives. It's just not something dogs are made for. Sometimes they do it, sometimes they don't. Can you manage behavior and have a largely peaceful, if heavily managed, life? Maybe, if you're lucky. I wouldn't expect it, though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,368 Posts
it's a word people (pack, flock, group... only a multiple description of many in one common area or house hold.. lets chill on it....... :) :) :) :)

dogs in allowed to leave can pick and choose ,, it shouldn't be a punishment to them in life when they can't..... tossing dogs/animals out to where ever they end up in life for the rest of their life because they not an angelic fit.. I personally just can't do to them. Am always so deeper closer to the ones who had rough patches... for all the one on one time working with them seeing them develop into an awesome individual, and appreciation to see an animal who has real individual conflicts work with you and make the best out of them by learning to follow rules and get along with the environment.

Never forget the day I let Smokey Major and Darien out the back of the basement into the back yard at my mentors house not knowing she was out in front cleaning kennels letting dogs loose that would have acess to the back area.. Darien went to run from the back of the house around to the front to go to Mary and at the exact same time a dog came around the corner coming our direction.. Darien and this dog almost colided... It was a visiting dog, not one that Darien knew..

Did Darien chase the dog down to fight it... NO all my dogs ran back to the back door to be let in """' because it wasn't their time to be in the yard """" when other dogs are loose.... " daily schedule ability to learn the details.... yay for Darien without even trying to teach him not to be DA,,,,, other life skills as an individual and maturity happened.... it's no miracle, not a fancy training trick... dogs are good creatures at the core... Darien saying hey this is not my thing any more I can do other things that are more important to me .. was Darien 100%...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
693 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
By pack i meant leader/dominance/etc not that they dont have a group setting.
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top