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Discussion Starter #1
I have an odd request. I am wanting to do some private training with Bridgette so we can work on getting her CGC. I found this lady through my searching and I think she seems really great! I have emailed her she is willing to meet call me to go over her techniques and answer any questions I have.

What I am wondering is if anyone would mind checking out her site and giving me your opinion...I just want a second opinion....thanks!

http://www.robynsdogtraining.com/
 

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I'm seeing she uses negative reenforcement, that may not be what you want. I don't know. See if you can audit her training courses. If you don't feel comfortable with what you see, don't take the course.

Here are some links to find other trainers in your area.

http://www.iaabc.org/
http://www.ccpdt.org/
http://www.apdt.com/
 

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I would ask for a definition of this statement: "A balance of positive and negative reinforcement is used to teach the dog. All my training methods are proven physically and psychologically sound." It could be just a bad choice of words, but it's a red flag to me.

I also didn't see any mention of credentials.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Here are some links to find other trainers in your area.

http://www.iaabc.org/
http://www.ccpdt.org/
http://www.apdt.com/
Those were great links. I found some people right near me too. I think I will check them out as well. Can you tell me what CTC and CPDT mean? (CPDT is Certified Pet Dog Trainer right? Is that a more official certification?)

I would ask for a definition of this statement: "A balance of positive and negative reinforcement is used to teach the dog. All my training methods are proven physically and psychologically sound." It could be just a bad choice of words, but it's a red flag to me.


I agree...that was one of the reasons I wanted a second opinion because I thought that was a little off. When I actually talk her her in person I will be asking for her clarification.

I have looked at the links cshellenberger posted and some of the people I found from those searches seem much more certified.


I also didn't see any mention of credentials.
I had thought this was credentials...but after seeing some of the other trainer's credentials...this just looks like experience....?

Robyn Werhan began training dogs in obedience and modifying their behavior in 1980 in Tempe, AZ, where she was raised. She moved to Flagstaff in 1990. In 1994 she began competing in AMBOR* sanctioned obedience trials, earning a CD (Companion Dog Title) and CGC (Canine Good Citizen Award) with her partner, Cossack. That same year she and Cossack joined the Flagstaff Kennel Club and their K-9 Drill Team. Since then, they have been in numerous programs, educational demonstrations and parades. In 1998 she joined the Delta Society and currently volunteers as a Pet Partner, providing AAA/T (Animal Assisted Activities/ Therapy). *The American Mixed Breed Obedience Registration
 

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i would stay clear of this trainer. Big time red flags are up on this one. Negative reinforcement is not a good thing for any dog. As the old adage goes, 'you get more bees with honey that you do with vinager." This applies to animals as well. When they receive positve attention they are more willing to perform or to listen. Dogs that are trained with negativity learn to mistrust humans in general never mind just their human mom and dad.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
i would stay clear of this trainer. Big time red flags are up on this one. Negative reinforcement is not a good thing for any dog. As the old adage goes, 'you get more bees with honey that you do with vinager." This applies to animals as well. When they receive positve attention they are more willing to perform or to listen. Dogs that are trained with negativity learn to mistrust humans in general never mind just their human mom and dad.
Oh yeah, I totally agree! I am very curious to know what she means by negative reinforcement. That being said...I'm wondering if she means leash corrections? I never really saw them as a bad thing, but aren't leash corrections negative reinforcement?
 

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I never really saw them as a bad thing, but aren't leash corrections negative reinforcement?
A leash correction is a positive punishment. A negative reinforcement would be like an e-collar. Don't be confused by the positives and negatives before the punishments and reinforcements. Positive just means adding something, and negative would mean to take away something. So to force a dog to walk nicely you add a leash correction. Or to force a dog to sit nicely, you take away the aversive (like the current from an e-collar) once it sits.
 

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A leash correction is a positive punishment. A negative reinforcement would be like an e-collar. Don't be confused by the positives and negatives before the punishments and reinforcements. Positive just means adding something, and negative would mean to take away something. So to force a dog to walk nicely you add a leash correction. Or to force a dog to sit nicely, you take away the aversive (like the current from an e-collar) once it sits.
i agree curbside
antoher negative reinforcement would be the pinch collar. Yanking on a leash instead of coaxing is another negative. Postive to me would be giving a treat or even kind words to the dog would be a great form of positive inforcment. A light hand on a leash while correcting is also a positive as curbside has pointed out. Many people thought think that negative punishment entails the use of force, yelling, rough handling are all negative uses of training.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
A leash correction is a positive punishment. A negative reinforcement would be like an e-collar. Don't be confused by the positives and negatives before the punishments and reinforcements. Positive just means adding something, and negative would mean to take away something. So to force a dog to walk nicely you add a leash correction. Or to force a dog to sit nicely, you take away the aversive (like the current from an e-collar) once it sits.
Ah! :eek: I guess I should know that as I have been studying psychology as a minor, but then again I have always mixed those up!

So really anything she is doing as negative reinforcement is probably not going to be a good thing? I mean if e-collars are NR then I suppose I am not against them for some dogs, but I cannot see myself allowing on to be used on Bridgette regardless...
 

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i agree curbside
antoher negative reinforcement would be the pinch collar. Yanking on a leash instead of coaxing is another negative. Postive to me would be giving a treat or even kind words to the dog would be a great form of positive inforcment. A light hand on a leash while correcting is also a positive as curbside has pointed out. Many people thought think that negative punishment entails the use of force, yelling, rough handling are all negative uses of training.
Actually, the pinch, e-collar and the leash yank are possitive punishments. A negative re-inforcement would be removing something that is causing the dog NOT to accomplish whatever is being asked, like taking away a distraction. The four corners of operant conditioning have been discussed repeatedly, and in that context as someone said, negative and possitive are not related to bad and good, but to substract and add.

A couple of days ago I think it was Carla who posted a link to an article of why the term "all possitive training" is inaccurate and misleading. "Possitive only" trainers make use of negative re-inforcement and negative punishment, the only thing left out of the equation is possitive punishment.

The statement everybody is refering to, in my opinion shows ignorance as to the use of terminology. I would think that a professional dog trainer, whether they use operant conditioning or not would be aware of how to use those terms.
 

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I would think that a professional dog trainer, whether they use operant conditioning or not would be aware of how to use those terms.
That's why people are so confused about the e-collar. Not only can it be used as a positive punisher, but it's also can be used as a negative reinforcer too.

I use to think it was funny when people called me evil when I said I used a lot of negative punishment when training Elsa. Who knew ostracism was so evil? LOL
 

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That's why people are so confused about the e-collar. Not only can it be used as a positive punisher, but it's also can be used as a negative reinforcer too.

I use to think it was funny when people called me evil when I said I used a lot of negative punishment when training Elsa. Who knew ostracism was so evil? LOL
How do you use it as a negative re-inforcer?

I read about a trainer using it as a possitive re-inforcer, using just the paging feature, he conditioned his dog instead of click & treat, to page & treat. That solved the question many people ask about clicker training in situations wher ethe dog is supossed to be away from you.
 

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Negative reinforcement using an e-collar example:
The collar is set at a very low setting during training. You ask the dog for sit while the current is flowing, and once the dog sits the current is turned off. Once the dog is sitting regularly, the collar is no longer used. When the dog now sits, he thinks he did it so fast that he avoided the initial current. Current taken away = negative. Used to reinforce sit.

Positve punishment example:
Dog sees snake. Dog chases snake. Owner zaps dog. Dog jumps away from snake. Current added = positive. Used to punish act of chase.
 

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Negative reinforcement using an e-collar example:
The collar is set at a very low setting during training. You ask the dog for sit while the current is flowing, and once the dog sits the current is turned off. Once the dog is sitting regularly, the collar is no longer used. When the dog now sits, he thinks he did it so fast that he avoided the initial current. Current taken away = negative. Used to reinforce sit.

Positve punishment example:
Dog sees snake. Dog chases snake. Owner zaps dog. Dog jumps away from snake. Current added = positive. Used to punish act of chase.
I thought a negative re-inforcer was removing something that was keeping the dog from performing a behaviour, but hey, if it works.....
 

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Those were great links. I found some people right near me too. I think I will check them out as well. Can you tell me what CTC and CPDT mean? (CPDT is Certified Pet Dog Trainer right? Is that a more official certification?)
Certified Trainer & Behavior Counselor (CTC)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I just want to say thanks to all of you for your advice and help. An ENOURMOUS thanks to Carla for putting those links up! I think I have just found the best trainer/behaviourist!

His methods are based strictly off of the NILIF method. He makes it 100% clear that he does not use force, pain, fear or intimidation. He, instead, uses rewards, rewarding alternative behaviours, extinguishment of unwanted behaviour through ignoring and class 2 punishment (meaning taking something away that the dog wants...like attention or play time).

He certainly has credentials...
Tom Kirshbaum, CTC, CPDT
Loyal Friends, LLC Trainer/Counselor, Flagstaff, AZ
Certified Professional Dog Trainer Cert. # 3061206
APDT #67782
IAABC Affiliate #540AF
IIACAB #066

Sounds MUCH better right?
 
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