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Let us please keep this civil and polite. We all have differing opinions, let's respect our rights to have them. If you don't agree with what some one says, just take a deep breath and move on.

Now to the topic:

I don't under the point of Schutzhund. I do agree that a lot of dogs benefit from having tasks that occupy their time and exercise both their minds and their bodies but I don't really understand the appeal of this sport (I refrained from using quotations!).

Why do people want such an aggressive dog? Why do people want to make a dog so aggressive?

I don't really understand the training either, since most of it doesn't seem all that "nice". Why would some one enjoy a sport where most people train the dog to feel threatened to the point where the dog wants to attack? And how is the sport enjoyable if you're waving those sticks in the dog's face (I've even seen them being used to actually hit the dog) and smacking them on the floor around the dog and making the dog feel like he's going to be beaten? You know you're probably not going to hit the dog and if you do, hopefully by accident, which I imagine happens often, it may not hurt (I really don't know if it does or not) but the dog doesn't know any of this. And choke collars, prong collars and shock collars abound in this sport as well. So... What is the appeal?

I could envision training using positive reinforcement to get the dog to attack. Using back chaining and reinforcing harder and harder bites and finally a full out attack but still, as I mentioned above, why would you want such an aggressive dog and why would you want to make a dog aggressive?

Apart from the sport, I realize that some people use dogs for actual protection, not sport. But in most places, if a criminal intends harm, he's likely packing a gun or less likely a knife. So what chance does even the "toughest" protection dog stand then?

Since police dogs are probably going to come up at some point, I just wanted to say that this is kind of different and not related. But if it's going to be brought up, from what I've seen, they mostly use police dogs to go after people in hiding or to take down runners.
 

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Shutzhund is a GAME, a dog trained in ShutzH is not trained in protection and makes a poor protection dog. In ShutzH the dog is specifically taught to bite a sleeve (have you ever played tug with a dog? That's what they do in a bit larger scale). An aggressive dog cannot compete in ShutzH, the dog needs to be obedient and see it as a game. Some dogs have a high defensive drive and then have to be taught that it's a game and not be defensive, but PLAY with the helper. It's more common to find positive trainers in ShutzH than corrective trainers. I have never heard anyone in ShutzH train a forced retrieve, for example, which is more than I can say about AKC obedience. ;)

I have done a little ShutzH training with my girl because she loves it and it's a great way to train obedience a little differently than usual ... and we LOVE the tracking.

Here is a you Tube of the obedience part of a positively (mostly clicker) trained dog at the World Championship in Finland 2010

THIS is why people train Shutzhund
 

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The dog is not trained to bite a person ... the dog is taught to bite a sleeve held in a very specific way. It's a form of obedience. The dog can't bite until the helper holds the sleeve in the exact position.

Have you ever played tug with a dog? Do you then have the dog wait for you to get ready before he/she can grab the tug? That's what the bite face in ShutzH is.
 

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How can you say that that dog is clicker trained when their other videos showed dogs on prong collars and using those sticks?

The dog is trained to bite the sleeve ON a person. This is biting a person.
 

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How can you say that that dog is clicker trained when their other videos showed dogs on prong collars and using those sticks?

The dog is trained to bite the sleeve ON a person. This is biting a person.
I haven't looked at the other videos ... but this video was posted by someone else than the handler/dog team. One of the handlers at this world championship pointed out that the dog is clicker trained.

I hold the ball or rug when I play tug and my dog bites it ... In Shutzhund the dog first bites a rug, then a pillow, then a sleeve the helper is holding in both hands ... then the sleeve on the arm. The dog goes for the sleeve, not the person. If you take the sleeve off the person the dog's going to go for the sleeve, not the person.
 

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I don't train or compete in this sport, but can answer some of your questions about the aggression. Firstly a fearful dog has NO place in protection, period. Yes dogs have been pushed as with anything you get bad trainers. Properly trained protection dogs react to a threat. Even as young puppies they don't back down. Like a good Herder, this is bred into them. Bite is bred in as well. Good strong full grip, not letting go, notchewing the tug or sleeve, are things that can be improved, but you look for that on young pups.

Using a stick, whip, etc, making eye contact, yelling, really gets the fight going. Once the dog commits, you will see decoy trainers using their hands and stick to rub, tap, even grab loose skin like scruffing, which encourages a harder bite. They rub the faces, as you do not want a dog to let go and really bite. They dog wins the sleeve. This begins as a game, tug of war, with puppies. If you have spent much time with these type of dogs, you know how fast they escalate into extreme drives. So this is not really making aggressive dogs, rather than properly teaching WHEN and how to control it. Seriously, could you imagine the everyday average pet owner with one of these dogs that was NOT trained?

Every dog is different. One of my females, bite trained, is a sweetheart. She bites like an alliance Gatorade, outs, the minute I say 'done ' she is crawling in the decoys lap and licking his face. This is a huge game for her, but she has a strong, dominant personality.
My retired male, much the same, just more powerful, not as much fight though. Both of these dogs are taken out in public, play with children, have awesome obedience, just great dogs. They are always supervised, not because they are trained for protection, because they are dogs.
Just got a new dog on Tuesday. He has had bitework started. He is aggressive. Does not out, I'm working on teaching a trade now, but when he has the sleeve, the only thing more important is another sleeve or decoy. Came with a prong collar, a muzzle on, and was told you have to 'knock him in the head to let go', with a laugh, yet I don't think it was a joke. Extremely intense dog. Just trying to open the crate door was a job as he was biting the bars at anyone he saw. We have serious work to do here, but have already made fast friends.
Protection dogs don't stand a chance against a gun or knife. They do buy time in this situation, and do a good distraction. A 70 lb set of teeth tugging and jerking you to the ground, makes it hard to aim. For true protection, buy a gun.

The dogs with LE, yes usually they take down fleeing suspects. usually hidden ones are warned amply to "say something now, or ill release the dog!" . Its a very different deal for a dog to chase a person, and to stand and fight when it comes down to it. I am surprised at the amount of people who believe their dog will really protect them if they are attacked. Sure the dog may bark and growl, get between you and whoever, but but pressure on, and at best you have a fear biter in most cases. Have a real decoy trainer test this. This is the exact reason why the dogs are trained, if they have the proper drives and no fear.
As far as the equipment, I use a flat collar and lead, a harness, but mostly they are off lead. When correctly used, e collars, prongs are effective. I just personally have not had a need for them, or clickers, yet, but everyone has their preferences.
 

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How can you say that that dog is clicker trained when their other videos showed dogs on prong collars and using those sticks?

The dog is trained to bite the sleeve ON a person. This is biting a person.
This dog is trained to bite the sleeve. Big difference in equipment focused dogs,a and ones trained to actually bite the person. Usually dogs in this fashion will not bite at all, if they don't have their target. This is why the dog gets the sleeve as a reward, and does not continue fighting the person. This is where protection, LE, and other sports come in, you train on hidden sleeves, suits, leg sleeves etc. So this is what teaches the dog to bite a person, and not be equipment focused.
 

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If a dog is trained to attack a perceived threat, then the dog is attacking out of fear, fear for their wellbeing or their owner's wellbeing. That's not a game. I don't see how that's humane. Exploiting an animal's fear. I don't see how using a stick ON a dog is humane, nor do I see how grabbing the scruff is humane either, in an attempt to further agitate the dog to bite harder or to bite and hold.

I didn't realize that this kind of training is commonly accepted and I think I'd rather have this thread closed now.
 

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When you start a thread, and you don't agree with the civil responses you get, we do not close it for you.

That's not how forums work.
 

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If a dog is trained to attack a perceived threat, then the dog is attacking out of fear, fear for their wellbeing or their owner's wellbeing. That's not a game. I don't see how that's humane. Exploiting an animal's fear. I don't see how using a stick ON a dog is humane, nor do I see how grabbing the scruff is humane either, in an attempt to further agitate the dog to bite harder or to bite and hold.
<snip>
I don't know enough about protection work or ring sports to comment on that, but I can tell you that in ShutzH there's NO fear involved ... the dog is PLAYING and trained to do it in a specific way. The stick comes in late in training and the dog is conditioned to see it as positive and exciting, it means it gets to play tug with the helper. All helpers I've ever seen work with a dog pets the dog with the stick and just 'wave it around' for a very long time, only the more advanced dogs are hit with it after extensive conditioning. I have never seen a helper grab the scruff, I've seen many of them stroke the dog over the head and under the chin to entice it to keep the hold.
 

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I didn't realize that it's "civil" to condone hitting dogs with sticks and waving them in their faces and smacking them around a dog's body. If there is no fear of sticks, if they aren't perceived as threats, then it makes the sticks pretty useless and they wouldn't be used.

If you won't close this thread, then that's fine. I'll unwatch it. I don't put up with animal abuse under ANY name or excuse. And I'm quite disappointed that the moderators will. What's the point of having all the +R threads pinned in this forum? For show? To look good?
 

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Let us please keep this civil and polite. We all have differing opinions, let's respect our rights to have them. If you don't agree with what some one says, just take a deep breath and move on.

<snip>
... so this statement only goes one way?
 

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I didn't realize that it's "civil" to condone hitting dogs with sticks and waving them in their faces and smacking them around a dog's body. If there is no fear of sticks, if they aren't perceived as threats, then it makes the sticks pretty useless and they wouldn't be used.

If you won't close this thread, then that's fine. I'll unwatch it. I don't put up with animal abuse under ANY name or excuse. And I'm quite disappointed that the moderators will. What's the point of having all the +R threads pinned in this forum? For show? To look good?
Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it abuse. The dogs are taught to work in adverse conditions, conditions that real life presents to them if they are doing protection work, become military dogs or police dogs.

Let us please keep this civil and polite. We all have differing opinions, let's respect our rights to have them. If you don't agree with what some one says, just take a deep breath and move on.

<snip>
So you think reporting your own post and asking the thread be closed when people disagree with you is being 'civil'? Sorry but that's not how it works, in real life or on this forum. Give the respect you ask for and it will be returned.
 

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If a dog is trained to attack a perceived threat, then the dog is attacking out of fear, fear for their wellbeing or their owner's wellbeing. That's not a game. I don't see how that's humane. Exploiting an animal's fear. I don't see how using a stick ON a dog is humane, nor do I see how grabbing the scruff is humane either, in an attempt to further agitate the dog to bite harder or to bite and hold.
Well on your opening post you said you did not understand the Schutzhund sport. I totally agree with you that you do not understand the sport. You probably knew this thread was gonna be a bell ringer. I just dabbled in Schutzhund to learn, never titled a dog. While I was dabbling saw some fantastic working dogs.

I like NFL football, love the hard hits , good blocking etc etc. I don't care for hockey as they spend too much time fighting. When I watch fighting it's boxing, etc etc etc. There is no way I want Hockey to stop because I don't care for it. I just don't watch it.
 

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If a dog is trained to attack a perceived threat, then the dog is attacking out of fear, fear for their wellbeing or their owner's wellbeing. That's not a game. I don't see how that's humane. Exploiting an animal's fear. I don't see how using a stick ON a dog is humane, nor do I see how grabbing the scruff is humane either, in an attempt to further agitate the dog to bite harder or to bite and hold.

I didn't realize that this kind of training is commonly accepted and I think I'd rather have this thread closed now.
When you perceive a threat, you feel frightened. I totally understand that. However, not everyone feel frightened when they perceive a threat. Myself for example, there are threats that frighten me, and threats that don't.

Now, I don't know what goes through a dog's mind when he perceives a threat, only the dog could tell you that, but I do know that a dog is not human. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the dog attacks the threat because it's been trained to do so, not out of fear.

I've noticed that you rarely if ever see terriers being used in protection and law enforcement, even though there are surely some terriers physically capable of it. We'd have to ask an expert, but I suspect it's because no one's figured out how to get a terrier to stop fighting on command with 100% reliability.
 

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There is no fear at all when trained correctly. It is an exaggerated game of tug. Ten wewek old puppies engage in this, for fun. Have you been around many malinois or working shepherds? The dogs love it! The dogs are not hit with the stick. They are touched. The dogs have fight drive, which is not fear. A fearful dog has no place in protection.
Have you ever wrestled with a dog? Rough housed? Is that abuse? How about showing a dog? Keeping them case, grooming for hours, using a tiny lead nearly choking them. Come on.
I guess abuse is why all of mine run to the equipment cabinet, grab a sleeve run to me and literally push it into me to play. They are terrified. Why don't they just attack me?
This is obviously something you know nothing about, and its really too bad you have such a closed mind about it. You are more than welcome to come watch us train, and see for yourself.
 

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When you perceive a threat, you feel frightened. I totally understand that. However, not everyone feel frightened when they perceive a threat. Myself for example, there are threats that frighten me, and threats that don't.

Now, I don't know what goes through a dog's mind when he perceives a threat, only the dog could tell you that, but I do know that a dog is not human. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the dog attacks the threat because it's been trained to do so, not out of fear.

I've noticed that you rarely if ever see terriers being used in protection and law enforcement, even though there are surely some terriers physically capable of it. We'd have to ask an expert, but I suspect it's because no one's figured out how to get a terrier to stop fighting on command with 100% reliability.
Airedales were once used. I believe, not sure, that terriers have more animal hunt and fight that actual man fight instinct. Like some dogs and breeds are aloof, not afraid of people.
 

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I've never trained Schutzhund, but I have been around a lot of GSDs, and they LOVE that sort of thing. That's what they were bred for. In fact, if I recall correctly, Schutzhund was designed to test GSDs to make sure they are good representatives of the breed and worthy of being bred.

Is Schutzhund appropriate for every dog? No. Muggsy might have actually really liked it, he certainly loved to play tug, and he loved training overall. Kabota, on the other hand, would be a miserable failure at it. You have to match the dog to the activity.

ETA: As to grabbing the scruff and such being abusive, GSDs are big, physical dogs. Muggsy was half GSD and he loved rough play. If you watched him play with my husband, you might think they were hurting each other, but Muggsy loved it and it never got out of hand.
 
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